A+J=T v.6

[Jô Maltese]

yes very nice Catch! Tyrion also has a ton of similarities to Dareon in D&E.  they are both plagued by their dreams and alcohol constantly

Indeed. Tyrion looks like a mixture of Aegon V and his elder brother Daeron... And he is quite a reader / scholar just like Rhaegar or even Aemon. Could he be a Targaryen ??? No way, this is just confirmation bias...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Indeed. Tyrion looks like a mixture of Aegon V and his elder brother Daeron... And he is quite a reader / scholar just like Rhaegar or even Aemon. Could he be a Targaryen ??? No way, this is just confirmation bias...

lol yeah, totally just in our heads.

 

I posted this before on a previous version of this thread but these 2 quotes from siblings are so similar I dont understand how it could be interpreted any other way.

 

Dany  DWD

"Yes." Her hair was disheveled and her bedclothes all atangle, Dany realized. "Help me dress.  I'll have a cup of wine as well.  To clear my head." To drown my dream.

 

Tyrion DwD

"You are done with drink."

"Wine helps me sleep," Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.

 

 

Targaryens are plagued by their dreams.  As Aemon states; 

 

Sam FFC

"I see them in my dreams Sam.. I see the red star bleeding in the sky.  I still remember red.  I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath.  My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed, every one. " 

 

(just thought of another quote from Tyrion similar to Aemon's)

 

Tyrion DwD

Tyrion listened to Illyrio's snores, the crack of the leather straps, the slow clop clop of the team's ironshod hooves on the hard Valyrian road, but his heart was listening for the beat of leathern wings.

 

 

Then he sees Drogon a few chapters later of course; first POV to see a dragon besides Dany (confirmed to be Drogon by HBO)

 

 

Tyrion DwD

A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog.  The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.

 

 

I would really love it if any of the nay-sayers on this thread would respond to this post. Usually when I make these posts that so obviously support this theory they are totally ignored....... but looks like no one will.

[Criston of House Shapper]

 

 

Just dropping these quotes to highlight how Tyrion shares a trait with a Targaryen (his grandfather?)... The couple of Dunk & Egg often evokes Jorah & Tyrion to me.

 

 

It would be his great-grandfather, but with the incest he still shares approximately 25% of genetic material with Aegon.

[Mithras]

Why?

 

Because if Jon and Tyrion are going to be dragonriders, these dragons have to be Targaryen dragons according to AJT crowd.

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

Because if Jon and Tyrion are going to be dragonriders, these dragons have to be Targaryen dragons according to AJT crowd.

As has been pointed out above -- we don't know for sure that specific dragons were tied to specific bloodlines. But even if they were, these dragon eggs almost certainly came from DS and not Asshai, so they likely are from the remaining cache of eggs left to by the Targs.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^ Either way, if Dany has started a new line of dragons, or if these are leftover Targaryen dragons, anyone who shares blood with her will be able to ride.  And since it is already an established fact that they like BBP, clearly even being separated by 6 generations (back to Aegon IV, 6 on Dany's side, more like 4 on BBP's side) is enough blood ties for them to still like him.  Which is why I think that Quentyn's ties to a BOTD member of house Targaryen must be even more distant, or maybe he just doesn't have 'the right stuff'.

[UnmaskedLurker]

^^ Either way, if Dany has started a new line of dragons, or if these are leftover Targaryen dragons, anyone who shares blood with her will be able to ride.  And since it is already an established fact that they like BBP, clearly even being separated by 6 generations (back to Aegon IV, 6 on Dany's side, more like 4 on BBP's side) is enough blood ties for them to still like him.  Which is why I think that Quentyn's ties to a BOTD member of house Targaryen must be even more distant, or maybe he just doesn't have 'the right stuff'.

Another possibility with the dragons is that maybe there is no specific dragonlord bloodline -- just either dragonblood -- able to bond with any dragon at all from any source -- or no dragonblod -- not able to bond with a dragon of any kind. I don't  know for sure -- maybe there were different dragon bloodlines for different dragonlord bloodlines -- and maybe Dany started a new bloodline through the egg hatching magic -- but no matter which alternative is correct -- these dragons most probably were from the original Targ stash. So that issue is moot under any theory.

 

As to Quentyn, maybe he was about to succeed with Viserion but right before he made the final "binding" move on Viserion, Rhaegal killed him. We cannot know for sure. But again, we know not all Targs could bond, so a Targ blooded person failing (especially one with blood ties as removed as Quentyn) should not be surprising.

[DMC]

Which is why I think that Quentyn's ties to a BOTD member of house Targaryen must be even more distant, or maybe he just doesn't have 'the right stuff'.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean here.  The Martell Targ blood derives from Viserys II and Larra Rogare (Daenerys' two grandparents).  The Plumm Targ blood presumably comes from Viserys/Larra and Aegon III/Daenaera Velaryon, I suppose it could be argued the Plumm blood is more 'potent,' but I don't get distant.

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean here.  The Martell Targ blood derives from Viserys II and Larra Rogare (Daenerys' two grandparents).  The Plumm Targ blood presumably comes from Viserys/Larra and Aegon III/Daenaera Velaryon, I suppose it could be argued the Plumm blood is more 'potent,' but I don't get distant.

You are correct. Based on what we know, the Martells seem to have as much or likely more Targ blood than the Plumms. I think the other part of her statement about the "right stuff" still works (even some mostly full-blooded Targs could not bond). Or what I stated above, which is that maybe he would have bonded but Rhaegal killed him right before he managed to bond.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

damn these DP's!!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean here.  The Martell Targ blood derives from Viserys II and Larra Rogare (Daenerys' two grandparents).  The Plumm Targ blood presumably comes from Viserys/Larra and Aegon III/Daenaera Velaryon, I suppose it could be argued the Plumm blood is more 'potent,' but I don't get distant.

wait what?

Dany's grandparents are Jaehaerys II and Shaera

 

And there is no Martell family tree, where you getting that info from?

ETA: oh you mean the first Daenerys, yes that is where the Martell dragon blood comes from, but we dont know exactly how many generations of Martell's there have been in between is what i was getting at.

 

 

And BBP descends from Aegon IV and Eleana.  that's what Tyrion is talking about with the 'two drops' comment.  WHich is most likely 4 generations back from BBP (given his age).  And since it was straight up 2 targs that he comes from on one side, that would be decidedly a lot more BOTD than Quentyn.

[Mithras]

Oh, again with the "right drop" theory.

 

:rolleyes:

[UnmaskedLurker]

Oh, again with the "right drop" theory.

 

:rolleyes:

That part is not a theory -- but a fact. We know that some Targs -- some basically full-blooded Targs-- were unable to bond with a dragon. So we know being a Targ itself is not enough to be able to bond. We don't  know for sure why some Targs could not bond -- but we know this for sure as it is reported in the side books. That is what is meant by "right drop" -- i.e., whatever it is that allows some Targs to bond and some not to be able to bond. And the books do not make it clear exactly what that is -- but it seems to be related to strength and confidence -- but not certain.

There are many things we don't know for sure. The "right drop" issue is something we know for sure because we know some Targs simply could not bond with a dragon.

[DMC]

ETA: oh you mean the first Daenerys, yes that is where the Martell dragon blood comes from, but we dont know exactly how many generations of Martell's there have been in between is what i was getting at.

 

 

Gotcha, you're saying more generations could have deluded the Martell line. 

 

 

 

And BBP descends from Aegon IV and Eleana.  that's what Tyrion is talking about with the 'two drops' comment.  WHich is most likely 4 generations back from BBP (given his age).  And since it was straight up 2 targs that he comes from on one side, that would be decidedly a lot more BOTD than Quentyn.

 

Yeah that's why I gave the four 'grandparents' from the Plumm line as opposed to the two for the Martells - since other than subsequent generations and Aegon III/Daenaera, the blood 'purity' levels would be identical.

[Consigliere]

What's wrong with the "right drop" theory? The concept almost certainly exists in-story. For example: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon all share the same blood i.e. they have the same parents, grandparents etc. Martin did confirm that all the Stark kids are wargs. Bloodraven tells Bran that his blood is what makes him a Greenseer. So what then elevates Bran, and not any of his siblings, to the status of Greenseer if not the concept of the "right drop?"

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^^^ LOL, because we are not talking about the beloved Starks, but the hated Targaryens. That's the difference.

 

 

 

Gotcha, you're saying more generations could have deluded the Martell line. 

 

 

Yeah that's why I gave the four 'grandparents' from the Plumm line as opposed to the two for the Martells - since other than subsequent generations and Aegon III/Daenaera, the blood 'purity' levels would be identical.

 

oh ok, gothca, so yeah same page :)

[Mithras]

What's wrong with the "right drop" theory?

 

It is an authorial failure. Because it means "I can make whoever I want a dragonrider without being restricted by logic".

 

George may very well go with that but I would call it bad writing and admitting defeat.

[Consigliere]

 

It is an authorial failure. Because it means "I can make whoever I want a dragonrider without being restricted by logic".

 

George may very well go with that but I would call it bad writing and admitting defeat.

 

So if something doesn't play out the way you see it then it is bad writing? Okay.

[Lord Varys]

Thinking about it - there should have been an easy way to find out whether dragonlord blood is necessary to claim a dragon:

 

Let's go into the reign of Viserys I, and assume Alicent Hightower has indeed not a single drop of Targaryen or Valyrian blood. Aegon the Elder, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron all become dragonriders, presumably because their inherited the blood of the dragon through their father, King Viserys I. They did get no such blood from their mother the Queen. Now, Alicent's children are half-Hightower as well as half-Targaryen, and if (magical) smell or something like that causes a dragon to recognize/being drawn to a dragonlord-blooded individual a little bit of 'Hightower impurity' isn't enough to stop a dragon from accepting a rider from such a bloodline.

 

But if the important part in dragonbonding was being raised alongside a dragon, and imprinting a dragon on a human's smell and such, then one should expect that Alicent and her brothers or her father would smell very much like Alicent's children by Viserys I. Yet neither of them became a dragonrider. Yes, they did not try, but it is rather unlikely that no non-Valyrian-in-laws of a dragonlord family ever tried to pull that off. We know that the Yi Tish emperor who married a dragonlord daughter kept a dragon at his court, yet there is no hint that he himself or his kin ever became dragonriders.

 

Somebody would have tried this in the long history of Valyria, and there is no reason to believe that it actually ever worked. If it had worked once or twice or multiple times the Valyrians could have abandoned the stupid incest custom. Not to mention that Valyrian society would have most likely crumbled early on. If everybody can become a dragonrider everybody would have become a dragonrider, especially the Ghiscari during the Ghiscari wars. 

[IceFire125]

I'm still not 100% (about 80%) sure about Tyrion being Aerys', but Martin did lay clues for us, especially after the World book, so the possibility is there.

 

I like this unique connection.

 

Jon With Ygritte

 

“I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

“JON SNOW!” One of the Thenns loomed above them, frowning. “Magnar wants.”

 

Then Martin cuts it off without revealing too much about Jon and Tyrion's connection of dreaming dragons of their own.  But of course if we pay attention in AGOT, we had more than a hint.

 

“What are you reading about?” he asked.

“Dragons,” Tyrion told him.

“What good is that? There are no more dragons,” the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

“So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”

“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

“No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t …”

...

Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

 

I feel like this is what Anne Groel was talking about with regarding how Martin lays clues in 3 steps revelation strategy regarding the connection of Jon and Tyrion's connection of dreaming dragons.

 

1. In AGOT (as quoted above) Tyrion states he dreamed of dragon of his own to Jon, makes the (what we think) assumptions that when he was at Jon's age, he also dreams of dragon of his own.  We don't know if Jon dreams of dragons at this early stage of the series yet.  The part where Jon sharply deny he dreamed of dragons, Martin placed ellipses just for us to not be certain, that there is something that he will reveal later on that will make us question and lead us to a different conclusion. (1st step: Tyrion alleged that Jon also dreamed of dragons, very subtle--Tyrion is of full Lannister blood, he's just talking nonsense, kids dream of dragons all the time)

 

2. Later in ASOS, we learned that Jon just off handedly reveal that he also dreamed of dragons to Ygritte.  The part that says... “I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—” should point you to Tyrion.  So the confirmation/revelation by Martin at this point of the story is, Jon also dreamed of dragons. (2nd step: Jon revealed to Ygritte that Tyrion also dreamed of dragons--signaling that by saying "I had another friend", is subtly and openly admitting that he also dreamed of dragons, thus marking him as someone with Targaryen blood.  To which we learn of the hints that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna through out the books)

 

3. I believe in R+L=J and it's revelation is all but written for me.  I feel that once Jon's true parentage is revealed, there will be some kind of revelation for Tyrion that Martin will do as well. (3rd step: open revelation, clear as day for readers to know that Jon is of Targaryen blood through Rhaegar--thus Jon dreams of dragons because he is of Targaryen blood.  This connects to Tyrion and maybe only to be revealed through him riding a dragon)