A+J=T v.6

[Lost Melnibonean]

As has been pointed out above -- we don't know for sure that specific dragons were tied to specific bloodlines. But even if they were, these dragon eggs almost certainly came from DS and not Asshai, so they likely are from the remaining cache of eggs left to by the Targs.

Yeah, I think you can buy AJT without buying bloodline specific dragons. This specific counterargument is a strawman.

[Lost Melnibonean]

damn these DP's!!

Are you quoting Gatehouse Ami?

[Jô Maltese]

 

It would be his great-grandfather, but with the incest he still shares approximately 25% of genetic material with Aegon.

Yep, my mistake

[Lost Melnibonean]

Oh, again with the "right drop" theory.
 
:rolleyes:

I don't know about the right drop theory but I do think the right dragon needs to bond with the right rider. This is a pretty common fantasy trope, no? Ain't nobody gonna ride Balerion come again save the Mother of Dragons and the Prince that was Promised.

[Jô Maltese]

 

I'm still not 100% (about 80%) sure about Tyrion being Aerys', but Martin did lay clues for us, especially after the World book, so the possibility is there.

 

I like this unique connection.

 

Jon With Ygritte

 

“I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

“JON SNOW!” One of the Thenns loomed above them, frowning. “Magnar wants.”

 

Then Martin cuts it off without revealing too much about Jon and Tyrion's connection of dreaming dragons of their own.  But of course if we pay attention in AGOT, we had more than a hint.

 

“What are you reading about?” he asked.

“Dragons,” Tyrion told him.

“What good is that? There are no more dragons,” the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

“So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”

“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

“No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t …”

...

Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

 

I feel like this is what Anne Groel was talking about with regarding how Martin lays clues in 3 steps revelation strategy regarding the connection of Jon and Tyrion's connection of dreaming dragons.

 

1. In AGOT (as quoted above) Tyrion states he dreamed of dragon of his own to Jon, makes the (what we think) assumptions that when he was at Jon's age, he also dreams of dragon of his own.  We don't know if Jon dreams of dragons at this early stage of the series yet.  The part where Jon sharply deny he dreamed of dragons, Martin placed ellipses just for us to not be certain, that there is something that he will reveal later on that will make us question and lead us to a different conclusion. (1st step: Tyrion alleged that Jon also dreamed of dragons, very subtle--Tyrion is of full Lannister blood, he's just talking nonsense, kids dream of dragons all the time)

 

2. Later in ASOS, we learned that Jon just off handedly reveal that he also dreamed of dragons to Ygritte.  The part that says... “I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—” should point you to Tyrion.  So the confirmation/revelation by Martin at this point of the story is, Jon also dreamed of dragons. (2nd step: Jon revealed to Ygritte that Tyrion also dreamed of dragons--signaling that by saying "I had another friend", is subtly and openly admitting that he also dreamed of dragons, thus marking him as someone with Targaryen blood.  To which we learn of the hints that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna through out the books)

 

3. I believe in R+L=J and it's revelation is all but written for me.  I feel that once Jon's true parentage is revealed, there will be some kind of revelation for Tyrion that Martin will do as well. (3rd step: open revelation, clear as day for readers to know that Jon is of Targaryen blood through Rhaegar--thus Jon dreams of dragons because he is of Targaryen blood.  This connects to Tyrion and maybe only to be revealed through him riding a dragon)

 

 

Very good. + The bolded part is also telling.

[Chinoiserie]

I'm still not 100% (about 80%) sure about Tyrion being Aerys', but Martin did lay clues for us, especially after the World book, so the possibility is there.
 
I like this unique connection.
 
Jon With Ygritte
 

I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me

JON SNOW! One of the Thenns loomed above them, frowning. Magnar wants.

 
Then Martin cuts it off without revealing too much about Jon and Tyrion's connection of dreaming dragons of their own.  But of course if we pay attention in AGOT, we had more than a hint.
 

What are you reading about? he asked.

Dragons, Tyrion told him.

What good is that? There are no more dragons, the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

So they say, Tyrion replied. Sad, isnt it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.

You did? the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when hes seated on a dragons back. Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes Id imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister. Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. Dont look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. Youve dreamt the same kind of dreams.

No, Jon Snow said, horrified. I wouldnt 

...

Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

 
I feel like this is what Anne Groel was talking about with regarding how Martin lays clues in 3 steps revelation strategy regarding the connection of Jon and Tyrion's connection of dreaming dragons.
 
1. In AGOT (as quoted above) Tyrion states he dreamed of dragon of his own to Jon, makes the (what we think) assumptions that when he was at Jon's age, he also dreams of dragon of his own.  We don't know if Jon dreams of dragons at this early stage of the series yet.  The part where Jon sharply deny he dreamed of dragons, Martin placed ellipses just for us to not be certain, that there is something that he will reveal later on that will make us question and lead us to a different conclusion. (1st step: Tyrion alleged that Jon also dreamed of dragons, very subtle--Tyrion is of full Lannister blood, he's just talking nonsense, kids dream of dragons all the time)
 
2. Later in ASOS, we learned that Jon just off handedly reveal that he also dreamed of dragons to Ygritte.  The part that says... I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me should point you to Tyrion.  So the confirmation/revelation by Martin at this point of the story is, Jon also dreamed of dragons. (2nd step: Jon revealed to Ygritte that Tyrion also dreamed of dragons--signaling that by saying "I had another friend", is subtly and openly admitting that he also dreamed of dragons, thus marking him as someone with Targaryen blood.  To which we learn of the hints that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna through out the books)

 

3. I believe in R+L=J and it's revelation is all but written for me.  I feel that once Jon's true parentage is revealed, there will be some kind of revelation for Tyrion that Martin will do as well. (3rd step: open revelation, clear as day for readers to know that Jon is of Targaryen blood through Rhaegar--thus Jon dreams of dragons because he is of Targaryen blood.  This connects to Tyrion and maybe only to be revealed through him riding a dragon)
 

Great find, usually people say that Jon has never had dragon dreams, I forgot this one. I wonder if GRRM had planned on stating clearly that Jon has had dragon dreams in Dance but heard that most people have figured R+L=J so left it out. And Tyrion/Jon connection is well done.

[IceFire125]

Very good. + The bolded part is also telling.

 

That quick set of back and forth between Jon and Tyrion was quite telling, that Tryion caught him off-guard, like he knew that Jon had dreams of having his own dragons as well.  But of course, Tyrion was being a generalist, kids and wishful thinkers dream of having their own dragons too.  So it's easy to shove it aside and that's purposely designed by Martin, but of course, as we learn later on with Jon's strong possibility of having Targaryen blood--that having dreams of dragons are part of being having Targaryen blood.

 

Great find, usually people say that Jon has never had dragon dreams, I forgot this one. I wonder if GRRM had planned on stating clearly that Jon has had dragon dreams in Dance but heard that most people have figured R+L=J so left it out. And Tyrion/Jon connection is well done.

 

A big hint in Dance is when Jon accompanied Val before he lets her go up North to find Tormund.  

 

“His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”

Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

 

The is important because, Jon was having a specific glimpse of dragons while he is wide awake as Val stood beside him, that he was not dreaming.  And most importantly, the key word here is, "Dragons again," meaning that Jon had these glimpses (momentary sights) of dragons before, if not multiple times (for who knows how long since his birth and able to understand).  This was a big clue by Martin, I think if he had wrote one more clue like this before Dance in addition to this, it would be a big big give-away and  would highlight of Jon's Targaryen blood, thus R+L=J confirmed before a big revelation later in the series.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

aGoT - Tyrion III
 
aGoT - Tyrion VI
 
aSoS - Tyrion VI
 
aSoS - Tyrion VIII
 
aSoS - Tyrion IX
 
The Hedge Knight
 
The Sworn Sword
 
The Mystery Knight
 
Just dropping these quotes to highlight how Tyrion shares a trait with a Targaryen (his grandfather?)... The couple of Dunk & Egg often evokes Jorah & Tyrion to me.

And how do you separate these from all the other tongue-cutting threats that are made in the series?

[Jô Maltese]

^^ A tongue-cutting threat is neither a general trait nor a reaction to a general trait, it's a reaction to a particular talk (Silver Tongue, Payne etc).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

^^ A tongue-cutting threat is neither a general trait nor a reaction to a general trait, it's a reaction to a particular talk (Silver Tongue, Payne etc).

I wasn't thinking along the lines of Symon or Ilyn, though..

 

“Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel. I preferred to amuse myself by mocking my sister’s suitors. There was Little Lord Lazyeye, Squire Squishlips, one I named the Whale That Walks, that sort of thing. The only one who was even halfway presentable was young Baelor Hightower. A pretty lad, and my sister was

half in love with him until he had the misfortune to fart once in our presence. I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldn’t look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue.”

[Jô Maltese]

 

I wasn't thinking along the lines of Symon or Ilyn, though..

 

“Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel. I preferred to amuse myself by mocking my sister’s suitors. There was Little Lord Lazyeye, Squire Squishlips, one I named the Whale That Walks, that sort of thing. The only one who was even halfway presentable was young Baelor Hightower. A pretty lad, and my sister was

half in love with him until he had the misfortune to fart once in our presence. I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldn’t look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue.”

 

 

Then my answer is : The tongues of Egg and Tyrion endanger them because they usually speak the truth plainly, not because they want to hurt people - actually honesty as opposed to unfairness (Oberyn...). Also, Tyrion and Egg are described (IMHO) as having remarkable inner strength and high levels of personal ressources, but their swift tongue which is their main weakness.

[Mithras]

Then Pyp should be a dragonseed too.

 

The younger men were gathered at another table, where Pyp had stabbed a turnip with his knife. “The night is dark and full of turnips,” he announced in a solemn voice. “Let us all pray for venison, my children, with some onions and a bit of tasty gravy.” His friends laughed—Grenn, Toad, Satin, the whole lot of them.

Jon Snow did not join the laughter. “Making mock of another man’s prayer is fool’s work, Pyp. And dangerous.”

“If the red god’s offended, let him strike me down.”

All the smiles had died. “It was the priestess we were laughing at,” said Satin, a lithe and pretty youth who had once been a whore in Oldtown. “We were only having a jape, my lord.”

“You have your gods and she has hers. Leave her be.”

“She won’t let our gods be,” argued Toad. “She calls the Seven false gods, m’lord. The old gods too. She made the wildlings burn weirwood branches. You saw.”

“Lady Melisandre is not part of my command. You are. I won’t have bad blood between the king’s men and my own.”

Pyp laid a hand on Toad’s arm. “Croak no more, brave Toad, for our Great Lord Snow has spoken.” Pyp hopped to his feet and gave Jon a mocking bow. “I beg pardon. Henceforth, I shall not even waggle my ears save by your lordship’s lordly leave.”

He thinks this is all some game. Jon wanted to shake some sense into him. “Waggle your ears all you like. It’s your tongue waggling that makes the trouble.”

“I’ll see that he’s more careful,” Grenn promised, “and I’ll clout him if he’s not.” 

 

Hell, we even have the clouting!

[Drogonthedread]

No offence but i think people mainly believe in theory because of wanting tyrion to be a dragon rider and a drgon head

even i too thought at first he will ride viserion and has connection with dany and jon in having similar birth

but i am certain aftegq rereads there wont be any dragon riders other than dany and this theory will never be resolved even when the series finishes

[Jô Maltese]

^^  :rolleyes:

 

EDIT: this was for Mithras

[Jô Maltese]

No offence but i think people mainly believe in theory because of wanting tyrion to be a dragon rider and a drgon head

even i too thought at first he will ride viserion and has connection with dany and jon in having similar birth

but i am certain aftegq rereads there wont be any dragon riders other than dany and this theory will never be resolved even when the series finishes

 

I actually mostly agree with you (in particular the bolded part), except that I do not want anything but just draw my own conclusions (right or wrong) when reading, and Tyrion a future dragon rider / a head of the dragon is certainly one of them:

 

 

The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not." 

 

***

 

Your Grace," he conceded, "the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust. Well, here's your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen—three dragons, and three riders."

"Yes," said Dany, "but my brothers are dead."

 

***

 

The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.

 

Tyrion as Danny's brother and trusted adviser, mounted on a dragon, fits the above picture IMHO.

[Drogonthedread]

 
I actually mostly agree with you (in particular the bolded part), except that I do not want anything but just draw my own conclusions (right or wrong) when reading, and Tyrion a future dragon rider / a head of the dragon is certainly one of them:
 
 
Tyrion as Danny's brother and trusted adviser, mounted on a dragon, fits the above picture IMHO.

I can see the points in support of this theory and a year ago we would be in same team
but now am totally convinced that dany is the three headed dragon and there wont be any other dragon riders in the story

however if there is other riders than i will go with tyrion and jon for sure because thats what i thought too after reading for first time

[Jô Maltese]

I can see the points in support of this theory and a year ago we would be in same team
but now am totally convinced that dany is the three headed dragon and there wont be any other dragon riders in the story

however if there is other riders than i will go with tyrion and jon for sure because thats what i thought too after reading for first time

Why don't you develop why you believe the bolded? That's the idea of this forum and I am interested.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not." 
 
***
 
Your Grace," he conceded, "the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust. Well, here's your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen—three dragons, and three riders."
"Yes," said Dany, "but my brothers are dead."
 
***
 
The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.

 
 
 
Tyrion as Danny's brother and trusted adviser, mounted on a dragon, fits the above picture IMHO.

Can you elaborate perhaps as to why you feel this points to Tyrion being a dragonrider?

[Jô Maltese]

Can you elaborate perhaps as to why you feel this points to Tyrion being a dragonrider?

Here (in my signature block): Just get on with it: Tyrion WILL ride Viserion

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Here (in my signature block): Just get on with it: Tyrion WILL ride Viserion

Thank you.