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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.6

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I'm still not 100% (about 80%) sure about Tyrion being Aerys', but Martin did lay clues for us, especially after the World book, so the possibility is there.
 
I like this unique connection.
 
Jon With Ygritte
 
I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”
“JON SNOW!” One of the Thenns loomed above them, frowning. “Magnar wants.”
 
Then Martin cuts it off without revealing too much about Jon and Tyrion's connection of dreaming dragons of their own.  But of course if we pay attention in AGOT, we had more than a hint.
 
“What are you reading about?” he asked.
“Dragons,” Tyrion told him.
“What good is that? There are no more dragons,” the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.
“So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”
You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.
“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”
No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t 
...
Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.
 
I feel like this is what Anne Groel was talking about with regarding how Martin lays clues in 3 steps revelation strategy regarding the connection of Jon and Tyrion's connection of dreaming dragons.
 
1. In AGOT (as quoted above) Tyrion states he dreamed of dragon of his own to Jon, makes the (what we think) assumptions that when he was at Jon's age, he also dreams of dragon of his own.  We don't know if Jon dreams of dragons at this early stage of the series yet.  The part where Jon sharply deny he dreamed of dragons, Martin placed ellipses just for us to not be certain, that there is something that he will reveal later on that will make us question and lead us to a different conclusion. (1st step: Tyrion alleged that Jon also dreamed of dragons, very subtle--Tyrion is of full Lannister blood, he's just talking nonsense, kids dream of dragons all the time)
 
2. Later in ASOS, we learned that Jon just off handedly reveal that he also dreamed of dragons to Ygritte.  The part that says... “I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—” should point you to Tyrion.  So the confirmation/revelation by Martin at this point of the story is, Jon also dreamed of dragons. (2nd step: Jon revealed to Ygritte that Tyrion also dreamed of dragons--signaling that by saying "I had another friend", is subtly and openly admitting that he also dreamed of dragons, thus marking him as someone with Targaryen blood.  To which we learn of the hints that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna through out the books)
 
3. I believe in R+L=J and it's revelation is all but written for me.  I feel that once Jon's true parentage is revealed, there will be some kind of revelation for Tyrion that Martin will do as well. (3rd step: open revelation, clear as day for readers to know that Jon is of Targaryen blood through Rhaegar--thus Jon dreams of dragons because he is of Targaryen blood.  This connects to Tyrion and maybe only to be revealed through him riding a dragon)
 

 

Excellent post!!

 

You know I have never noticed that Jon said that before.  I am re-reading right now, cant wait to get to it :)

 

 

So let me ask this, Rhaenys, what do you think? (I know we disagree about this theory, but I seriously respect everything you say, and I guess I feel that if we can convince you then we can retire  :cool4: )

 

So Jon is admitting (for the first time) that he has dreams of dragons, something we know is a trait held by the Targaryen family alone.  And while he is admitting it he brings up the fact that Tyrion is the only other person he knows whom this has also happened to.  Making the conversation about 'I know you dream the same dreams' that Tyrion and Jon had very meaningful and significant.  Clearly not just a throw away conversation.  This is Jon's first step into his life as Rhaegar's son and the Targ heir to the IT, he is dreaming of dragons.  He is 1/2 ice and 1/2 fire, and we know that now from his very short cut-off sentence to Ygritte.

 

If Jon's dreams of dragons confirm that he is a Targaryen, it must be the same for Tyrion correct?  Otherwise Neither of them is.  This is the only way to look at it without letting personal preference guide you.

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It is an authorial failure. Because it means "I can make whoever I want a dragonrider without being restricted by logic".

 

George may very well go with that but I would call it bad writing and admitting defeat.

But the series has already confirmed this type of "bad writing" regarding warging. We know that some people with First Man blood can warg and some cannot. We don't know why some can and some cannot. GRRM confirmed that all of the Stark children are wargs. But we also have a pretty good idea that in other cases, some siblings are wargs and others are not. We don't know why.

 

Dragonbonding appears to work the same way. Strong Targ blood seems essential -- but not sufficient. What makes the difference? Unclear. Perhaps GRRM will explain later so that it is not just "bad writing" as you define it -- or maybe you will have to live with GRRM not being the "perfect" writer for your tastes and have him engage in elements of "bad writing" from your point of view. Personally, I don't find it bad writing. I find it an intriguing element of the plot that certainly is prone to manipulation by the author -- but so what -- all I want is a good story, not a story that needs to have no elements of author manipulation.

 

But the main point is the the notion of the "right drop" of Targ blood is not something invested by people on this thread or this board. It is basically explicitly stated in the text of the series. You just choose to discount these statements as mistaken because you don't like the story to be written that way. I don't try to figure these issues out based on how I would prefer the story to go -- I try to figure out where I think GRRM is taking the story based on what he has written and said. If he is going in a direction I don't like -- too bad for me but I try not to let it interfere with my analysis.

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Aerys first insults her in front of everyone (asking if her breasts had sagged after breastfeeding the twins), and THEN fathers her child? This makes me think this is either not true, or he had to rape her.

On the other hand, when the twins are born he offers them their weight in gold, and orders Tywin to bring them to Kings Landing as soon as they are old enough to travel.

Just because it is not stated that Aerys did not visit Joanna in time to father Cersei and Jaime, doesn't mean he didn't.

Everytime a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin, and Cersei and Jaime fit that saying pretty well.

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^^^ I seriously doubt we can take that story verbatim, its all hearsay.  Some kind of sexual comment was made, and a sex act probably happened later that night, which would cause Tywin to try and resign.  then in the next year little Tyrion was born.

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Aerys first insults her in front of everyone (asking if her breasts had sagged after breastfeeding the twins), and THEN fathers her child? This makes me think this is either not true, or he had to rape her.

On the other hand, when the twins are born he offers them their weight in gold, and orders Tywin to bring them to Kings Landing as soon as they are old enough to travel.

Just because it is not stated that Aerys did not visit Joanna in time to father Cersei and Jaime, doesn't mean he didn't.

Everytime a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin, and Cersei and Jaime fit that saying pretty well.

There is no real hint that Aerys and Joanna were ever together at the necessary time to father the twins -- but I agree that they were not "nailed down" at the time, so while apparently unlikely it is not impossible. But even if the twins are Targs (which I doubt but could be true), Tyrion still could be a Targ.

 

The circumstances under which Joann and Aerys had sex during the anniversary tourney seem to consist of multiple possibilities. One is outright violent rape. A slight variation is that Joanna was brought to Aerys and understood what was expected of her and she did not resist but was not a willing partner -- this variation would qualify as rape under modern standards but unclear under the standards of Westeros. Another theory, however, has Joanna going to Aerys and having sex with Aerys to convince Aerys to reject the resignation of Tywin that she knows is coming because she wants to continue to be the wife of the Hand and having sex with Aerys is the only way she can think to get Aerys to reject the resignation and thereby keep Tywin as Hand. Any of these alternatives is possible -- or perhaps other possibilities not considered. The point is that it is not impossible to come up with a scenario in which they have sex after the insult -- so the insult is not really an argument against them having sex.

 

What is sometimes argued is that Joanna would have taken moon tea to abort Tyrion under any of these circumstances, but we don't know enough about Joanna to know whether she would take moon tea and we don't know that it is effective 100% -- maybe she took moon tea and it led to deformities rather than an abortion. We just don't have enough information and cannot use such speculation to preclude Aerys as the father of Tyrion.

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^^^ I seriously doubt we can take that story verbatim, its all hearsay. Some kind of sexual comment was made, and a sex act probably happened later that night, which would cause Tywin to try and resign. then in the next year little Tyrion was born.


I don't know why you would so readily dismiss this as hearsay.

The story about Joanna being involve with Aerys even before his coronation and even being his paramour for a short time was also dismissed by Grand Maester Pycelle because " he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting on a another man's leavings". We now know for a fact that Tywin is not entirely against this notion, we have Shae to prove it.

The story about Aerys taking liberties with Joanna during her wedding night also seem to be true, even Ser Barristan mentioned it happening, and Ser Barristan is probably the most reliable guy we know in the books.

The story about him mocking her breasts was done in public, and thus had witnesses. Why would this particular story have to be hearsay?

Aery's involvement with Joanna started way before the tourney, it seems, so why exclude the possibility of A+J= C+J (other than nobody wrote anywhere that they met at the right time for that to be possible)?

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UnmaskedLurker, I agree. I am not saying Tyrion cannot be the son of Aerys, but I am saying, as you put, that Joanna was a victim of rape.

Aerys could have simply told her " do it or I'll kill your babies" and I presume she would have done it. She's still be unwilling and a victim.

Poor Joanna :(

I do say also, however, that there is no concise evidence against it being the twins, and that even though they don't have dragon dreams, mismatched eyes etc, they can still be Targaryen bastards.

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UnmaskedLurker, I agree. I am not saying Tyrion cannot be the son of Aerys, but I am saying, as you put, that Joanna was a victim of rape.

Aerys could have simply told her " do it or I'll kill your babies" and I presume she would have done it. She's still be unwilling and a victim.

Poor Joanna :(

I do say also, however, that there is no concise evidence against it being the twins, and that even though they don't have dragon dreams, mismatched eyes etc, they can still be Targaryen bastards.

While I cannot 100% eliminate the twins from being Targs, it seems unlikely. Certainly Ran, in getting all the notes from GRRM for WOIAF, stated that the A+J=C+J theory was "casually smashed" by WOIAF, while GRRM added fuel to the fire of A+J=T. When pressed that GRRM stated that Joanna "occasionally" visited KL during that period -- rather than "never" visited KL -- Ran conceded that a small window was left open for AJCJ, but the thrust of the relevant chapter was to avoid giving any clues in favor of AJCJ and make it much less likely, while expressly providing opportunity regarding AJT.

 

One theory is that Tywin was sterile and could not have natural born children. Personally, I think C&J are Tywin's, but I admit that we cannot know for sure. While I see the point about Cersei being sort of like Aerys, her "madness" seems of a quite different nature. She is more desperate and angry -- rather than lack of a grip on reality as Aerys seemed to develop -- with intense paranoia. And the ironies regarding Jaime and Tyrion killing each other's fathers -- and the way that Tywin wanted Jaime to inherit CR but was determined to prevent Tyrion -- support that Jaime is Tywin's and Tyrion is not.

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Nicely put, and I hadn't realised the whole 'killing each other's fathers'!

I was also thinking about fertility issues. Joanna took a rather long time to get pregnant the first AND the second time. Someone wasn't very fertile. Either Tywin was sterile (which means 3 Targs), or his seed was slow, or she had a rather irregular ovulation rhythm.

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They also were separated during much of the time and thus could not "try" as often as many couples. Or GRRM does what is needed for the story sometimes without coming up with any explicit explanation.

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The story about Joanna being involve with Aerys even before his coronation and even being his paramour for a short time was also dismissed by Grand Maester Pycelle because " he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting on a another man's leavings". We now know for a fact that Tywin is not entirely against this notion, we have Shae to prove it.

 

Two different Tywins seperated by what, some forty years and everything that took place in between.

 

People change.

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Nicely put, and I hadn't realised the whole 'killing each other's fathers'!

I was also thinking about fertility issues. Joanna took a rather long time to get pregnant the first AND the second time. Someone wasn't very fertile. Either Tywin was sterile (which means 3 Targs), or his seed was slow, or she had a rather irregular ovulation rhythm.

 

Lannisters are extremely fertile at the borderline of magic. They produce twins at every generation or two.

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The main problem I have with Jame and Cersei being Targaryen bastards is because they have (had) 3 children, that would mean an increase in the number of or people with Targaryen blood greatly.

And if true, because Cersei and Jaime are both Targaryen bastards their kids would have the same amount of dragon blood as Jon, meaning that Tommen, Myrcella (and poor dead Joff) could be dragon riders as well.

 

So instead of just Daenerys, fAegon, Jon and Tyrion, you could be looking at list of Daenerys, fAegon, Jon, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Tommen and Myrcella as possible dragon riders.

That effectively doubles the candidates.

 

And people complain about Jon and Tyrion being "too many secret Targaryens"

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Lannisters are extremely fertile at the borderline of magic. They produce twins at every generation or two.

being extremely fertile and producing Twins are not the same thing.

 

Having lots of children would be an example of extremely fertile.

Twins would just mean that the mother either just released two eggs or the egg split after being fertilized.

 

They could be either/or. They are not related.

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being extremely fertile and producing Twins are not the same thing.

 

Having lots of children would be an example of extremely fertile.

Twins would just mean that the mother either just released two eggs or the egg split after being fertilized.

 

They could be either/or. They are not related.

 

Garth Greenhand brought the gift of fertility with him. Nor was it only the earth that he made fecund, for the legends tell us that he could make barren women fruitful with a touch—even crones whose moon blood no longer flowed. Maidens ripened in his presence, mothers brought forth twins or even triplets when he blessed them, young girls flowered at his smile. Lords and common men alike offered up their virgin daughters to him wherever he went, that their crops might ripen and their trees grow heavy with fruit. There was never a maid that he deflowered who did not deliver a strong son or fair daughter nine moons later, or so the stories say.

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I don't know why you would so readily dismiss this as hearsay.

The story about Joanna being involve with Aerys even before his coronation and even being his paramour for a short time was also dismissed by Grand Maester Pycelle because " he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting on a another man's leavings". We now know for a fact that Tywin is not entirely against this notion, we have Shae to prove it.

The story about Aerys taking liberties with Joanna during her wedding night also seem to be true, even Ser Barristan mentioned it happening, and Ser Barristan is probably the most reliable guy we know in the books.

The story about him mocking her breasts was done in public, and thus had witnesses. Why would this particular story have to be hearsay?

Aery's involvement with Joanna started way before the tourney, it seems, so why exclude the possibility of A+J= C+J (other than nobody wrote anywhere that they met at the right time for that to be possible)?

i just mean that what I think is important to take away from the 'breasts' comment is that Aerys is saying sexual things to Joanna in public.  So much so that it was recorded, so how much stuff happened that night that didnt make the history book?

 

We have proven over and over that Tywin was staunch, especially when it involved taking shit from Aerys.  He shows over and over and over through a 2 decade period that he loves to take shit from Aerys and never speak up , speak out, defend himself, etc.  Aerys is the king and Tywin bows his head to the guy.  So one inane comment is proven to not be enough to mess with Tywin's head and make him flat out try to resign.  Something else happened that night. (sex with Joanna is what happened lol)

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Aerys first insults her in front of everyone (asking if her breasts had sagged after breastfeeding the twins), and THEN fathers her child? This makes me think this is either not true, or he had to rape her.

On the other hand, when the twins are born he offers them their weight in gold, and orders Tywin to bring them to Kings Landing as soon as they are old enough to travel.

Just because it is not stated that Aerys did not visit Joanna in time to father Cersei and Jaime, doesn't mean he didn't.

Everytime a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin, and Cersei and Jaime fit that saying pretty well.

 

Targaryen madness again? With all of seven people being mad in their family history and only Maegor and Aerys being irredeemable psychopaths, Aerion and Aemond being spectacular assholes with messiah complexes, Baelor being a religious zealot, Viserys being turned mad through circumstance, and Rhaegal being mentally handicapped?

Jaime and Cersei as they are points out the Targaryens are not nearly so exceptional in their split persona's as we've been lead to believe. Most of the great houses have some bloody figure in their history, Tyrion the Tormenter for the Lannisters, about 40% of the the rulers of the iron islands, as that's what they needed to stand out, etc. Yet no one declares there blood to be corrupt.

It's like one of those housewife tales of "Getting to close to a screen ruins your eyes" or "Cracking your knuckles gives you arthritis", it's passed around a lot and accepted as fact, but upon further investigation it seems Targaryen incest results in low fertility rates and not much else. (Which is fairly realistic for GRRMnetics.

Oh, lordy, this is sounds rather angry, does it not?

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So let me ask this, Rhaenys, what do you think? (I know we disagree about this theory, but I seriously respect everything you say, and I guess I feel that if we can convince you then we can retire  :cool4: )

 

The fact that we can keep discussing this stuff despite the fact that we don't agree on this topic, most of the time, is the reason I keep hanging around here :)

 

:cheers:

 

 

So Jon is admitting (for the first time) that he has dreams of dragons, something we know is a trait held by the Targaryen family alone.  And while he is admitting it he brings up the fact that Tyrion is the only other person he knows whom this has also happened to.  Making the conversation about 'I know you dream the same dreams' that Tyrion and Jon had very meaningful and significant.  Clearly not just a throw away conversation.  This is Jon's first step into his life as Rhaegar's son and the Targ heir to the IT, he is dreaming of dragons.  He is 1/2 ice and 1/2 fire, and we know that now from his very short cut-off sentence to Ygritte.

 

If Jon's dreams of dragons confirm that he is a Targaryen, it must be the same for Tyrion correct?  Otherwise Neither of them is.  This is the only way to look at it without letting personal preference guide you.

 

Honestly, I never read it that way. And I still doubt whether Jon is admitting here that he had dreamt of dragons himself.

 

“What are you reading about?” he asked.
“Dragons,” Tyrion told him.
“What good is that? There are no more dragons,” the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.
“So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”
“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.
“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.
“No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t …”
 
I read this passage as Jon being horrified at the thought of dreaming about causing the deaths of your own relatives - father, sister.. Why would Jon be horrified about having dreamt about a dragon once?
 
“I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”
 
I don't think this necessarily says that Jon dreams of dragons. I read this as that it was the friend (Tyrion) who had dreamed of dragons, not both Jon and Tyrion.
Though I admit that it can be that I read it this way because English is not my native tongue.. 
 
People can dream about dragons without being Targaryens, but there's dreaming of dragons and dreaming of dragons, if you get what I mean. There's dreaming of the animals themselves like one might dream about a friend, or another animal, and then there's dreaming the way Daeron the Drunken did. Even amongst the Targaryens.. Bloodraven speaks of "from time to time" when discussing that gift amongst the Blackfyre's, and it should logically be the same amongst the Targaryens.
 
So the point is, in what sense does Tyrion dream about dragons? Is it in a prophetic sense? Or isn't it? As far as I can currently recall, Tyrion hasn't dreamt anything prophetic so far.
 
Even when there's a prophetic dream featuring a dragon (see the Winds of Winter Arianne sample chapter), it might not be because of Targaryen blood. (two spoiler tags, because the one spoiler tag hid only 1/4 of the spoiler for some strange reason..)
[spoiler]Though in this case, Teora might actually see what is going to happen, actual dragons fighting, leading to her seeing the future, as Mother Mole apparently is capable of doing Beyond the Wall. In that case, though, Teora wouldn't be dreaming the kind of dreams Daeron dreamt, where the dragons at times were not actual dragons, but Targaryens, seen in the dream as dragons.
[/spoiler]
I should add, though, that it seems to me to be the case that Targaryens are also capable of dreaming of dragons, with these dreams depicting actual dragons (and not Targaryens as dragons). I personally suspect that Aerion dreamt such a dream, about the return of the dragons, causing him, whilst drunk, to drink the cup of wildfire, expecting himself to turn into a dragon, whereas the reality, in that case, was that his dream had shown Daenerys 70 years later walking into a funeral pyre and three dragons coming forth.
 
[spoiler]
I also admit that it is possible that Teora dreams are prophetically depicting Aegon and Daenerys fighting. And it might even be the case that she has some drop of Targaryenblood, through a marriage between House Tolland and House Martell.
[/spoiler]
In short, trying to track where prophetic powers come from, is quite difficult :)
 
I fully admit that it is possible that it is caused due to Targaryen blood, as explained above.
 
So to the question

If Jon's dreams of dragons confirm that he is a Targaryen, it must be the same for Tyrion correct?  Otherwise Neither of them is.  This is the only way to look at it without letting personal preference guide you.

I'd say.. In what sense do they dream of dragons? When does Jon dream of dragons?

 

If Jon dreams a prophetic dream containing dragons who depict Targaryens or those with Targaryen blood, it would be a sign of his ancestry. If Tyrion does the same.. It would definitly point towards it,  yes.

 

If Jon simply dreams about seeing a dragon fly by, though.. That might be prophetic, but not necessarily caused by Targaryen blood. For Tyrion, a prophetic dream containing an actual dragon (and not a dragon where a Targaryen is meant), could similarly have other causes. 

 

 

 

On topic of Tyrion's dreams, though, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that Tyrion has stated

 

"[...] I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

 

If Tyrion had dragon dreams, why does he not dream about them anymore? The argument "“Wine helps me sleep,” Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said." has been given before, but to that, I ask, if he drinks so much as to not dream about the type of dreams that plagued Daeron so much, why does he state the following?

 

If I drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.

 

Sounds to me, that here, Tyrion says he wants to drink a lot in the hopes of dreaming of dragons.. :dunno:

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Nicely put, and I hadn't realised the whole 'killing each other's fathers'!

I was also thinking about fertility issues. Joanna took a rather long time to get pregnant the first AND the second time. Someone wasn't very fertile. Either Tywin was sterile (which means 3 Targs), or his seed was slow, or she had a rather irregular ovulation rhythm.

Or, you know, Tywin spent most of his time in King's Landing, where he worked, whilst Joanna spent that time at Casterly Rock, because the Queen had sent her away from court, and her visits to court would be described as 'seldom' (with only one actually known to us). If Tywin and Joanna spent only little time together, they will have fewer chances of conceiving, and thus it might take longer for a first pregnancy to occur (or a second).

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i just mean that what I think is important to take away from the 'breasts' comment is that Aerys is saying sexual things to Joanna in public.  So much so that it was recorded, so how much stuff happened that night that didnt make the history book?

 

We have proven over and over that Tywin was staunch, especially when it involved taking shit from Aerys.  He shows over and over and over through a 2 decade period that he loves to take shit from Aerys and never speak up , speak out, defend himself, etc.  Aerys is the king and Tywin bows his head to the guy.  So one inane comment is proven to not be enough to mess with Tywin's head and make him flat out try to resign.  Something else happened that night. (sex with Joanna is what happened lol)

I wouldn't say that he loved to take shit from Aerys. You can take a lot of crap from someone without actually liking it. Tywin was ambitious, and the only position higher than Hand of the King, would be being the actual King (and even that might not always be the case).

 

The distinction I find telling here, is that Tywin was willing to endure all of the public taunts and insults directed towards himself, but the second someone dared to do so towards his beloved wife, he responsed by trying to quit. Aerys crossed a line there, but in the end, not far enough for Tywin to go against Aerys' refusal of his resignment. And that might be where Joanna comes into play again. She 'ruled' Tywin, so it is possible that she convinced him not to push the issue..

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