A+J=T v.6

[Suzanna Stormborn]

This is what I don't get. Out of nowhere, Tywin, on his own, compares Joffrey to Aerys, and I'm told it means nothing. Yet, when he does the same with Tyrion, it has to mean something..? Why?

 

As to the purpose of having dreams about dragons.. Like I said, Targaryens don't simply dream about dragons. They dream of "things to come", to quote Bloodraven. That's a difference.

the only thing it 'means' is that Joffrey sucks just like Aerys did, they are comparable, but not related (except through Tyrion of course). So it has a direct meaning of course.  What I meant is that comparing Joffrey to Aerys does not suggest they are related.  Because we all know that Cersei never slept with Aerys.  but when you compare a person (Tyrion) to another person (aerys) and you are their would-be father (Tywin) who suspects Aerys might be Tyrion's father, then it has a deeper meaning dont you agree? Since we know for sure that Aerys and Joanna had an affair and that Tywin doubts Tyrions paternity.

 

That's what i mean about Joffrey, if someone had compared him to Aerys, it means nothing cause we know for sure they are not related, but when compared to Jaime it does have meaning, since he is the father. you get what i'm saying here?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Dude!!!
Check out this little tidbit I just stumbled across while reading on my phone instead of working :)
 
Tyrion CoK
Tyrion and Varys
(well first TYrion says this, just another link to dragons)
"I believe in steel swords, gold coins, and men's wits," said Tyrion.  "And I believe there once were dragons.  I've seen their skulls after all."
"Let us hope that is the worst thing you ever see, my lord."
"On that we agree."  Tyrion smiled.  "And for Ser Courtnay's death, well, we know Stannis hired sellsails from the Free Cities.  Perhaps he bought himslef a skilled assassin as well."
"A very skilled assassin."
"There are such.  I used to dream that one day I'd be rich enough to send a Faceless Man after my sweet sister."
 
 
 
^^^ LOLLLLzzzzz, Oh Tyrion, could you stop having prophetic dreams please?  Could you stop making my job so easy on this thread.
Never noticed it before, but IIRC Arya is becoming a Faceless Man and has sworn to kill Cersei every night for what 2.5 straight years now? cracks me up :)

What do you suppose the Faceless Men would require in return?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

 

As to the purpose of having dreams about dragons.. Like I said, Targaryens don't simply dream about dragons. They dream of "things to come", to quote Bloodraven. That's a difference.

Sure they dont, but no one else in the novels dreams of dragons at all besides ppl with BOTD. No one else, so what is the purpose to give them to TYrion, even if they are not prophetic, even if they mean nothing, why continually link Tyrion to dragons and have his mother having an affair with Aerys?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

What do you suppose the Faceless Men would require in return?

Faceless Men in general require money right? Tyrion and LF both mention how much they charge to kill.

 

But Arya specifically would most likely do that shit for free.99 right?

[Lord Varys]

Teora Toland can easily have Targaryen blood - either through the Martells or the Velaryons. Teora's elder sister is named Valena, and that was originally the spelling of the name of the Conqueror's mother back when this chapter was written in the version we know. Could be a clue that her grandmother was a Velaryon.

 

And, honestly, I never thought Shireen had prophetic dreams and don't really push that angle. Dragonstone is a very dreadful place for a child, and Shireen is a very sad girl. If you look at those statues long enough they haunt you in your dreams. It could be that there is some meaning to this - but then, we know that George has not yet killed Shireen, and if Stannis burns her dragons (neither literally nor figuratively) will only be connected to that if he tries to hatch some dragons eggs.

 

Mithras,

 

your scenarios are really the most counterintuitive I've ever read - and it is quite obvious that you do that on purpose, since most of your 'theories' go pretty much against common sense. Victarion resents and mistrust intelligent and learned people. Tyrion is intelligent, learned, and a dwarf. He'll neither interact with him nor ever ask for his advice. Assuming that Vic survives the coming battle, which is not clear. The very idea that this guy with some ships and warriors is going to call the shots in a city which actually contains lots and lots of warriors of their own, in combination with Dany's other forces is just laughable, I'm sorry. There are the other sellswords, the Unsullied, the brazen beasts, and the Unsullied to consider. And as stupid as Vic is Hizdahr could outmaneuver him as far as I know...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^^I dont think Shireen has prophetic dreams either.  she only had that one dream, it was like "I had a dream a about a dragon and it ate me."  or something.

 

I think she has Targ blood so she is having a dream about a dragon, simple as that. Targ's have a connection to dragons.  this is what I keep saying to Rhaenys.  I just think that it's obvious GRRM gives people with Targ blood more of a connection to dragons than any other characters, even if it is simple meaningless dreams, she is still having them while other non-Targ characters never do.

[Jô Maltese]

Dude!!!

Check out this little tidbit I just stumbled across while reading on my phone instead of working :)

 

Tyrion CoK

Tyrion and Varys

(well first TYrion says this, just another link to dragons)

"I believe in steel swords, gold coins, and men's wits," said Tyrion.  "And I believe there once were dragons.  I've seen their skulls after all."

"Let us hope that is the worst thing you ever see, my lord."

"On that we agree."  Tyrion smiled.  "And for Ser Courtnay's death, well, we know Stannis hired sellsails from the Free Cities.  Perhaps he bought himslef a skilled assassin as well."

"A very skilled assassin."

"There are such.  I used to dream that one day I'd be rich enough to send a Faceless Man after my sweet sister."

 

 

 

^^^ LOLLLLzzzzz, Oh Tyrion, could you stop having prophetic dreams please?  Could you stop making my job so easy on this thread.

Never noticed it before, but IIRC Arya is becoming a Faceless Man and has sworn to kill Cersei every night for what 2.5 straight years now? cracks me up :)

Not sure about this, but you reminded another parallel with D&E novellas: the relationship between Egg and Aerion sounds very much like the relationship between Cersei and Tyrion when children... Fair enough this could point at Cersei being the Targ (  ;) to Mithras), but then, thinking again, Aemon did a "Jaimie" in a way, by refusing the throne because of his vows, and he was the trusted big brother...

[Maia]

This is what I don't get. Out of nowhere, Tywin, on his own, compares Joffrey to Aerys, and I'm told it means nothing. Yet, when he does the same with Tyrion, it has to mean something..? Why?

 

I don't actually recall any such incident - didn't Tywin compare Joff to Robert instead?, but for the sake of the argument - well, for one thing, it makes sense to compare a  king to one of his recent predecessors, no? I mean, they both have the same job, after all, and if there are some discussions about governance, etc. it is only logical. Comparing Tyrion to Aerys is rather random, though, given that their situations are nothing alike.

 

 

As to the purpose of having dreams about dragons.. Like I said, Targaryens don't simply dream about dragons. They dream of "things to come", to quote Bloodraven. That's a difference.

 

That was my whole point, though - being a seer isn't Targ-specific. Yes, seers do pop up among Targs occasionally, so it is one of their hereditary talents, and they confused things by calling their prophetic dreams "dragon dreams", but as I have pointed out in my previous post, there are seers from very varied backgrounds all over the world. Nor is seeing dragons (either real ones or Targs) when they are pertinent for the given prophetic glimpse of the future Targ-specific. Teora is no more BoTD than Moqorro, Melisandre, etc., just because she is foreseeing some future  calamity in which dragons and/or Targs will play a central role.

 

OTOH, Dany and Aemon are not seers. Yet they dreamed of dragons, unusually vivid dreams in which they were drawn to said dragons. And according to Aemon, his 2 brothers, who were _not_ seers also had such dreams. And judging from what he said, Tyrion had them also. So, what does it all mean?

 

Re: Shireen, yes, she is a Targ descendant, but the marked difference between her and the above is that _she_ was terrified  of the dragons in her dreams, not drawn to them like all these other people. So, it could be a prophetic dream or simple nightmare caused by Dragonstone statuary, but not a manifestation of BoTD per se. IMHO, YMMV.

[Jô Maltese]

 

Even if Tyrion rides a dragon and even if George proves conclusively that he has Targaryen blood (from Plumm, Aerys, or even Rhaegar) I will still not believe that Targaryen blood is needed to ride a dragon.

 

For that, I will require conclusive proofs, not circular logic.

I think I have read all your crazy theories (listed in your signature block), and I have enjoyed reading many of them, often thinking, "Yeah... This could work". But I cannot say I have ever seen any conclusive proof in them.

As for circular logic, I cannot deny there is not a certain amount of it in my reasoning. But where do you want to start with when dealing with literature (and not maths)? Facts are invented by the author and theorems do not exist. But we all draw our conclusions from circumstantial evidence intended or not by the author and go from there. As such, for me, tPatQ reduces significantly the probabilities of BOTD / Dragon Riding being circular logic. In a way, this is the old Egg and... the Dragon problem: which came first? Well, in Westeros, they both arrived at the same moment, with Aegon the Conqueror and Balerion and Co... The Targaryens are dragons and Dragons are Targaryens, just like the Starks are Wolves and Wolves are the Starks.

 

Tyrion is meant to bound with a dragon, Viserion, you, Mithras, are like me, convinced of this.

 

The conclusion is straightforward: Tyrion is a Dragon, he is a Targaryen. A+J or not. For all Westeros to see.

[Danelle]

 

I don't actually recall any such incident - didn't Tywin compare Joff to Robert instead?, but for the sake of the argument - well, for one thing, it makes sense to compare a  king to one of his recent predecessors, no? I mean, they both have the same job, after all, and if there are some discussions about governance, etc. it is only logical. Comparing Tyrion to Aerys is rather random, though, given that their situations are nothing alike.

 

 

What happened is that Tywin mentioned Aerys as an example that Joffrey should avoid

 

 

 “Aerys also felt the need to remind men that he was king. And he was passing fond of ripping tongues out as well. You could ask Ser Ilyn Payne about that, though you’ll get no reply.”

 Then Joffrey mocked Tywin accusing him of cowardice while Robert defeated the Targaryens. Then Tywin ordered Pycelle to take Joffrey back to his chambers. Cersei tried to apologize on her son's behalf but Tywin said

 

“And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father.”

 

And after Cersei is dismissed, Tyrion says

 

 

“Not Robert the Second,” Tyrion said. “Aerys the Third.”

 

Tywin never really compared Joffrey to Aerys, he merely suggested that he was a bad example. Instead he feared that Robert had a negative influence on his grandson.

[Maia]

Ok, thanks. I have forgotten that. However, that comparison by Tywin is hardly "out of nowhere", like Rhaenys_Targaryen suggested. It was actually very justified ;).

Not like "mummers and monkeys require applause, so for that matter did Aerys" in response to Tyrion wanting a little recognition for his hard work in ruling and protecting KL - that one was truly random, IMHO.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^ Yeah, it's not like Tywin brings up Aerys very much.  He definitely does not like the guy.  He also does not like Tyrion at all, as he tells him in that conversation, 'no you cannot inherit", "I cannot prove you are not mine",  "oh and BTW, you remind me of Aerys".

[Chinoiserie]

Faceless Men in general require money right? Tyrion and LF both mention how much they charge to kill.

 

But Arya specifically would most likely do that shit for free.99 right?

 

Faceless men probably would not let Arya to do something she wants like that but I suppose if someone else requested it... 

But still killing a Queen would probably be very expensive the was Littlefinger talked about killing Dany and maybe Faceless Men would want something else than gold. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Faceless Men in general require money right? Tyrion and LF both mention how much they charge to kill.
 
But Arya specifically would most likely do that shit for free.99 right?

Assuming Tyrion doesn't contract with a freelancing Arya, how Tyrion pay the Faceless Men? More promises of gold on speculation from Casterly Rock?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Not sure about this, but you reminded another parallel with D&E novellas: the relationship between Egg and Aerion sounds very much like the relationship between Cersei and Tyrion when children... Fair enough this could point at Cersei being the Targ (  ;) to Mithras), but then, thinking again, Aemon did a "Jaimie" in a way, by refusing the throne because of his vows, and he was the trusted big brother...

And Euron-Aeron...

[Mithras]

“Mummers and monkeys require applause. So did Aerys, for that matter.”

 

So this is considered as a clue for Tyrion requiring recognition like his “father” Aerys did.

 

“Aerys also felt the need to remind men that he was king. And he was passing fond of ripping tongues out as well. You could ask Ser Ilyn Payne about that, though you’ll get no reply.”

 

But this is not a clue for Joffrey often telling people that he was the king and ripping out tongues like his “grandsire” did.

 

That is what I call double standard.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ok, thanks. I have forgotten that. However, that comparison by Tywin is hardly "out of nowhere", like Rhaenys_Targaryen suggested. It was actually very justified ;).

Not like "mummers and monkeys require applause, so for that matter did Aerys" in response to Tyrion wanting a little recognition for his hard work in ruling and protecting KL - that one was truly random, IMHO.

I respectfully disagree. 

 

It did come out of nowhere. Aerys was not the topic of conversation, yet Tywin felt the need to point out a similarity between Joffrey's behavior and Aerys' behavior.

He later does the same thing with Tyrion, only by this point in the conversation, Aerys had been mentioned multiple times already, by Tywin, Joffrey, and Tyrion. Making the comparison between Joffrey and Aerys the one where Aerys was mentioned out of nowhere.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

I don't actually recall any such incident - didn't Tywin compare Joff to Robert instead?, but for the sake of the argument - well, for one thing, it makes sense to compare a  king to one of his recent predecessors, no? I mean, they both have the same job, after all, and if there are some discussions about governance, etc. it is only logical. Comparing Tyrion to Aerys is rather random, though, given that their situations are nothing alike.

 

But this isn't simply comparing predecessors. This is comparing a part of two people's behavior. This is not a discussion they have about governance. Tywin compares Joff's behavior to Aerys' behavior, as he compares Tyrion's behavior to Aerys' behavior, later on.

 

 

 

 

That was my whole point, though - being a seer isn't Targ-specific. Yes, seers do pop up among Targs occasionally, so it is one of their hereditary talents, and they confused things by calling their prophetic dreams "dragon dreams", but as I have pointed out in my previous post, there are seers from very varied backgrounds all over the world. Nor is seeing dragons (either real ones or Targs) when they are pertinent for the given prophetic glimpse of the future Targ-specific. Teora is no more BoTD than Moqorro, Melisandre, etc., just because she is foreseeing some future  calamity in which dragons and/or Targs will play a central role.

 

OTOH, Dany and Aemon are not seers. Yet they dreamed of dragons, unusually vivid dreams in which they were drawn to said dragons. And according to Aemon, his 2 brothers, who were _not_ seers also had such dreams. And judging from what he said, Tyrion had them also. So, what does it all mean?

 

Re: Shireen, yes, she is a Targ descendant, but the marked difference between her and the above is that _she_ was terrified  of the dragons in her dreams, not drawn to them like all these other people. So, it could be a prophetic dream or simple nightmare caused by Dragonstone statuary, but not a manifestation of BoTD per se. IMHO, YMMV.

 

If Shireen is seeing the future, she falls in a different category than Dany and Aemon, according to you. So not necessarily being drawn to the dragons, as you say. Why then still place Shireen in a third category?

[Mithras]

Mithras,

 

your scenarios are really the most counterintuitive I've ever read - and it is quite obvious that you do that on purpose, since most of your 'theories' go pretty much against common sense. Victarion resents and mistrust intelligent and learned people. Tyrion is intelligent, learned, and a dwarf. He'll neither interact with him nor ever ask for his advice. Assuming that Vic survives the coming battle, which is not clear. The very idea that this guy with some ships and warriors is going to call the shots in a city which actually contains lots and lots of warriors of their own, in combination with Dany's other forces is just laughable, I'm sorry. There are the other sellswords, the Unsullied, the brazen beasts, and the Unsullied to consider. And as stupid as Vic is Hizdahr could outmaneuver him as far as I know...

 

Everything you say about Victarion reeks with prejudice and ignorance. You can hate the guy, but please show some respect to not make such factual errors about him.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

 

George is pretty much talking the same way about Vic. I like his chapters, but he is never going to work with or listen to somebody like Tyrion.

 

Rhaenys,

 

wouldn't you expect Tywin to compare other kings and their behavior to Joffrey's character and behavior to teach him something? After all, both Aerys II and Joffrey I are kings, and as a king Joffrey is prone to emulate or follow the example of other kings rather than that of 'common men'. Joff himself brings up Targaryen kings occasionally, Aegon the Unworthy, if I remember correctly, and even Tyrion tries to highlight the fact that the Targaryen-Baratheon kings are standing in the tradition of the Targaryen kings by his choice of a wedding gift. One assumes that Tyrion had really thought his nephew might profit from reading 'The Life of Four Kings'.

 

The context there is that Joff seems apparently to emulate Aerys' behavior unknowingly when he cried out 'I'm the king!'. Tywin then draws the fitting Aerys comparison, most likely intending to teach Joffrey that he doesn't want to behave like Aerys, upon which Joffrey then challenges Tywin himself. It is perfectly reasonable to compare kings to other kings, and try to get them to not emulate the bad examples. But this doesn't mean that this has anything to do with kinship.

 

In Tyrion's case a comparison with Aerys is odd. They have nothing to do with each other. Tyrion isn't a king, he supposedly has no Targaryen blood, and they have never interacted with each other very much (although I imagine young Tyrion has seen and met Aerys II at the Lannisport tourney in 276 AC, but we don't know if he remembers any of that). One expects that Tywin would have compared Tyrion to Tytos in such a scenario, claiming that the 'bad blood' of his grandfather was apparent in him, or something like that. Tytos longed for approval and praise, too, and his faults were much more dangerous to House Lannister than any bad traits Aerys had. He may have surrounded himself with flatterers, but nobody ever tweaked the dragon's tail, or laughed about the king rather than with him.

 

As to the two theories about the Lannister siblings:

 

The difference there is that the Tyrion being Aerys' son could actually nicely fit with his future storyline as well as with the repercussions it will have for his past. Any theory about Jaime and Cersei being Targaryen bastards will completely complicate whatever stories are planned for them. I cannot even see how they may learn the truth about that or how it might be revealed to the reader. Joanna and Aerys are dead, and Barristan Selmy does not seem to believe Cersei and Jaime Lannister are Targaryen bastards - or else he would never have been willing to serve Cersei/Joffrey in the wake of Robert's death (in fact, he would have spoken up against the marriage in first place since a bastard was no fit consort for a king). What could Cersei learn from the fact that she is Aerys Targaryen's bastard daughter? How stupid would Jaime look if had slain his own father? Why did Aerys never tell Jaime he was his seed and why did he treat his own flesh and blood like shit (one assumes that Aerys II would gladly have claimed a man as handsome and capable as Jaime as his own son, especially after he had joined the KG)? Is Jaime's dream Joanna now lying when she describes Jaime and Cersei as Tywin's children yet fails to mention Tyrion?

 

And those are just some of the more glaring holes in that 'theory'.