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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.6

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It really depends. On whether Joanna was actually in love with Aerys as much as he (supposedly) lusted after her, or even more. All we know about Tywin and Joanna is that he loved her very deeply, but we have no real evidence that Joanna felt the same. We also know Joanna was effectively banished from court - unless that was part of her game to get away from Aerys (which I doubt) it seems that their relationship was terminated not by Aerys or her, but rather by Queen Rhaella (who may have done Tywin a favor this way).

 

Strictly speaking Joanna was humiliated by Aerys that night with the breast commentary. But if Joanna wasn't in love with Tywin or began to resent the man he had become Aerys could actually have called her into his chambers later on (which would also be necessary for rape scenario, I imagine) apologized to her by ensuring her that he had overstepped and had intended to hurt/slight Tywin, then they could have had a good laugh about Tywin the Prick, and have their reconciliation sex thingy.

 

Another possibility I've come up with is a deal. Joanna sleeps with Aerys one more time and he, in turn, refuses to give Tywin permission to resign as Hand the next day. The way Yandel tells the story suggest that the breast comment caused Tywin to decide to resign the next day - but what if Joanna, who allegedly ruled Tywin, decided that her husband should continue to serve as Hand because she wanted influence in the Realm through him? What if a lust for power had also been what had drawn her to Aerys in the first place? If Joanna could not dissuade Tywin from resigning the next day in the evening she may have decided to slip out of the room after Tywin had fallen asleep, gone to Aerys, and ensured that he would not accept the impending resignation.

 

In case of brutal rape of Joanna one would assume that Aerys would have accepted the resignation less Tywin ends up avenging the honor of his wife on him. But if there was some sort of deal this would make a lot more sense.

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It really depends. On whether Joanna was actually in love with Aerys as much as he (supposedly) lusted after her, or even more. All we know about Tywin and Joanna is that he loved her very deeply, but we have no real evidence that Joanna felt the same. We also know Joanna was effectively banished from court - unless that was part of her game to get away from Aerys (which I doubt) it seems that their relationship was terminated not by Aerys or her, but rather by Queen Rhaella (who may have done Tywin a favor this way).

 

I agree with this; the first break in their relationship wasn't their choice, but Rhaella's (and it came after Joanna's marriage- I'd love to know what Tywin's reaction was to that), which is why I think they continued with their affair.  Obviously not as openly or as often as before, but whenever they could.  At the very least, after the twins were born, Aerys moved the entire court to Casterly Rock and lived there for a year.  If they hadn't continued being lovers up to that point, I think it's possible they started again during that time.  Or perhaps Aerys wanted to start again, but Joanna rebuffed him.  Either way, after that extended stay they apparently didn't see each other for years.  With the way Aerys behaved when they did see each other again, I read a bad falling out.

 

As for how Joanna felt... based on Jaime's dream of her, she seemed to genuinely care about Tywin and be full of remorse.  I don't know how reflective a dream is supposed to be of a real person, but that matches what the relationship looks like.  In the beginning, she seems infatuated with Aerys and uncaring about Tywin, but by the end it's the opposite and she's completely cut herself off from Aerys.

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I mostly came just to have a look (I haven't really done so here much since v1 of this thread) and I have to say, great job compiling everything.
 

I've raised an objection against this "clue" from the OP before.. Euron Greyjoy has two different colored eyes as well, so Shiera is not the 'only other example'..
 
The counter argument currently stated in the OP is this
 

Where is the proof that Euron was not born with two different colored eyes? A crow is black, and having a black eye is what made him the Crow's Eye... Any trauma Euron has gotten to his eye is, at the moment, complete speculation.. Why try to use it as proof that Euron was not born with mismatched eyes, if there is no hint that Euron ever received a trauma to the eye?

 
 Its not proof of anything nor does it need to be. Its merely explaining how a possible objection might not be a problem.

Where is the proof that Euron was born with mismatched eyes? Isn't it just as much speculation that he was?
 
Note also that crows don't have black eyes. Having a black eye does not make you a 'crows-eye'. But a crow's eyes do start grey-blue (the colour of Euron's normal eye), and turn dark red/brown. So the hyphema theory fits the nickname much more appropriately than being born with mismatched eyes does. It also fits his sigil and use of a patch much better than being born with mismatched eyes does. Its not proof, but the evidence is very strong that hyphema is more likely than being born that way.
 

Tyrion is not said to cast the shadow of a king. He casted a shadow which made him look as tall as a king. There's a slight difference. Perhaps you can re-word this?


What Mithras said is true. Jon is the referenced king in this quote. However, Tyrion is also compared to that king. It can be interpreted any ways...

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Well, I can see this thing twofold - Joanna may have come willingly to Aerys (then it was reconciliation sex ) or he raped her, then Tyrion may actually be line with Dany and Jon to be part of savior trinity whose members were all born of rape and killed their children at their birth. Tyrion gets the most blame for that, but Jon and Dany killed their mothers, too.

 

I feel like you're really taking this speculation to far. As far as I know, there is no proof of any conceiving by rape on either of these three people's mother. We only know that Aerys raped Rhaella once from Jamie's POV, but that doesn't mean that was the moment Dany was conceived, neither does it mean Dany was conceived by rape at all (even though I have to agree it's likely. But at that point, you can start arguing whether or not a 'man' has the right to lay with his wife in the westoros society, and let's not get into that). There are only hints for R+L=J and A+J=T, but I don't see any clues pointing to rape in those cases. This is speculating on a theory, which IMO goes way to far. We should keep the focus on whether or not A+J=T is actually real or not. Besides, we barely know Joanna and Lyanna and never had any insight about their love (or hate) for respectively Aerys and Rhaegar, so we don't know anything.

 

It really depends. On whether Joanna was actually in love with Aerys as much as he (supposedly) lusted after her, or even more. All we know about Tywin and Joanna is that he loved her very deeply, but we have no real evidence that Joanna felt the same. We also know Joanna was effectively banished from court - unless that was part of her game to get away from Aerys (which I doubt) it seems that their relationship was terminated not by Aerys or her, but rather by Queen Rhaella (who may have done Tywin a favor this way).

 

Strictly speaking Joanna was humiliated by Aerys that night with the breast commentary. But if Joanna wasn't in love with Tywin or began to resent the man he had become Aerys could actually have called her into his chambers later on (which would also be necessary for rape scenario, I imagine) apologized to her by ensuring her that he had overstepped and had intended to hurt/slight Tywin, then they could have had a good laugh about Tywin the Prick, and have their reconciliation sex thingy.

 

Another possibility I've come up with is a deal. Joanna sleeps with Aerys one more time and he, in turn, refuses to give Tywin permission to resign as Hand the next day. The way Yandel tells the story suggest that the breast comment caused Tywin to decide to resign the next day - but what if Joanna, who allegedly ruled Tywin, decided that her husband should continue to serve as Hand because she wanted influence in the Realm through him? What if a lust for power had also been what had drawn her to Aerys in the first place? If Joanna could not dissuade Tywin from resigning the next day in the evening she may have decided to slip out of the room after Tywin had fallen asleep, gone to Aerys, and ensured that he would not accept the impending resignation.

 

In case of brutal rape of Joanna one would assume that Aerys would have accepted the resignation less Tywin ends up avenging the honor of his wife on him. But if there was some sort of deal this would make a lot more sense.

 

Exactly what I was saying above; we don’t know how Joanne felt about Aerys. Tbh, I could see her leave KL because she was afraid that she would eventually fall in the arms of Aerys (I don’t really see why that is less likely than Rhaella/Tywin sending her away). Anyway, she left.

 

Your other possibility might be right, but it might aswell be as off as rape. As I said before; we are speculating on a theory that is far from proven. I feel that we should keep the focus on the theory itself; not on speculations that are based on the assumption that the theory is true. The theory isn’t mature enough for that.

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Well, I can see this thing twofold - Joanna may have come willingly to Aerys (then it was reconciliation sex ) or he raped her, then Tyrion may actually be line with Dany and Jon to be part of savior trinity whose members were all born of rape and killed their children at their birth. Tyrion gets the most blame for that, but Jon and Dany killed their mothers, too.

 

Only Robert believes that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. We were in Ned's head all along and not a single hint we have seen about Rhaegar raping Lyanna. So, the symmetry in your scenario does not exist.

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Where is the proof that Euron was born with mismatched eyes?

 

Here is the proof:

 

A black leather patch covered Euron's left eye, but his right was blue as a summer sky.

 

[spoiler]Crowfood. Theon remembered. An old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard. He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood. Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron. He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice. Instead he had whimpered through his broken teeth and said, “I am —”[/spoiler]

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There is a good chance that if A+J=T then Aerys forced himself on to Joanna.


 
Actually based on the world book, it sounds like something as raping or by force. 


Based on the World Book... Do quote what sentence suggests rape..

If there was rape, there is no way that Tywin would have continued on as Hand for another 9 years.


 
The way it's described in WOIAF made it seem like a rape to me.  Not only does it match his general temperament, but the "rumors" about Aerys and Joanna make it seem like Aerys was a lover scorned and Joanna had cut ties with him.  The humiliation scene was the first time they'd seen each other in over five years (after carrying on an affair that lasted nearly a decade, from the time Aerys was 15 years old), and Aerys wanted to hurt her.   


The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his father's coronation and enjoyed a brief reign as his paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne can safely be discounted.


A one-night stand in 259 AC and a short affair in 262 AC, that's what there was. We also know that Aerys did not have one mistress for long periods of time. Fortnight to half a year, IIRC the statement was. Nor would Rhaella have been able to send Joanna away if Aerys was still interested in her (he was king, after all). Which suggests that his interest in her was over, shortly after her wedding. That's not an affair that lasted a decade. Not even if you wish to count from 259 to 262, which I hardly think you should do in any case. We know Aerys had mistresses in that period.

Aerys then asks Tywin to bring Joanna to court after Jaime and Cersei were born, when the children were strong enough for travel. That never happens, as far as we know, as Tytos dies and court goes to CR. Whatever Aerys' interest atm might have been in Joanna, I personally think that the sharp lesson Tywin taught Tyros' mistress was not only for the mistress... It could just as well have served as a reminder or wake-up call for Joanna, showing her how Tywin deals with such stuff.

The next time Aerys and Joanna are remotely close to one another, is 272 AC. Aerys insults her. That's his general temperament of that timeframe. Hurting people by rape or torture or execution came later (and the incident of 274 AC seems to have been the first for quite some time, seeing the remorse Aerys showed afterwards).

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Here is the proof:

 

A black leather patch covered Euron's left eye, but his right was blue as a summer sky.

 

[spoiler]Crowfood. Theon remembered. An old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard. He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood. Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron. He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice. Instead he had whimpered through his broken teeth and said, “I am —”[/spoiler]

 

Thats proof he has a blue eye and a black eye now, not proof he was born that way.

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If Joanna was raped, I cannot imagine she would not tell Tywin about it. And with the few details of his actions towards her, I do not buy that they would have had a consensual encounter either.

 

 

 

Thats proof he has a blue eye and a black eye now, not proof he was born that way.

 

Are there any other examples of someone having one eye color changed? (And I don't mean Renly.)

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Another possibility I've come up with is a deal. Joanna sleeps with Aerys one more time and he, in turn, refuses to give Tywin permission to resign as Hand the next day. The way Yandel tells the story suggest that the breast comment caused Tywin to decide to resign the next day - but what if Joanna, who allegedly ruled Tywin, decided that her husband should continue to serve as Hand because she wanted influence in the Realm through him? What if a lust for power had also been what had drawn her to Aerys in the first place? If Joanna could not dissuade Tywin from resigning the next day in the evening she may have decided to slip out of the room after Tywin had fallen asleep, gone to Aerys, and ensured that he would not accept the impending resignation.

Joanna ruled Tywin. If she wanted to prevent Tywin from resigning as Hand over the insult, she would have gone to influence Tywin, not Aerys.

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Thats proof he has a blue eye and a black eye now, not proof he was born that way.

 

There is not a proof that Euron was not born with mismatched eyes. So, Occam’s razor necessitates that Euron has to be born with mismatched eyes, especially considering that there is hardly any other example of eye color change.

 

If you are going that way, note that there is no proof of Shiera being born with mismatched eyes. This information comes from an SSM of 2006.

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Rhaenys,

 

this ruling thing wasn't necessarily 'Damn it, Tywin, you know that you have to do what I want, remember?' but rather a more subtle thing. And if Tywin was pissed beyond reproach about Aerys at this point because he had humiliated his beloved wife in front of the whole court then it is actually quite likely that he wasn't willing to listen to that beloved wife that he to swallow that insult as if nothing had happened and continue as before.

 

Doorlocks,

 

we don't yet know what went on at Casterly Rock. Tywin may have been able to successfully prevent a rekindling of the affair, say, by putting Joanna under heavy guard, or by occupying her with her recently born twins.

 

Attitude,

 

it seems as if Dany was conceived in the night in which Lord Chelsted had been burned. At this time Aerys only got aroused and subsequently shared Rhaella's bed, raping and mutilating her in the process, after he had burned a man alive. That way we can be reasonably sure that Daenerys is a child of rape even if she was conceived not in the night of Chelsted's death but rather after another man was burned.

 

Rape as I (and any sane person) see it is if you are having sex with somebody who doesn't want to. That's it. The fact that so-called marital rape is perfectly okay in Westeros doesn't change that fact.

 

Lyanna and Rhaegar are a different case, but since we don't know anything about the dynamics of that relationship yet it is entirely likely that a rape occurred there, too. Lyanna was still a minor so even if she willingly had sex with Rhaegar this might be considered to be rape, too. Not to mention that Lyanna's character suggests that she might not have been willing to have sex with Rhaegar even if she loved him - if he abducted her without her knowledge and against her will.

 

It is effectively confirmed that Aerys and Joanna had an affair prior to her marriage to Tywin. Those rumors about Aerys deflowering her on the night of Jaehaerys II's coronation as well as of Joanna being Aerys' mistress shortly after his own ascension are far too concrete to be written off as mere rumors. Especially in light of Pycelle's inadvertent irony when he claims Tywin was way too proud to take the leavings of another man - we know that he took Tyrion's leavings when he fucked Shae, so Pycelle's assessment is completely wrong there, opening up the possibility that young Tywin there had no problem to take Aerys' leavings and marry Joanna.

 

Queen Rhaella wasn't happy with Aerys turning her women into whores, and subsequently dismissed them. Now, when would the queen usually do that? Certainly not while the king was having his fun with those women since Aerys wouldn't permit the banishment of his current mistress. But once he had had enough of this or that woman she would no longer enjoy his royal favor and protection, and the queen could take her revenge on her. In Joanna's case this might have been different, considering that she wasn't just a lady-in-waiting but, at the time of her dismissal, also the wife of the Hand of the King. If Aerys had already dropped Joanna by that time, Rhaella would have had little reason to complicate her own relationship to Tywin by ensuring that Joanna was no longer welcome at court - the man was recently married and certainly would have hoped to enjoy the company of his wife under normal circumstances if his feelings for her were indeed the way people tell us. But if Aerys and Joanna intended to continue their affair secretly, effectively cuckolding Tywin under his very eye, Rhaella may have felt that this was too much and took steps to prevent it the only way she could.

 

As to Euron's eye:

 

We do indeed not know for a certainty that Euron suffers from hterochromia iridum (i.e. has 'naturally occurring mismatched eyes') or whether he is a very special case indeed. Hiding the eye suggests that it looks rather weird and intimidating, or else a man like Euron would not feel the need to hide it. Think about it, the man is an evil pirate, why the hell should he hide an eye behind a patch he can actually see with? That is rather inconvenient to say the least, and shows an amount of concern for other people's feelings he clearly does not have - unless he fears that he might look to intimidating or evil if he showed the eye, and subsequently would have even diminished his chances of winning the Kingsmoot and the allegiance of the Ironborn if he did show it. Remember, Tyrion embraces the chance of intimidating/unsettling other people with the gaze of his mismatched eyes. If Euron's eyes had only such a mild effect on other people there would be no need for him to wear a patch.

 

More importantly, the whole 'black eye' thing does seem to be only part of the truth. In Sam's last chapter we get an heraldic depicting of Euron's 'evil eye' and it is both black and red, and generally strangely reminiscent of Sauron's Eye in TLotR.

 

Thoughts on Tywin:

 

I've just read a little bit in the 'Tywin's obsession with rape' thread, and if we assume Aerys actually raped Joanna, and Tywin knew that, this could actually explain a lot of stuff. Why he had Tyrion rape Tysha (to get back on Aerys through his bastard), why he had Gregor rape Elia before he killed her (to get back on Aerys and the Princess of Dorne who thwarted his plans to marry Cersei to Rhaegar).

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Rhaenys,

 

well, it is a matter of opinion, or rather one scenario. I'm seeing the same problem as you there, but since we don't know either Joanna's or Tywin's heart we have no idea what actually happened. But it gives a good explanation as to why Aerys would not accept Tywin's resignation.

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Attitude,

 

it seems as if Dany was conceived in the night in which Lord Chelsted had been burned. At this time Aerys only got aroused and subsequently shared Rhaella's bed, raping and mutilating her in the process, after he had burned a man alive. That way we can be reasonably sure that Daenerys is a child of rape even if she was conceived not in the night of Chelsted's death but rather after another man was burned.

 

Rape as I (and any sane person) see it is if you are having sex with somebody who doesn't want to. That's it. The fact that so-called marital rape is perfectly okay in Westeros doesn't change that fact.

 

Lyanna and Rhaegar are a different case, but since we don't know anything about the dynamics of that relationship yet it is entirely likely that a rape occurred there, too. Lyanna was still a minor so even if she willingly had sex with Rhaegar this might be considered to be rape, too. Not to mention that Lyanna's character suggests that she might not have been willing to have sex with Rhaegar even if she loved him - if he abducted her without her knowledge and against her will.

 

It is effectively confirmed that Aerys and Joanna had an affair prior to her marriage to Tywin. Those rumors about Aerys deflowering her on the night of Jaehaerys II's coronation as well as of Joanna being Aerys' mistress shortly after his own ascension are far too concrete to be written off as mere rumors. Especially in light of Pycelle's inadvertent irony when he claims Tywin was way too proud to take the leavings of another man - we know that he took Tyrion's leavings when he fucked Shae, so Pycelle's assessment is completely wrong there, opening up the possibility that young Tywin there had no problem to take Aerys' leavings and marry Joanna.

 

Queen Rhaella wasn't happy with Aerys turning her women into whores, and subsequently dismissed them. Now, when would the queen usually do that? Certainly not while the king was having his fun with those women since Aerys wouldn't permit the banishment of his current mistress. But once he had had enough of this or that woman she would no longer enjoy his royal favor and protection, and the queen could take her revenge on her. In Joanna's case this might have been different, considering that she wasn't just a lady-in-waiting but, at the time of her dismissal, also the wife of the Hand of the King. If Aerys had already dropped Joanna by that time, Rhaella would have had little reason to complicate her own relationship to Tywin by ensuring that Joanna was no longer welcome at court - the man was recently married and certainly would have hoped to enjoy the company of his wife under normal circumstances if his feelings for her were indeed the way people tell us. But if Aerys and Joanna intended to continue their affair secretly, effectively cuckolding Tywin under his very eye, Rhaella may have felt that this was too much and took steps to prevent it the only way she could.

 

Seems, at this time, subsequently. With these words in your first sentences, you can be ‘reasonably sure’ that Daenerys is a child of rape. That is odd. However, I have to agree that it seems reasonably that she is, even though all that stuff doesn’t support it. The entire woiaf book was written from a maesters’ perspective so it is not objective (but then again, a lot more info we share here is not, because it is from POVs).

Agreed. I just hate those ‘poor Sansa’ & who cares about Dany rape’ people (Not saying you are one of them).

 

Rhaegar was only portrayed as ‘evil’ by Robert. Robert was also the one who said Rhaegar ‘abducted and raped her.’ Robert isn’t objective at this point, and we have more people saying Rhaegar was actually a good guy (Even Ned(!)). Therefor, I don’t think he raped Lyanna. I see this as two teenagers running away from their responsibilities because they want to follow their harts. This makes a lot more sense to me. But I can, just like you, not prove this at all. But with all I’ve read about Rhaegar and Lyanna, I don’t imagine that to be abduction and rape. It doesn’t fit the story at all (GRRM likes lovestories).

 

Again, I don’t see it likely that this was the work of Rhaella. It was Tywin or Joanna herself imo. 

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Attitude,

 

'the Dany is a child of rape' thing comes from the fact that our evidence suggest that Aerys and Rhaella did no longer have consensual sex in the last years of their marriage. We know they lived apart, no longer shared each other's bed - unless Aerys got horny after burning a man alive and forced himself on her, horribly hurting her in the process.

 

Considering that Lyanna was much younger than Rhaegar when he took her (he in his early twenties, she 14-15) I could see at least some sort of sexual abuse there, Rhaegar taking advantage of young and inexperienced Lyanna. Whether this qualifies as rape or only sexual abuse is another question. However, this whole thing is only a suggestion I find intriguing if it turned out that Dany, Tyrion, and Jon turn out to be three members of a savior trinity. If that's the case, then them all being the children of rape as well as all their mothers dying giving birth to them could be no coincidence. I just find that an interesting idea.

 

What Robert's sources on Rhaegar-Lyanna are we don't know yet, however, I'd not be surprised if Robert genuinely believed that Rhaegar forced Lyanna into their relationship, even if he knew they eventually married. 'Arya' didn't choose to marry Ramsay, either, after all... Not to mention that Ned himself (and Rickard and Brandon, too) may have believed the same until he finally had a chance to meet Lyanna.

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Considering that Lyanna was much younger than Rhaegar when he took her (he in his early twenties, she 14-15) I could see at least some sort of sexual abuse there, Rhaegar taking advantage of young and inexperienced Lyanna. Whether this qualifies as rape or only sexual abuse is another question.

 

It is not a question.

 

You are twisting the facts in order to fit in a non-existent symmetry.

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I barely knew this theory before I read woiaf and I have to agree on the point that it contains several clues considering this topic.

I have to say that your explanation sounds plausible (and as I said since the beginning, I don't say A+J=T is false. I just don't believe it. Both R+L=J and A+J=T can be true and one does not necessarily exlude another. However, I don't think that if one is true (and in that case I definitly chose R+L=J) the other one will not. This idea has no evidence whatsoever, but I just don't feel like it would fit if both were true. (So if it is, I hope GRRM will bring it in an awesome way)

To keep comparing it to Jon, the biggest point for my in believing that theorie (a lot more) is because pretty much everything fits. Ned never calling Jon his son, but only his blood totally fits the picture of a honorable Ned Stark AND fits the theorie. I can't imagine a different idea besides Jon NOT being Neds kid (this doesn't necessarily backup R+L=J, but I hope you get the idea). Tywin saying: you are no son of mine on his deathbed, can also be explained for him just being very furious at his son who just killed him (that actually makes a lot of sense). I can give more of these examples, but I hope you get the point: As I see it, for many R+L=J clues only that awnser fits the profile, and I don't feel the same way about the A+J=T theory.

I also don't think that all heads have to be 'targs'. I can even see the entire prophecy about Dany be a red herring and Jon on it's own be tPtwP / AAR. However I have no support for any of these possibilities, but I am very interested in all the different ideas.

A little side note: I tend to be very (maybe even too) critical and skeptical. This makes me tend to find a way out nomatter what. It will be hard to convince me of a theory at all, and probably impossible to turn me for a 100%, because as long as GRRM hasn't confirmed anything, everything is possible (not logical, but possible)

However, keep up the good work because I love to read theories that are thoroughly researched. Me trying to take down a theorie doesn't mean I don't believe it or find it impossible, it's just in my nature to be like that. (The side note is big...)

I agree that the RLJ clues are of a different nature that the AJT clues. Based on the way GRRM constructed the series, the identity of Jon's mother had to be a known mystery and as such, when looking for who it could be, the only plausible candidate turns out to be Lyanna -- leading to RLJ. So I would put the probability of RLJ being true at about 99.99999%. Because GRRM had to hide the identity of Jon's mother, GRRM had to give clues that pretty much made it clear that none of the stated candidates could be the real mother and the Ned/Lyanna scene pretty much gives away the secret for anyone looking for it.

 

But Tyrion is a different case. There is not necessarily a mystery at all. Tyrion could just be who we all think he is and that theoretically could work for the story (although in the end I think he needs to have Targ blood for the endgame that GRRM has planned to work -- but we cannot know that until the endgame happens). So GRRM had the luxury of planting the clues in a different way. Each and every clue for AJT is planted with an "alternative" explanation. I could go down the list of the OP one-by-one and show how that clue could be true even if Tywin the biological father of Tyrion. The beauty of the mystery of AJT (assuming it is true) is how GRRM has been able to hide it in plain sight.

 

What GRRM is hoping for -- what he likes to do -- is to plant enough clues so that a few (and only a few) attentive readers will figure out the mystery -- and then after the big reveal -- any other reader can go back after-the-fact and see how GRRM cleverly planted all these clues that the reader missed. I think GRRM's biggest frustration is that he was unable to hide the clues for RLJ that well, and anyone really looking for them will find them and form a fairly conclusive idea that RLJ is true. But for AJT, GRRM has succeeded. In fact, a relatively recent Reddit poll had a relatively small percentage of people on that forum believing in AJT (I think only 15% if I remember correctly). People get used to seeing Tyrion in a certain way and are reluctant to see him differently without definitive proof. There is no way GRRM will give definitive proof until he is ready for the "big reveal" so people will continue to discount it. And most people who read the books don't go on these type of forums and thus have no idea that AJT is even a theory -- mission accomplished.

 

But for those of us who want to figure out these mysteries ahead of time, the evidence is fairly strong that AJT is correct. Not only does GRRM drop clues like hair color and Joanna's sexual past with Aerys, but this development answers a more central mystery of the series -- who are the three heads of the dragon. With Jon and Dany appearing to be certainties for two of the heads, who can be the third? While the third is not "necessarily" a Targ (as GRRM put it), the third almost certainly must have Targ blood. If there is no Targ blood, how can this character be "of the dragon" at all? So Tryion as a Targ bastard fits into what appears to be the endgame of three Targ descendants coming together as a team to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. At least, that is how I see the endgame playing out based on the description GRRM has given regarding TPTWP/AAR/3HD prophecies and why AJT makes so much sense to me. In addition, for me what has always been the clincher is that three main characters (perhaps the three main characters) all had their mothers die in connection with giving them birth -- reminiscent of powerful blood magic needed to give these three the powers needed to be the three heads of the dragon. Once that conclusion fell into place for me, the rest just seemed to follow naturally.

 

I mostly came just to have a look (I haven't really done so here much since v1 of this thread) and I have to say, great job compiling everything.
 

 
 Its not proof of anything nor does it need to be. Its merely explaining how a possible objection might not be a problem.

Where is the proof that Euron was born with mismatched eyes? Isn't it just as much speculation that he was?
 
Note also that crows don't have black eyes. Having a black eye does not make you a 'crows-eye'. But a crow's eyes do start grey-blue (the colour of Euron's normal eye), and turn dark red/brown. So the hyphema theory fits the nickname much more appropriately than being born with mismatched eyes does. It also fits his sigil and use of a patch much better than being born with mismatched eyes does. Its not proof, but the evidence is very strong that hyphema is more likely than being born that way.
 


What Mithras said is true. Jon is the referenced king in this quote. However, Tyrion is also compared to that king. It can be interpreted any ways...

 

 

Thanks for dropping in. Stop by any time. :cheers:

 

I think your analysis and the comments of LV regarding the eye is fairly persuasive to me. While we cannot know for sure, it seems highly likely to me that something happened to that covered eye that is quite a bit different that just being born with eyes of different colors, as appears to be the case with Tyrion and Shiera. The OP talks about the similarity between Tyrion and Shiera -- and there seems to be a similarity in how their eyes are described. Euron's situation seems completely different and the mismatch element of his eyes is not described at all in the same manner. The point is whether GRRM is trying to drop an allusion that could be seen by the reader to clue the reader into the possibility of AJT. Shiera is the only other character described as simply having mismatched eyes. Euron's situation is described as much more mysterious and potentially "magical" or possibly the result of injury -- not the same as Tyrion and Shiera. So I think the OP, as set forth, which include the arguments regarding whether Euron is a counter-example, remains fair.

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 Shiera is the only other character described as simply having mismatched eyes. 

 

Only in an SSM, spoken in 2006. This is not as canon as the published material.

 

I should also add that this counterargument against the mismatched eyes of Euron looks like total ignorance. You really should stop treating the mismatched eyes of Tyrion as some proof of Targaryen heritage.

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Attitude,

 

'the Dany is a child of rape' thing comes from the fact that our evidence suggest that Aerys and Rhaella did no longer have consensual sex in the last years of their marriage. We know they lived apart, no longer shared each other's bed - unless Aerys got horny after burning a man alive and forced himself on her, horribly hurting her in the process.

 

Considering that Lyanna was much younger than Rhaegar when he took her (he in his early twenties, she 14-15) I could see at least some sort of sexual abuse there, Rhaegar taking advantage of young and inexperienced Lyanna. Whether this qualifies as rape or only sexual abuse is another question. However, this whole thing is only a suggestion I find intriguing if it turned out that Dany, Tyrion, and Jon turn out to be three members of a savior trinity. If that's the case, then them all being the children of rape as well as all their mothers dying giving birth to them could be no coincidence. I just find that an interesting idea.

 

What Robert's sources on Rhaegar-Lyanna are we don't know yet, however, I'd not be surprised if Robert genuinely believed that Rhaegar forced Lyanna into their relationship, even if he knew they eventually married. 'Arya' didn't choose to marry Ramsay, either, after all... Not to mention that Ned himself (and Rickard and Brandon, too) may have believed the same until he finally had a chance to meet Lyanna.

 

That would make Rhaegar a pedophile at most (not that's really good). Besides, that's something that happens on a daily bases in the real world, and I don't even know if it such a big problem. Not very long ago, it was normal for girls of age 14/15 to already have children, even in the 'first world countries.' In many other countries (some in Africa for example) it's normal to get a first child when you're that age (and nature agrees). You might consider it 'taking advantage' at most, but that's very different from rape. 

 

I don't think Robert had any sources at all. I think Robert knew Lyanna liked Rhaegar (or at least liked Rhaegar more than him) and that's why he hated him (pure jealousy).

 

At this point, trying to relate them all together on a 'rape conceiving' is way to far stretched for me. At this point, they all 'killed' their mother at child birth (Assuming R+L=J is true), and maybe that's not a coïncidence either. Besides, doesn't Tyrion have targ blood already? (found [url=http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103904-lannisters-and-plumms/]this[/url] about it)

 

I agree that the RLJ clues are of a different nature that the AJT clues. Based on the way GRRM constructed the series, the identity of Jon's mother had to be a known mystery and as such, when looking for who it could be, the only plausible candidate turns out to be Lyanna -- leading to RLJ. So I would put the probability of RLJ being true at about 99.99999%. Because GRRM had to hide the identity of Jon's mother, GRRM had to give clues that pretty much made it clear that none of the stated candidates could be the real mother and the Ned/Lyanna scene pretty much gives away the secret for anyone looking for it.

 

But Tyrion is a different case. There is not necessarily a mystery at all. Tyrion could just be who we all think he is and that theoretically could work for the story (although in the end I think he needs to have Targ blood for the endgame that GRRM has planned to work -- but we cannot know that until the endgame happens). So GRRM had the luxury of planting the clues in a different way. Each and every clue for AJT is planted with an "alternative" explanation. I could go down the list of the OP one-by-one and show how that clue could be true even if Tywin the biological father of Tyrion. The beauty of the mystery of AJT (assuming it is true) is how GRRM has been able to hide it in plain sight.

 

What GRRM is hoping for -- what he likes to do -- is to plant enough clues so that a few (and only a few) attentive readers will figure out the mystery -- and then after the big reveal -- any other reader can go back after-the-fact and see how GRRM cleverly planted all these clues that the reader missed. I think GRRM's biggest frustration is that he was unable to hide the clues for RLJ that well, and anyone really looking for them will find them and form a fairly conclusive idea that RLJ is true. But for AJT, GRRM has succeeded. In fact, a relatively recent Reddit poll had a relatively small percentage of people on that forum believing in AJT (I think only 15% if I remember correctly). People get used to seeing Tyrion in a certain way and are reluctant to see him differently without definitive proof. There is no way GRRM will give definitive proof until he is ready for the "big reveal" so people will continue to discount it. And most people who read the books don't go on these type of forums and thus have no idea that AJT is even a theory -- mission accomplished.

 

But for those of us who want to figure out these mysteries ahead of time, the evidence is fairly strong that AJT is correct. Not only does GRRM drop clues like hair color and Joanna's sexual past with Aerys, but this development answers a more central mystery of the series -- who are the three heads of the dragon. With Jon and Dany appearing to be certainties for two of the heads, who can be the third? While the third is not "necessarily" a Targ (as GRRM put it), the third almost certainly must have Targ blood. If there is no Targ blood, how can this character be "of the dragon" at all? So Tryion as a Targ bastard fits into what appears to be the endgame of three Targ descendants coming together as a team to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. At least, that is how I see the endgame playing out based on the description GRRM has given regarding TPTWP/AAR/3HD prophecies and why AJT makes so much sense to me. In addition, for me what has always been the clincher is that three main characters (perhaps the three main characters) all had their mothers die in connection with giving them birth -- reminiscent of powerful blood magic needed to give these three the powers needed to be the three heads of the dragon. Once that conclusion fell into place for me, the rest just seemed to follow naturally.

 

I have to say that I agree for most parts on this, because I've felt that Tyrion, Dany and Jon are the three heads for a very long time. However, I could never fit Tyrion in. A+J=T doesn't make it fit for me either. It just feels to me like 'a way to explain it all'. That doesn't mean I think it is false, but it does makes me feel like it's less likely true.

 

As far as I always understood, Tyrion has got dragonblood, so there is no need for him to be targ. He can still become one of the heads! 

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