A+J=T v.6

[Jô Maltese]

does this mean tyrion comes before everyone for the iron throne?

If Dany makes him legitimate... Yes.

[to steel]

^^^ Christmas? For WoW? Latest speculation I read seemed more like late 2016 or early 2017 (as GRRM would not confirm that he expected WoW to come out before the next season of HBO GoT).

 

By the way, assuming we are confirmed to be correct on this theory, what do you think will be the reactions of the hard-core objectors? I know some of them will simply state that they still think GRRM made a mistake by having another "secret Targ" and "ruining the Tywin/Tyrion" relationship. But others, who have focused more on how "weak" the theory is and how flimsy the evidence (posters like Mithras -- but others as well), will they disappear or will then have some excuse for being wrong (or just "man-up" and admit the mistake -- lol -- like that would really happen)?

 

thats rude but i see your point.. but what if it doesnt come true.. where will you go? :O

[to steel]

If Dany makes him legitimate... Yes.

 

she might marry him to keep the targaryen tradition.

[to steel]

by the way why is r+l=j pinned and not this?

[Jô Maltese]

 

she might marry him to keep the targaryen tradition.

 

I am only speculating here, no textual rationale or remote clues whatsoever. But if this happens, then I see it more on Dany's death bed...

[to steel]

 

I am only speculating here, no textual rationale or remote clues whatsoever. But if this happens, then I see it more on Dany's death bed...

 

hmm possible keep up the good job

[UnmaskedLurker]

SS--

 

I definitely agree that coming on this board and taking "public" positions over a long period of time causes a person to dig in mentally. So if someone came up with a red wedding theory before the book came out and others spent years arguing that the red wedding cannot occur (because Robb is too central to kill that way or because the Freys and Boltons would be stupid to do that or any other reasons), those people would have a harder time dealing with having been so wrong.

 

So no matter how GRRM presents that issue in the book, those who have spent years arguing how bad it would be are less likely to see things differently after the reveal (and complain about GRRM's writing) and those who argued how weak the theory is probably mostly would just disappear from any such threads, as you suggest. But there is a difference between your theory on the anniversary tourney, which I know you predicted but which was not the central subject to extensive arguments back and forth in a high profile thread -- and the AJT theory itself, which has been the subject of extensive debate and the focus of a now fairly well-known thread. But the ones who have the courtesy to admit they were wrong -- it will be interesting to see what they say.

 

ts--

 

Assuming a Targ restoration of the IT, I don't think a legitimized bastard ever comes before a "true born" heir, so even if legitimized, I think Tyrion would still come behind Dany and Jon (assuming R&L were married). 

 

And I did not think I was being rude. If you go back and see what some people have posted about this theory, I think I was engaging in restraint. But once it is clear, one way or the other, which side of the argument has been correct (assuming I am still around, which I expect to be), I plan to come to this thread and either state that the theory has been confirmed and thus no need to keep debating the issue (although people are free to continue to discuss the issue and its implications) or admit I was wrong and that I either saw clues that were not there or GRRM simply went out of his way to fool some people and I fell for it. I will not hide or try to re-write history. I will admit my mistake and take my lumps. I do not intend to disappear from the boards or try to avoid admitting my mistake. I know some of my theories will turn out not to be correct. I have more faith in this one than some others, but if I turn out to be wrong, then so be it and I will own up to it.

 

As to pinning this thread, it won't happen (and I actually like it that way). The moderators have stated that there will be no more pinned threads. The RLJ thread was pinned early on -- before my time even as a lurker -- presumably due to the extensive interest in the subject. But I prefer to keep this thread focused on the subject at hand -- and pinned threads tend to get too much side talk.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

 

thats rude but i see your point.. but what if it doesnt come true.. where will you go? :o

If it's not true, I will admit to being wrong as many times as it takes. I've been right about a lot of things so far, so I'm not too worried, I think that UL will also own up and admit if he is wrong, if in fact he is wrong, as well.

[shk12344]

by the way why is r+l=j pinned and not this?

......because A+J=T is a  deeply flawed theory that has impassioned, but very limited following.

[UnmaskedLurker]

......because A+J=T is a  deeply flawed theory that has impassioned, but very limited following.

Please elaborate on what you view as the flaws in the theory. While I admit that this theory has only a limited following, and while I know many people object to the theory on various grounds, I am curious why you think the theory is flawed.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

 

George has explicitly stated that it is unclear whether a legitimized bastard comes before a 'trueborn' son. After all, the whole point in legitimizing somebody is to make him 'trueborn' so there shouldn't be any difference, right?

 

If Tyrion is legitimized as a Targaryen he would, strictly, speaking have a better claim than Daenerys herself. However, considering that she is most likely going to be who legitimizes him - if that happens at all - it is unlikely that he'll push his claim against her. He might become her Hand, and possibly even her consort (although most likely in a strictly arranged match, at least on Dany's part) as well as her immediate heir. If Dany would die before she and Tyrion meet Jon Snow and learn the truth about his heritage, Tyrion might push his own claim to the throne, and he might continue to do that even after he learns the truth about Jon.

[shk12344]

Please elaborate on what you view as the flaws in the theory. While I admit that this theory has only a limited following, and while I know many people object to the theory on various grounds, I am curious why you think the theory is flawed.

The biggest one is, story wise, it's entirely dependent on one throw away rumor by Barristan Selmy. It would be equivalent to developing theory of Jon Snow parents based on  Wylla or Fisherman's daughter.

 

While all the  "clues" and "foreshadowing" to support the theory are intriguing, ultimately they are subjective and open to different interpretation. Without storyline to support it, it becomes just another fan fiction, at least in my book.

 

And I have always believed there is only one secret Targaryean in the book, Jon Snow.

[Lord Varys]

shk12344,

 

well, then Maester Aemon, Aegon, and Bloodraven already proved you wrong.

 

The theory isn't only based on a rumor by Barristan - that rumors was elaborated on and confirmed in TWoIaF. It is no longer a rumor, it is effectively a fact, and Aerys and Joanna now have also gotten the opportunity to have sex at the right time to conceive Tyrion. Hell, we don't even know for sure Rhaegar wasn't sterile or Lyanna wasn't barren, but in Aerys and Joanna's case we know they are fertile, and had the opportunity and (at least one of them) may have been rather eager to get it done.

[shk12344]

shk12344,

 

well, then Maester Aemon, Aegon, and Bloodraven already proved you wrong.

 

The theory isn't only based on a rumor by Barristan - that rumors was elaborated on and confirmed in TWoIaF. It is no longer a rumor, it is effectively a fact, and Aerys and Joanna now have also gotten the opportunity to have sex at the right time to conceive Tyrion. Hell, we don't even know for sure Rhaegar wasn't sterile or Lyanna wasn't barren, but in Aerys and Joanna's case we know they are fertile, and had the opportunity and (at least one of them) may have been rather eager to get it done.

It wasn't confirmed in TWolaF, it provided a timeline that makes it possible for  A + J to happen. Possibility isn't confirmation. I would put that in the same level of probability as Arthur Dayne being the father of John Snow.

 

If it was important as people in this thread claims to be and given the overall importance of Tryion's character in the book,  GRRM would have given it  story arc similar to  that of Jon Snow. But unlike Jon, Tyrion doesn't question his parentage, nor does anyone close to him. After five books, the "bastardness" of Tyrion  plays zero role in his character development or  his journey.

[Jô Maltese]

It wasn't confirmed in TWolaF, it provided a timeline that makes it possible for  A + J to happen. Possibility isn't confirmation. I would put that in the same level of probability as Arthur Dayne being the father of John Snow.

 

If it was important as people in this thread claims to be and given the overall importance of Tryion's character in the book,  GRRM would have given it  story arc similar to  that of Jon Snow. But unlike Jon, Tyrion doesn't question his parentage, nor does anyone close to him. After five books, the "bastardness" of Tyrion  plays zero role in his character development or  his journey.

As a dwarf, dixit Tyrion himself, he is a bastard in his father's [Tywin here] eyes. My understanding of Tyrion's character development / journey is exactly the opposite of yours: because of the rejection of his family he feels like a bastard and definitely acts as such, looking for recognition or for love consistently throughout the story. In a way, his arc is in itself a "meta-hint" that he is, indeed, a bastard.

[Lord Varys]

shk12344,

 

I did not say the theory was confirmed, I said that the rumors from ADwD were confirmed. Aerys and Joanna did have an affair prior to Joanna's marriage to Tywin, that much is clear now. Considering that George gave us a workable time line for the Tyrion theory one really has to ask why he did that. Usually this is the amount of subtle hints he gives if he wants to lead us somewhere. You can compare it with the other clues about Jon Snow's parentage, the hints in AGoT pointing towards Jon Arryn's true murderer etc. I do not remember any false clues of this sort turning out to be misleading. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It wasn't confirmed in TWolaF, it provided a timeline that makes it possible for  A + J to happen. Possibility isn't confirmation. I would put that in the same level of probability as Arthur Dayne being the father of John Snow.

 

If it was important as people in this thread claims to be and given the overall importance of Tryion's character in the book,  GRRM would have given it  story arc similar to  that of Jon Snow. But unlike Jon, Tyrion doesn't question his parentage, nor does anyone close to him. After five books, the "bastardness" of Tyrion  plays zero role in his character development or  his journey.

hahahahaha,  you cannot be serious!\

 

Tyrion says that his father doubts his paternity 3 or 4 times.  And Tywin himself mentions it twice in the books before telling Tyrion with his dying words "You are no son of mine."

 

Also (since you have not read the whole thread) Ill repost this; App on Joanna;

"In later years, Tywin's troubled relationship with Tyrion leads him to tell him that he wished he could prove Tyrion was not his son, suggesting that he is uncertain of Tyrion's parentage."

 

So you're wrong.

[Lost Melnibonean]

hahahahaha,  you cannot be serious!\
 
Tyrion says that his father doubts his paternity 3 or 4 times.  And Tywin himself mentions it twice in the books before telling Tyrion with his dying words "You are no son of mine."
 
Also (since you have not read the whole thread) Ill repost this; App on Joanna;
"In later years, Tywin's troubled relationship with Tyrion leads him to tell him that he wished he could prove Tyrion was not his son, suggesting that he is uncertain of Tyrion's parentage."
 
So you're wrong.

I think what the dude meant was that none of the characters ever seriously believe that Tyrion is anybody's son but Tywin's. On the other hand, none of the characters ever seriously believe that Eddard is not Jon's father.

[UnmaskedLurker]

It wasn't confirmed in TWolaF, it provided a timeline that makes it possible for  A + J to happen. Possibility isn't confirmation. I would put that in the same level of probability as Arthur Dayne being the father of John Snow.

 

If it was important as people in this thread claims to be and given the overall importance of Tryion's character in the book,  GRRM would have given it  story arc similar to  that of Jon Snow. But unlike Jon, Tyrion doesn't question his parentage, nor does anyone close to him. After five books, the "bastardness" of Tyrion  plays zero role in his character development or  his journey.

I agree with the points made by JM and LV. I had been lurking on this board for a while and came across the original A+J=T thread (I started v. 2 after the release of WOIAF, but I had nothing to do with v.1 and it actually was locked before I registered for the board). I found the theory convincing primarily for the following reasons: (1) the similarities among Jon, Dany and Tyrion were striking, especially the circumstances of their mothers' deaths; (2) by process of elimination, Tyrion seemed like the only viable candidate to be the third head of the dragon -- and it seemed that to be "of the dragon" a Targ parent is needed; and (3) GRRM seemed to drop little hints like pale blond hair color and fascination with dragons that pointed in the Targ direction. But one of the main issues brought up at that time to argue against the theory was that there was no evidence that Aerys and Joanna were in the right place at the right time -- Aerys being at KL and Joanna at CR. Now I never found that argument convincing, as we knew that people are not "nailed down to one spot" (as I think GRRM once noted regarding Ashara), but admittedly, we had no clues that confirmed that they could have been at the right place at the right time.

 

Then WOIAF came out and GRRM confirmed that Aerys and Joanna were both in KL in the year prior to Tyrion's birth. And GRRM basically confirmed that they had an affair years prior -- and Aerys makes a sexually suggestive comment to Joanna at the anniversary tourney -- which admittedly was insulting but showed that he was still thinking about her sexually. Another subtle "clue" is that we find out the Aerys's grandmother, Betha Blackwood, had black hair, potentially explaining the black streaks in Tyrion's hair. There are no other reported cases of a Lannister having black hair or black streaks.

 

Now you can go back to the OP of this thread and see all of the other clues in support of A+J=T. The rumors regarding Aerys and Joanna in DwD certainly is just one of a long list of potential clues. While each of these clues might have an "alternative" or "more natural" explanation than AJT, why are there so many of them? Why does GRRM bother to drop so many clues if they are just false leads? Coincidence -- is he not really intending to drop clues and we are seeing what we want to see? Is GRRM just dropping clues to be mischievous -- to "punk" a small number of people who will be taken in by these false clues? I have yet to come up with a good explanation for why GRRM would drop all of these clues if they were not really clues to A+J=T

 

As to your Arthur Dayne analogy -- I have two problems with it. One is that in that case, we have a much better candidate -- Rhaegar. Rhaegar as the father allows Jon to be a head of the dragon and possibly TPTWP. It makes Jon the combination of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar). And we have direct statements about Lyanna being Rhaegar's love. Could Rhaegar be a red herring for Dayne? I don't think so. We already have direct statement that Ned is Jon's father. Readers are not expected to go looking for alternative candidates. And the most direct evidence against this theory, Ned calls Dayne the best knight he knew (or something like that). Ned would not consider Dayne such a great knight if he broke his KG vows by having a child with Lyanna. 

 

There is no evidence, however, that argues directly against AJT. Tywin as the father is not like Rhaegar as red herring for Dayne. Tywin is like Ned -- the stated father, but not really the father. No one in the story every questions whether Ned is really the father of Jon. Only the identity of Jon's mother is a known mystery.

 

As to story arc implication, I think the central story arc imperative is that GRRM needs the third head of the dragon. Apparently, as best that can be pieced together from comments by Rhaegar (in HotU vision) and Aemon, the Targs received a prophecy that the three heads of the dragon would be instrumental in winning the upcoming war for the dawn. What I take from this information is that GRRM has set up a situation in which 3 Targs will be the "war generals" in the upcoming battle against the Others. But only 1 character that is a realistic candidate to be a head of the dragon is a known Targ -- Dany. So the story needs 2 "hidden" Targs to be revealed as the other 2 heads. GRRM has set this situation up by periodically revealing that there are more Targs out there than we might have thought -- like Bloodraven and Aemon (not that their identity as Targs was ever a secret or unknown to themselves, but not initially known by the readers). He also sets up a situation where Tyrion is not accepted by his father -- apparently due to him leading to the death of Joanna, being a dwarf and a "whore monger" -- but those explanations for Tywin's antipathy really don't match Tywin's personality. While appearances matter to Tywin, he also seems to care about his family, and for some reason, he hates Tyrion.

 

Now many people -- maybe even most people -- think that this blind hatred is the crux of their relationship and AJT would "ruin" that relationship by giving Tywin an "excuse" for his views. I understand that view, but I disagree. I think this revelation explains Tywin's behavior and allows for Tyrion's character to advance. Tyrion is stuck in self-pity mode. He needs something to push his character forward. AJT revelation would do just that. So from a character development angle, this revelation works. Also consider that Jon thought he was a bastard and, if Rhaegar married Lyanna, will find out that he really is the "true-born" son of the former crown prince. Tyrion had the benefits of being treated as the "true born" son of a High Lord -- but may find out he really is the bastard of the mad King. I think that parallel works from a story arc point of view.

[Jô Maltese]

(...)

:agree: Three heads has the dragon: one true head in plain sight (Dany), one true head hidden (Jon)... And one bastard head, hidden (Tyrion)... The most dangerous one?