Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.6

Recommended Posts

 

 So, Occam’s razor necessitates that Euron has to be born with mismatched eyes, especially considering that there is hardly any other example of eye color change.

 

 

There is something wrong with that eye besides it's color, or Euron wouldn't be wearing an eye-patch. Tyrion isn't physically inconvenienced by his black eye, but Euron clearly is, and that fits trauma more than simply heterochromy. Maybe some kind of head trauma that caused  extreme relaxation of the pupil, or something along these lines. There are hints that The Three-Eyed Raven contacted him at some point, which would fit a life-threatening injury narrative too. Or it could be magical in some way (though I doubt it).

In any case, being one-eyed is a serious enough handicap for a warrior that I don't see Euron deciding to give up vision on one eye lightly. And he is somebody who relishes being unsettling, so IMHO if he could leave the eye uncovered he would. 

 

Re: Aerys and Rhaella's last sexual encounter, I am convinced that the secret passage to the bedchamber of the Hand was involved and Tyrion sort of came full circle there. It fits very well with one of the versions of Arthurian legend (as does the triangle between a king, his powerful and loyal vassal and the latter's wife, who used to serve the queen (!)). The whole mirroring and sharing of different parts of the Arthurian legend between Jon and Tyrion would be deliciously ironic, particularly since Jon is such an obvious Arthurian archetype, while Tyrion is anything but.

 

Re: chances of Joanna telling Tywin and Aerys's expectations re: her doing so may be very much reduced by their known previous history. Even if Tywin doing something dangerous to House Lannister and their kids in an attempt to avenge her had not been a consideration (as it likely very much was), there would always be the chance of Tywin suspecting her of willing adultery... particularly if it had happened in his own bedchamber, if she didn't realize that a wrong man got into her bed until it was too late.

So, IMHO, it is very plausible that Joanna would have kept her mouth shut... and that Aerys knew that she had little choice in the matter.

 

As to him refusing Tywin's resignation - "keep your friends close, but your enemies closer". In the capital, Tywin  was in Aerys's power. And besides, there was a powerful dysfunctional attachment  between the 2 men, so Aerys likely just didn't want to let his frenemy  go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Attitude,

 

well, in a society like Westeros women are chattel. Lyanna belongs to her father and her brothers until she is handed over to the husband they chose for her. Rape in such society - which exists as a crime - usually isn't defined as a man forcing himself on a woman but rather as a man despoiling/deflowering the property of another man - which is why the Starks didn't approve of Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna at Harrenhal, and why Brandon apparently challenged Rhaegar to a duel after the abduction.

 

From the Starks and Robert's perspective Rhaegar may be a rapist even if Lyanna went willingly with him. Her opinion on the matter isn't really important. And Robert clearly was in camp Stark there - if the male Starks didn't approve of Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna they may have had similar motives - guarding 'Lyanna's honor' and thus by extension the honor of Houses Stark and Baratheon. Of course, Robert was also emotionally involved in that because he loved Lyanna.

 

The link you give is an outdated theory. TWoIaF shot that down, and despite the fact that Mithras still desperately clings to the possibility the Lannister siblings may have inherited Targaryen blood through the female line (a Plumm daughter being being either the ancestor of Joanna's mother Marla Prester or the ancestor of Tywin's mother, Jeyne Marbrand) there is no reason to believe any of that. TWoIaF could have mentioned or build up to that, especially since George could easily have chosen such a Plumm daughter as a paternal ancestor of the Lannisters (i.e. making Tytos' wife or Gerold's wife a Plumm) but he chose to not do that. Instead he built a case for Tyrion being Aerys' bastard by Joanna. We don't even have textual evidence that there were any female Plumms in the last couple of generations. Elaena's son by Lord Ossifer Plumm (or Aegon IV), Lord Viserys Plumm, was an only child. We know that he had multiple sons (one of whom is Brown Ben's ancestor) but no daughters are mentioned. The idea is also rather hilarious that any house of good standing in the West would take a bride from an impoverished line of unrecognized royal bastards. Ossifer clearly didn't father Viserys, and the Unworthy claimed all the Plumm wealth for himself.

 

The idea that the average reader would understand how the hell Tyrion has Targaryen blood if he becomes a dragonrider because he has Targaryen blood through the Plumms wouldn't be easy to convey. With our genealogical knowledge we can't deduce that, and even Brown Ben has no exact idea either who his ancestors were. Are we supposed to believe George intends to give us another boring genealogical study how the Plumm-Targaryens are the ancestors of Tyrion? That is not very likely - it served a purpose with Littlefinger's story about Jon Arryn's kin since the question of Robert's heir is important, but here it is not. Not to mention that Tyrion succeeding with such a drop of dragon blood when Quentyn - who would had about as much Targaryen blood - failed at the same task is quite unlikely. Quentyn was no dwarf and could actually intimidate the Viserion. Tyrion will look more or less like a walking meal to any dragon he approaches, and should have no chance of bonding with a dragon unless he smells a lot like Daenerys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

That would make Rhaegar a pedophile at most (not that's really good). Besides, that's something that happens on a daily bases in the real world, and I don't even know if it such a big problem. Not very long ago, it was normal for girls of age 14/15 to already have children, even in the 'first world countries.' In many other countries (some in Africa for example) it's normal to get a first child when you're that age (and nature agrees). You might consider it 'taking advantage' at most, but that's very different from rape. 

 

I don't think Robert had any sources at all. I think Robert knew Lyanna liked Rhaegar (or at least liked Rhaegar more than him) and that's why he hated him (pure jealousy).

 

At this point, trying to relate them all together on a 'rape conceiving' is way to far stretched for me. At this point, they all 'killed' their mother at child birth (Assuming R+L=J is true), and maybe that's not a coïncidence either. Besides, doesn't Tyrion have targ blood already? (found this about it)

 


 

I have to say that I agree for most parts on this, because I've felt that Tyrion, Dany and Jon are the three heads for a very long time. However, I could never fit Tyrion in. A+J=T doesn't make it fit for me either. It just feels to me like 'a way to explain it all'. That doesn't mean I think it is false, but it does makes me feel like it's less likely true.

 

As far as I always understood, Tyrion has got dragonblood, so there is no need for him to be targ. He can still become one of the heads! 

What??? If AJT is not correct, how does Tyrion have dragonblood? Dragonblood is understood in this series to be Targ genes. We know of no ancestor of Tyrion who was a Targ. And going back too many generations makes no sense. We have the family tree going back at least 4-5 generations -- and no Targs. For GRRM out of nowhere to let the readers know now that 6 generations ago there was a Targ ancestor and that makes Tyrion have dragonblood does not work. Tyrion even makes the point when speaking to BBP that it takes "more than a drop" to be attractive to dragons.

 

Unless Tyrion is the son of Aerys, he doe not have dragonblood, he does not fit as a head of the dragon and he certainly could not bond with a dragon. I simply have no idea what you mean by saying that Tyrion has dragonblood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Based on the World Book... Do quote what sentence suggests rape..

If there was rape, there is no way that Tywin would have continued on as Hand for another 9 years.


 

The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his father's coronation and enjoyed a brief reign as his paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne can safely be discounted.


A one-night stand in 259 AC and a short affair in 262 AC, that's what there was. We also know that Aerys did not have one mistress for long periods of time. Fortnight to half a year, IIRC the statement was. Nor would Rhaella have been able to send Joanna away if Aerys was still interested in her (he was king, after all). Which suggests that his interest in her was over, shortly after her wedding. That's not an affair that lasted a decade. Not even if you wish to count from 259 to 262, which I hardly think you should do in any case. We know Aerys had mistresses in that period.

Aerys then asks Tywin to bring Joanna to court after Jaime and Cersei were born, when the children were strong enough for travel. That never happens, as far as we know, as Tytos dies and court goes to CR. Whatever Aerys' interest atm might have been in Joanna, I personally think that the sharp lesson Tywin taught Tyros' mistress was not only for the mistress... It could just as well have served as a reminder or wake-up call for Joanna, showing her how Tywin deals with such stuff.

The next time Aerys and Joanna are remotely close to one another, is 272 AC. Aerys insults her. That's his general temperament of that timeframe. Hurting people by rape or torture or execution came later (and the incident of 274 AC seems to have been the first for quite some time, seeing the remorse Aerys showed afterwards).

 

It may have been consensual or it may have been rape.

Aerys forces himself on Rhaella in front of the King's Guard later before the Sack of King's Landing so it is not like Aerys is above rape.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

UL,

 

theoretically it is possible that the Lannisters have Targaryen blood through the female line. The family tree did not cover the line of Tywin and Joanna's maternal ancestors. But making that a plot point is just a ridiculous idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

UL,

 

theoretically it is possible that the Lannisters have Targaryen blood through the female line. The family tree did not cover the line of Tywin and Joanna's maternal ancestors. But making that a plot point is just a ridiculous idea.

Right. That is my point. No overt references to Targs or people with known Targ blood in the official family tree. So while possible, quite odd to make it a plot point. GRRM usually gives some sort of clue for something like that -- and here nothing. While the AJT clues are all over the place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to mention that known Targaryen blood in the Lannister line would have made Cersei a much more suitable bride for Rhaegar, and the idea that Tywin or Jaime/Cersei could have tried to claim the throne for themselves by right of their descent from Princess Elaena and Aegon III after Robert's death would have looked much more appealing then. It is quite clear that the Lannisters rule in KL after the Iron Throne, yet neither Tyrion, nor Tywin or Cersei ever contemplate the idea that they could rule Westeros in their own right. Which suggests that they have no Targaryen blood at all (at least not officially). Tywin's power and wealth would have made even such a remote claim as descent from Elaena and Aegon III look quite good. Especially since the Lannisters already had all the actual power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


What??? If AJT is not correct, how does Tyrion have dragonblood? Dragonblood is understood in this series to be Targ genes. We know of no ancestor of Tyrion who was a Targ. And going back too many generations makes no sense. We have the family tree going back at least 4-5 generations -- and no Targs. For GRRM out of nowhere to let the readers know now that 6 generations ago there was a Targ ancestor and that makes Tyrion have dragonblood does not work. Tyrion even makes the point when speaking to BBP that it takes "more than a drop" to be attractive to dragons.
 
Unless Tyrion is the son of Aerys, he doe not have dragonblood, he does not fit as a head of the dragon and he certainly could not bond with a dragon. I simply have no idea what you mean by saying that Tyrion has dragonblood.


I've read it somewhere on the forums iirc, but that was quite some time ago. Mayne before twoiaf book was out (and thus mere speculation?)?

I guess that if Tyrion would ride a dragon it would mean he has targ blood. Nothing else makes sense except for A+J=T in that case. Introducing a long lost targ line in their family would be very lame and not GRRM like, I agree to that.

So I guess we will learn that in tWoW.

Offtopic: Short question: how do you actually think JS will "survive" the stabbing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a buyer of this theory. The world book made it very possible. 

However, one point here. I know TV show basically is an AU, but I believe main plots would not be too different. 

Tyrion as a Targ would change a lot of things, such as he can become a dragon rider, or he has some sort of thing with IT, or his attitude towards his family. 

But we do not have any hint from the show about it. 

This made me feel that maybe it is not important if he is a Targ or not. And in fact, nobody can be sure he is the targ bastard because nobody can reveal it and confirm it. So he would remain as a Laninister through the book. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've read it somewhere on the forums iirc, but that was quite some time ago. Mayne before twoiaf book was out (and thus mere speculation?)?

I guess that if Tyrion would ride a dragon it would mean he has targ blood. Nothing else makes sense except for A+J=T in that case. Introducing a long lost targ line in their family would be very lame and not GRRM like, I agree to that.

So I guess we will learn that in tWoW.

Offtopic: Short question: how do you actually think JS will "survive" the stabbing?

The JS survival is a question I have pondered and failed to find convincing clues for one solution or another. What I believe is that for the plot to make sense the way it has been constructed, Jon cannot die permanently and he cannot come back in the same way that Beric or Cat came back -- i.e., he cannot be "less" of himself -- he needs to be the entire original Jon Snow. Now that does not mean that the experience won't change him -- it definitely will, but that will be more along the lines of character development than losing a part of himself as seems to happen in traditional resurrections.

 

So I am left with two possibilities that make sense to me. One is that he is in a long-term coma -- like Bran was -- and is eventually brought out of it through some sacrifice (as many think the death of Lady did for Bran). Or he really is dead but having warged into Ghost, when he is resurrected, he is brought back fully in tact because by transferring his consciousness to Ghost, he was able to avoid losing part of himself in the process. Of course, some sacrifice would be needed for the resurrection as well. The main candidates for sacrifice under either scenario seem to be Shireen, Theon or Ghost. I am not sure which it will be or how it will happen. I just don't think the clues are clear enough at this point to know for sure. But I am fairly certain Jon will come back but for much of WoW, I think he will be stuck in Ghost.

 

I am a buyer of this theory. The world book made it very possible. 

However, one point here. I know TV show basically is an AU, but I believe main plots would not be too different. 

Tyrion as a Targ would change a lot of things, such as he can become a dragon rider, or he has some sort of thing with IT, or his attitude towards his family. 

But we do not have any hint from the show about it. 

This made me feel that maybe it is not important if he is a Targ or not. And in fact, nobody can be sure he is the targ bastard because nobody can reveal it and confirm it. So he would remain as a Laninister through the book. 

 

I am reluctant to get into the show in too much depth here, but I will say the the TV show does not require the same level of foreshadowing. Yes, Selmy is dead on the show so he cannot be the source of revelation about AJT. But I think the producers may use Varys for this purpose. I think show-Varys knows (even though book-Varys might or might not), and I think he will be the source of the big reveal regarding Tyrion after he bonds with a dragon. But, of course, I am only speculating. I just think if Tyrion as a Targ is a major plot point in the book, it will be on the show as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a buyer of this theory. The world book made it very possible. 
However, one point here. I know TV show basically is an AU, but I believe main plots would not be too different. 
Tyrion as a Targ would change a lot of things, such as he can become a dragon rider, or he has some sort of thing with IT, or his attitude towards his family. 
But we do not have any hint from the show about it. 
This made me feel that maybe it is not important if he is a Targ or not. And in fact, nobody can be sure he is the targ bastard because nobody can reveal it and confirm it. So he would remain as a Laninister through the book. 


Before season 5 there was bacically no hints to R+L=J either. The show does not generally have much hints at all. But I saw the show first (I red the books before season 4) and I guessed both theories based on Jon's parentage clearly being a mystery with no clues apart from Wylla who could not be the answer and Lyanna apparently had been raped by Rhaegar. With Tyrion Tywin only said that he could not prove Tyrion was not his and it made me wonder. But like I said, there is bacically barely any theories you can guess based on the show alone, no theory could really be correct by this logic except R+L=J after season 5 and the burning of King's Landing which te show has shown visions twice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before season 5 there was bacically no hints to R+L=J either. The show does not generally have much hints at all. But I saw the show first (I red the books before season 4) and I guessed both theories based on Jon's parentage clearly being a mystery with no clues apart from Wylla who could not be the answer and Lyanna apparently had been raped by Rhaegar. With Tyrion Tywin only said that he could not prove Tyrion was not his and it made me wonder. But like I said, there is bacically barely any theories you can guess based on the show alone, no theory could really be correct by this logic except R+L=J after season 5 and the burning of King's Landing which te show has shown visions twice.

 

Maybe you are right. 

But at least we have some hints here and there about R+L in the show to indicate their relationship, but we got absolutely nothing on A+J.

Especially whoever can reveal the truth (Joanna for example) were dead and rest of them had no ability to be sure Tyrion is A+J even they saw mad King raped Joanna at one night one year before the birth of Tyrion. This is not like R+L at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And sorry I maybe a little bit off topic here since we are talking about the relationship between show and book. 

Many people also believe R and L were married. 

But there was absolutely nothing to hint this in the show. 

If it is so important that Jon had to be a true born son by marriage, then they had to give some hint on it. 

This is one reason I doubt there would be secret marriage to make Jon as legit prince or king. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And sorry I maybe a little bit off topic here since we are talking about the relationship between show and book. 

Many people also believe R and L were married. 

But there was absolutely nothing to hint this in the show. 

If it is so important that Jon had to be a true born son by marriage, then they had to give some hint on it. 

This is one reason I doubt there would be secret marriage to make Jon as legit prince or king. 

They haven't mentioned the Valonqar either but Cersie will still die.

The tv show is a super unreliable method of figuring out the books. The guys writing the episodes might not even know if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good job on putting it all together. There was certainly something going on between Aerys and Joanna. 

However, I personally hope AJT is false. We already have too many characters with questionable parentage or that are somewhat 'hidden' from other characters and/or from the reader. 

 

 

Can the quote 'you're no son of mine' mean just that Tywin was angry?

He says  something similar to Jamie when he is displeased by his refusal to take the seat of Casterly Rock.

''You are not my son." Lord Tywin turned his face away. "You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty." Jaime POV, ASOS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Attitude,
 
well, in a society like Westeros women are chattel. Lyanna belongs to her father and her brothers until she is handed over to the husband they chose for her. Rape in such society - which exists as a crime - usually isn't defined as a man forcing himself on a woman but rather as a man despoiling/deflowering the property of another man - which is why the Starks didn't approve of Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna at Harrenhal, and why Brandon apparently challenged Rhaegar to a duel after the abduction.
 
From the Starks and Robert's perspective Rhaegar may be a rapist even if Lyanna went willingly with him. Her opinion on the matter isn't really important. And Robert clearly was in camp Stark there - if the male Starks didn't approve of Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna they may have had similar motives - guarding 'Lyanna's honor' and thus by extension the honor of Houses Stark and Baratheon. Of course, Robert was also emotionally involved in that because he loved Lyanna.
 
The link you give is an outdated theory. TWoIaF shot that down, and despite the fact that Mithras still desperately clings to the possibility the Lannister siblings may have inherited Targaryen blood through the female line (a Plumm daughter being being either the ancestor of Joanna's mother Marla Prester or the ancestor of Tywin's mother, Jeyne Marbrand) there is no reason to believe any of that. TWoIaF could have mentioned or build up to that, especially since George could easily have chosen such a Plumm daughter as a paternal ancestor of the Lannisters (i.e. making Tytos' wife or Gerold's wife a Plumm) but he chose to not do that. Instead he built a case for Tyrion being Aerys' bastard by Joanna. We don't even have textual evidence that there were any female Plumms in the last couple of generations. Elaena's son by Lord Ossifer Plumm (or Aegon IV), Lord Viserys Plumm, was an only child. We know that he had multiple sons (one of whom is Brown Ben's ancestor) but no daughters are mentioned. The idea is also rather hilarious that any house of good standing in the West would take a bride from an impoverished line of unrecognized royal bastards. Ossifer clearly didn't father Viserys, and the Unworthy claimed all the Plumm wealth for himself.
 
The idea that the average reader would understand how the hell Tyrion has Targaryen blood if he becomes a dragonrider because he has Targaryen blood through the Plumms wouldn't be easy to convey. With our genealogical knowledge we can't deduce that, and even Brown Ben has no exact idea either who his ancestors were. Are we supposed to believe George intends to give us another boring genealogical study how the Plumm-Targaryens are the ancestors of Tyrion? That is not very likely - it served a purpose with Littlefinger's story about Jon Arryn's kin since the question of Robert's heir is important, but here it is not. Not to mention that Tyrion succeeding with such a drop of dragon blood when Quentyn - who would had about as much Targaryen blood - failed at the same task is quite unlikely. Quentyn was no dwarf and could actually intimidate the Viserion. Tyrion will look more or less like a walking meal to any dragon he approaches, and should have no chance of bonding with a dragon unless he smells a lot like Daenerys.

Saying that women are chattel (ie living property) in a society where women own property, hold land, can inherit, and even rule significanly undermines your authority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont consider the eye color to be proof of anything, just a subtle hint, like many of the points that support AJT.  Let me think now....are there any other families that are associated with greens and blacks....hmmmmmm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And LV, 

I realized another serious similarity between TYrion/Jon/Dany.  Obviously there are a few we have already discussed, the possible rape to get pregnant, the mother dying during child birth, the bad childhoods, the being raised by people other than your parents.  Well we have Dany joining with the dothraki, we have Jon joining with the wildlings and we have Tyrion leading the mountain clans for the best part of book 2 and 3.  I never really thought about it before because it's not happening in DwD, Tyrion is already gone from Westeros.  But as far as a main POV character joining forces with a less civilized group of people and bringing them into the story as Jon and Dany have, I think this is another great example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may have been consensual or it may have been rape.
Aerys forces himself on Rhaella in front of the King's Guard later before the Sack of King's Landing so it is not like Aerys is above rape.

A decade later, Aerys rapes his wife... At 272, he doesn't seem to have been so violent at all. The tortures and executions in 274 after Jaehaerys' death seem to be a one time thing.. for some time. Duskendale seems to mark that change in him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good job on putting it all together. There was certainly something going on between Aerys and Joanna. 

However, I personally hope AJT is false. We already have too many characters with questionable parentage or that are somewhat 'hidden' from other characters and/or from the reader. 

 

 

Can the quote 'you're no son of mine' mean just that Tywin was angry?

He says  something similar to Jamie when he is displeased by his refusal to take the seat of Casterly Rock.

''You are not my son." Lord Tywin turned his face away. "You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty." Jaime POV, ASOS

Each single clue has a potential innocent explanation. That is how GRRM wrote it to keep the readers from knowing for sure. The question is why are there so many clues. And we don't have "too many" characters with questionable parentage. We have the number that GRRM needs to make the story work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×