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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.6

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LM,

 

well, they are effectively chattel. It is not as worse as in the Old Testament - where women aren't even legal persons. But TWoIaF makes it clear that women effectively are the property of their husbands in the sense that they rule over them as the stronger sex etc., and have the right to chastise them. As a father you want a son, and you only turn to your daughters (or treat them as fellow human beings) if they are all you've got and there are no immediate male heirs.

 

As Ruling Ladies and Queens women are also not equal to men, as they are usually not considered to be fit to defend their persons and their lands themselves - instead, they are expected to rely on a strong male hand to guide and protect them.

 

That Lyanna's opinion didn't count is exemplified by the fact that apparently nobody cared for opinion since, to our knowledge, nobody cared to ask her about her view of things before threatening Prince Rhaegar.

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LM,
 
well, they are effectively chattel. It is not as worse as in the Old Testament - where women aren't even legal persons. But TWoIaF makes it clear that women effectively are the property of their husbands in the sense that they rule over them as the stronger sex etc., and have the right to chastise them. As a father you want a son, and you only turn to your daughters (or treat them as fellow human beings) if they are all you've got and there are no immediate male heirs.
 
As Ruling Ladies and Queens women are also not equal to men, as they are usually not considered to be fit to defend their persons and their lands themselves - instead, they are expected to rely on a strong male hand to guide and protect them.
 
That Lyanna's opinion didn't count is exemplified by the fact that apparently nobody cared for opinion since, to our knowledge, nobody cared to ask her about her view of things before threatening Prince Rhaegar.

No, they are not effectively chattel. Sometimes it's a good idea to say, "Oops." And it's always a bad idea to throw around legal terms if you don't really understand the legal concepts. Chattel is any personal property as opposed to real property (ie land). Certain types of chattel may be protected by laws, but they do not have any inherent rights. Women in Westeros appear to have certain rights.

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I suppose you could argue unmarried girls are chattel in the sense they are bought and sold (although that's hardly different than rw marriage up to 150 years ago). Plus it seems as if women can be forced to marry and I can't think of an example where a woman's refusal to marry was respected/worked out in the end. But the examples of Ladies Hornwood and Webber demonstrate married women are decidedly not chattel. Property can't inherit other property. Regardless, I wouldn't use the phrase chattel simply because it's such a loaded term.

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A decade later, Aerys rapes his wife... At 272, he doesn't seem to have been so violent at all. The tortures and executions in 274 after Jaehaerys' death seem to be a one time thing.. for some time. Duskendale seems to mark that change in him.

Are you really arguing that because he hadn't raped yet, he didn't have it in him?

There was the first time he set someone on fire, the firs time he had some one killed, the first time he raped. It was all in him it was just a matter of when.

 

I am not saying it was rape, but you cant say that it definitely wasn't either, especially when he goes on to rape later.

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Lady Hornwood was treated worse than chattel, so are many women in these stories.  However many men are too.  I totally understand what LV was getting at. Fire, blood and a strong sword are the only things that are respected in asoiaf, most women dont have those, therefore most women receive zero respect. Which is why we love Dany and Brienne so.

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LM,

 

well, they are effectively chattel. It is not as worse as in the Old Testament - where women aren't even legal persons. But TWoIaF makes it clear that women effectively are the property of their husbands in the sense that they rule over them as the stronger sex etc., and have the right to chastise them. As a father you want a son, and you only turn to your daughters (or treat them as fellow human beings) if they are all you've got and there are no immediate male heirs.

 

As Ruling Ladies and Queens women are also not equal to men, as they are usually not considered to be fit to defend their persons and their lands themselves - instead, they are expected to rely on a strong male hand to guide and protect them.

 

That Lyanna's opinion didn't count is exemplified by the fact that apparently nobody cared for opinion since, to our knowledge, nobody cared to ask her about her view of things before threatening Prince Rhaegar.

I've always felt the same way, Brandon Stark was ready to go to war over his sister's supposed 'abduction', and he didnt even know for sure if she was abducted, or unhappy or anything.  It was more about the insult that was done to him and his father even if the given reason was 'Lyanna'.  Which is basically the same thing as going to war over some of your cows being stolen, you don't care if the cows are happier with you or with the thief, and you really dont give a shit how the cows feel, only that they were taken from you. And that is exactly what the Master's in SB are upset about, they feel the slaves are their property, and it's not ok to try and take them away.

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There is something wrong with that eye besides it's color, or Euron wouldn't be wearing an eye-patch. Tyrion isn't physically inconvenienced by his black eye, but Euron clearly is, and that fits trauma more than simply heterochromy. Maybe some kind of head trauma that caused  extreme relaxation of the pupil, or something along these lines. There are hints that The Three-Eyed Raven contacted him at some point, which would fit a life-threatening injury narrative too. Or it could be magical in some way (though I doubt it).

In any case, being one-eyed is a serious enough handicap for a warrior that I don't see Euron deciding to give up vision on one eye lightly. And he is somebody who relishes being unsettling, so IMHO if he could leave the eye uncovered he would. 

 

 

"Black eye shining with malice" does not imply deformity or whatsoever. All the Greyjoys think about Euron's eye patch but none of them mention any deformity.

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We are talking noble women here, which do have a little bit more freedom if they are considered important enough. Say, the eldest daughter of lord or king without a son should enjoy much more freedom than the youngest daughter of a king who happens to have nine children. We see how Jaehaerys I treats his daughters - Alyssa, Daella, and Viserra are married or betrothed to great princes and lords, but Maegelle and Saera are treated like chattel and given to the Faith (which then leads to embarrassment when it turns out that the Princess Saera has no intention to become a septa).

 

But among the smallfolk even married women are treated worse. Prior to the Rule of Seven husbands were legally allowed to beat their wives to death, and even thereafter this type of thing happened (e.g. Merry Meg, who was beaten to death by her blacksmith after Prince Viserys had her returned to him).

 

Legally, it seems that the lands and titles remain with the woman if she inherits, but her husband becomes her lord and protector upon the wedding day, legally giving him the upper hand in their marriage, even if he is of lesser blood and has no title of his own. Sure, that does not always happen, and it is quite clear that a woman like Rhaenyra could hold her own against both Laenor and Daemon, but still the woman cannot war or fight, and is thus depended on male protection. But even she, the chosen heiress of her father and a dragonrider had to fear to fall from grace because she had extramarital affairs (Daemon, possibly Criston Cole) - something a man has never to fear.

 

Forced marriages are also quite common, happening not only with the permission of the highest authorities (Sansa-Tyrion, Ramsay-'Arya', Lady Hornwood-Ramsay) but are also perfectly legitimate. Rich heiresses ruling in their own right still live with the fear that they are married against their will in their own castle as is hinted at by Lady Webber in TSS.

 

Noble widows enjoy an amount of liberty if her male kin permits her that. If she has sons, power goes to them, though. A childless widow apparently can wield some power like Lady Dustin, but that is the exception, not the rule.

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And that is exactly what the Master's in SB are upset about, they feel the slaves are their property, and it's not ok to try and take them away.


This is why it's a term I'd steer clear from. Comparing the lives of the average highborn lady with the average Ghiscari slave could be quite offensive to the latter. Just as comparing the lives of women and slaves in, say, 18th century America is a powder keg.

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"Black eye shining with malice" does not imply deformity or whatsoever. All the Greyjoys think about Euron's eye patch but none of them mention any deformity.

Euron is an Ironborn through and through. No one disputes that, what we are talking about is how Tyrion is set apart from the rest of the Lannisters. He is the only dwarf in the family, the only one with mis-matched eyes, the only one without golden hair, the only one obsessed with dragons, etc etc. That is the point. As I have said before the eyes prove nothing, just a very visible and in your face hint that he does not belong with those who raised him (he mentions that exact fact maybe 100 times in his POV's).

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Well, we can say that females were always treated worse than they male counterparts in similar positions in history and society. Be they slaves or ladies, a man was always a man and thus better than a woman. Queen Victoria had to deal with Prince Albert's stupid beliefs that he could try 'to (co-)rule' the Empire at her side (something a 'King Victor' in her stead wouldn't have to deal with from a Queen Consort who was properly trained how a good woman should be behave) and the average female slave in the southern states in the 19th century would have to deal with a lot more sexual assaults by her masters than a man in her position.

 

Actually buying and selling human beings is worse than doing it symbolically via an arranged marriage, but not much.

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Well, we can always say that female were always treated worse than they male counterparts in similar positions in history and society.


Agreed.

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Are you really arguing that because he hadn't raped yet, he didn't have it in him?
There was the first time he set someone on fire, the firs time he had some one killed, the first time he raped. It was all in him it was just a matter of when.
 
I am not saying it was rape, but you cant say that it definitely wasn't either, especially when he goes on to rape later.

No, I'm arguing that the statement of it having been his 'general state of mind' is a faulty statement.

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Euron is an Ironborn through and through. No one disputes that, what we are talking about is how Tyrion is set apart from the rest of the Lannisters. He is the only dwarf in the family, the only one with mis-matched eyes, the only one without golden hair, the only one obsessed with dragons, etc etc. That is the point. As I have said before the eyes prove nothing, just a very visible and in your face hint that he does not belong with those who raised him (he mentions that exact fact maybe 100 times in his POV's).

 

So, you believe Hodor is Rickon's father because his wolf is black with green eyes unlike the other ones?

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Seems, at this time, subsequently. With these words in your first sentences, you can be ‘reasonably sure’ that Daenerys is a child of rape. That is odd. However, I have to agree that it seems reasonably that she is, even though all that stuff doesn’t support it. The entire woiaf book was written from a maesters’ perspective so it is not objective (but then again, a lot more info we share here is not, because it is from POVs).

 

That Dany was conceived by rape comes from Feast (Jaime II), or at least as close to confirmation we can get without a direct POV flashback from Aerys or Rhaella.

 

 

 

Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign.  They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours.  But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night.  The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood guard outside her bedchamber whist the king took his pleasure.  “You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door.  “You’re hurting me.”

 

“We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say.  

 

“We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for dragonstone.  The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone.  They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts.  A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

 

They never slept together unless Aerys had burned someone, and then it was always against her will.  The memory of Rhaella's rape and her departure could be unconnected, but considering that it was the very next time Jaime saw her, it's almost certain that the bruises and bites in the second memory are connected to the rape in the first memory.  Since it was the last time she was in King's Landing, she had to be pregnant at that point.  In other words, GRRM very deliberately gave us a view of Dany's conception to show us it's nature.

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So, you believe Hodor is Rickon's father because his wolf is black with green eyes unlike the other ones?

??? That makes zero sense and I dont know what the comparison even is there. Is there anything in the novels that hints that Catelyn had an affair with Hodor?

 

See these types of counterarguments are so dumb.  We are talking about Tyrion whose mother was known to have an affair with Aerys.  So finding hints for him being a Targaryen makes sense with the story and the novels (since Joanna had a known affair with Aerys, and Tywin doubts his paternity).  Throwing in a random off-the-wall argument with zero textual support is pointless.

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I suppose you could argue unmarried girls are chattel in the sense they are bought and sold (although that's hardly different than rw marriage up to 150 years ago). Plus it seems as if women can be forced to marry and I can't think of an example where a woman's refusal to marry was respected/worked out in the end. But the examples of Ladies Hornwood and Webber demonstrate married women are decidedly not chattel. Property can't inherit other property. Regardless, I wouldn't use the phrase chattel simply because it's such a loaded term.

A boy can be forced into a marriage too.

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Lady Hornwood was treated worse than chattel, so are many women in these stories.  However many men are too.  I totally understand what LV was getting at. Fire, blood and a strong sword are the only things that are respected in asoiaf, ! most women dont have those, therefore most women receive zero respect. Which is why we love Dany and Brienne so.

That's not true.

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That's not true.

Renly thinks so and I agree with him.

"Tell me, what right did my brother have to the iron throne?" HE did not wait for an answer.  "Oh there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer."

 

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