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A+J=T v.6


UnmaskedLurker

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We just see it differently.  I understand you are trying to separate 'casually dreaming of a dragon' and having a 'prophetic dragon dream'.  You are saying they are different, one = Targaryen and the other = nothing.    And I get that.  However in these 5 novels the only people who dream of dragons in any way (prophetic or not) have Targaryen blood.  And Tyrion brings it up more than anyone else, even Dany. GRRM is trying to tell us something here, do you really disagree with that?  I dont see the need to break down each dream, the only thing that matters is that Tyrion is having them, and has had them his entire life. Dany has them as does Shireen and Teora (please gods tell us the Toland family tree soon!!).  So there is significance to it, whether they are prophetic or not.

 

 

Now I read the entire chapter when Jon is talking to Ygritte.  First he is telling her about The Old King Jaehaerys and his wife Alysanne and when they came to Winterfell brought 6 of their dragons and Alysanne flew Syrax up to visit the Wall.  He tells the story, then switched gear and out of nowhere says; 

“I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

 

So he is talking about Targaryen royalty visiting the wall, then goes straight into; 'I had another friend who dreamed of dragons'.  Which would certainly confirm that Tyrion was not just day-dreaming or wishful thinking or whatever else many posters use to casually cast away Tyrion's dragon dreams. They are real, he has them and Jon Snow is talking about them while discussing other Targaryen royalty.

 

If, like you say, Jon is not comparing himself to Tyrion, that he is not claiming that he also had the dreams, then the only other people he could be talking about are Alysanne and Jaehaerys (both BOTD).  So right there is a very strong bit of proof towards AJT.  Jon is saying, this dwarf I knew also dreamed of dragons just like Alysanne did (since she is a Targaryen and everyone knows that only Targs have dreams about dragons.)

Concerning the statement from Jon.

 

"I had another friend who dreamed of dragons."

 

If Jon were comparing himself to Tyrion here, on the subject of them both dreaming of dragons, this sentence would only make sence if he had mentioned he himself dreamt of dragons. Jon mentions no such thing. Instead, he discusses Jaehaerys and Alysanne, but no dreams of them. 

And Jon states that he had "another" friend... Don't you use such wording after either talking about a first friend, or while talking to a friend? Jaehaerys and Alysanne are not Jon's friends, nor are the Thenns. Is the friend he means Ygritte, making Tyrion the "other" friend?

 

Jon isn't saying here "this guy I knew also dreams of dragons". Jon is saying "this guy I knew dreams of dragons". And this guy is a friend of Jon, just as Ygritte is.. I don't know how else the "another friend" can make sense, grammatically. 

 

Why would he say "another friend" if he had Alysanne in mind as a connection? Alysanne is not his friend, nor does he discuss her dreaming of dragons.

 

If this is the language barrier, please tell me.

 

 

Sorry, that was a language barrier thing.  I didnt literally mean Tywin 'likes it'.  I meant that after so many years of taking shit from Aerys and doing nothing it would appear Tywin likes it, since he does nothing to stop it.  It's sort of a joke I guess, I know he does not actually like it, but if people let something happen so much in their lives what other conclusion can be drawn?  He could have resigned at any point if he hated Aerys, or hated the way Aerys treated him, but he never did.

 

 

I think our point holds strong that since Tywin did not care or lift a finger when Ser Illyn's tongue was torn out, he would also not care about a random comment about his wife's breasts.  But I do believe that sex with the king was enough to make Tywin try and resign, only that though.

That's the thing though. Ilyn is not comparable to Joanna. Tywin did not love Ilyn deeply, as far as we know. We do know he loved Joanna deeply. Why would Tywin care the same amount about two people being insulted, if he loves one dearly, whereas has only employed the other?

 

 

I'd very much like your opinion on the last part of my prior post.

 

 

On topic of Tyrion's dreams, though, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that Tyrion has stated

 

"[...] I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

 

If Tyrion had dragon dreams, why does he not dream about them anymore? The argument "“Wine helps me sleep,” Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said." has been given before, but to that, I ask, if he drinks so much as to not dream about the type of dreams that plagued Daeron so much, why does he state the following?

 

If I drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.

 

Sounds to me, that here, Tyrion says he wants to drink a lot in the hopes of dreaming of dragons..  :dunno:

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed. IMHO, there is a bit of conflation of being able to have  prophetic dreams that, while rare,  doesn't seem to be tied to one specific ancestry - we have seen seers of the First Men, Targaryen, Free Cities (which may or may not have ultimately come from their Valyrian ancestry), the moonsingers of Jogos N'ai, etc.

These people may see dragons in their prophetic dreams, if they (or Targaryens) prominently  figure in the future that they can glimpse. They aren't particularly attracted by those dragons that they see either. I don't hold with the notion that only Targ seers envision other Targs as their heraldic animal when having a prophetic dream, since Moqorro saw Euron as a dark kracken in his fires, as well as multiple "dragons",some of whom have to be people, hence "true and false",  Melisandre saw Bran and Jon as wolves, etc. I count both Shireen and Theora Toland in this group.  

 

And then there are Targaryens, who, while generally not of prophetic bend, vividly dream of and long for dragons specifically. I.e. Dany,  of course and maester Aemon:

 

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one."

 

From everything we know so far,Tyrion seems to belong to that second group. And Shireen and Theora don't.

Shireen has Targaryen blood, why wouldn't she count in the group of Targaryen dragon dreams?

 

And how does Tyrion fit in that group? His dreams haven't been prophetic so far, as far as I can recall.

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Indeed. IMHO, there is a bit of conflation of being able to have  prophetic dreams that, while rare,  doesn't seem to be tied to one specific ancestry - we have seen seers of the First Men, Targaryen, Free Cities (which may or may not have ultimately come from their Valyrian ancestry), the moonsingers of Jogos N'ai, etc.

These people may see dragons in their prophetic dreams, if they (or Targaryens) prominently  figure in the future that they can glimpse. They aren't particularly attracted by those dragons that they see either. I don't hold with the notion that only Targ seers envision other Targs as their heraldic animal when having a prophetic dream, since Moqorro saw Euron as a dark kracken in his fires, as well as multiple "dragons",some of whom have to be people, hence "true and false",  Melisandre saw Bran and Jon as wolves, etc. I count both Shireen and Theora Toland in this group.  

 

And then there are Targaryens, who, while generally not of prophetic bend, vividly dream of and long for dragons specifically. I.e. Dany,  of course and maester Aemon:

 

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one."

 

From everything we know so far,Tyrion seems to belong to that second group. And Shireen and Theora don't.

 

:bs:

 

What makes you think that Aemon's dream was not a prophetic one? It may very well point to the dragon (Jon) in front of him where Aemon was close enough to feel his "hot breath" while the dragon inside Jon cast its shadow on the Snow (identity of him). Under the bleeding star, it may be taken as another hint for Jon being TPTWP.

 

You are completely twisting the facts to fit your purpose.

 

Shireen and Theora definitely have prophetic dreams.

 

Tyrion's dreams are not Targaryen dreams.

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Except that we now know from WoIAF  that young Aerys had been _nothing_ like Joff, so how is it any kind of clue? And anyway, none of J&C's incestuous kids have any physical Targ features, which would make this very implausible.

And also there is the fact that Aerys nearly flipped out with jealousy after he heard about the twins birth, so clearly _he_ didn't consider their paternity to be in any doubt.

 

If you apply this same type of counter argument to the OP of this thread, you will see that all the so-called clues will drop like flies. 

 

ETA: And young Dany is nothing like Aerys. What do you say to that? Jon has no Targ features. What do you say to that? The descendants of the first Daenerys (Martells) have no Targ features. What do you say to that?

 

Your last argument does not make any sense either. Aerys claimed that he married the wrong woman perhaps knowing that Joanna gave him a pair of golden twins.

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Another BS.

 

Cersei had made shameless use of their cousin, both in and out of bed; a little secret she no doubt hoped Lancel would carry to his grave now that Father was here and she no longer had need of him. Would she go so far as to murder him, though? To look at her today, you would never suspect Cersei was capable of such ruthlessness. She was all charm, flirting with Lord Tyrell as they spoke of Joffrey’s wedding feast, complimenting Lord Redwyne on the valor of his twins, softening gruff Lord Rowan with jests and smiles, making pious noises at the High Septon.

I often say it: Cersei is Joanna's daughter... What if this description was valid for Joanna as well? A+J = T or A+J=C+J do not necessarily need a rape then. And Lancel was more and less the same age as Rhaegar when he met Joanna...

 

 

 

Double standard.

 

AJ=CJ theory has the same kind of evidences/argumentation with AJT and it is much more compelling than AJT.

 

Come on Mithras, even you has to admit that this is not true anymore after aWoiaF.

 

 

“Not Robert the Second,” Tyrion said. “Aerys the Third.”

 

For example, this can be taken as a much stronger clue in favor of A+J=C+J than anything proposed in the OP for AJT.

 

Indeed, this sentence has a disturbing AJ=CJ flavour and it did make me wonder. But I don't think it is a stronger clue than the addition of the clues in the OP. Today I see it as a direct clue to the incestuous origin of Joffrey, just like Aerys.

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Mithras,

 

your arguments are really bad when you are pissed.

 

Don't you predict that Victarion will kill Hizdahr and Barristan, and effectively take over Meereen? Why would he tolerate the presence of that dwarf, or allow him to interfere with his politics? How do you think Tyrion can restore 'order' in Meereen when Victarion rules? Why would anyone allow Tyrion to claim a dragon? Why would Tyrion think he can mount a dragon? Why would anyone in Meereen accept the advice of a dwarf who some might remember was supposed to be ripped to pieces by lions in the Daznak's Pit? Why would anyone accept his advice rather than demanding that he continue his true trade - that is, riding a pig?

 

If Tyrion is Dany's half-brother, then Barristan most likely won't put him to death for patricide and regicide without Dany's permission, and while he did some pretty heavy crimes you tend to pardon your brother much more often than just some dude.

 

Jon's and Tyrion's true heritage are mirror images. They are variations of the same theme, and were, if they are true, most likely designed as such. Jon and Tyrion were made friends very deliberately back in AGoT, and this is going to pay off if they are actually uncle and nephew more than if they are just meeting each other again at one point.

 

Your Cersei stuff isn't 'proof' or relevant to this discussion, too. It shows that Cersei can play the role of a nice person and charm people. But that doesn't know she is really is nice, right? Aerys II actually regretted executing all those midwives, his mistress, and their family when he decided completely on his own to make a walk of penance, humble himself before the High Septon, and ask the gods for forgiveness. We'll never see something like that from Cersei, right?

 

There are many characters in this series developing serious mental issues but that doesn't mean they are descended from Aerys (like Alannys Harlaw Greyjoy). Liking to watch the symbol of the men you feel have dominated you all your life burn doesn't mean you are showing Targaryen madness. Cersei becomes paranoid for some very good and objective reasons, yet Aerys II's paranoia was merely part of his actual mental affliction that manifested in various ways. Cersei doesn't have mad fits of the sort Aerys had Harrenhal - she isn't laughing, weeping, raging, etc. within in minutes. She just thinks all are out to get her. And she isn't even wrong.

 

This 'Aerys the Third' is no clue to anything in regards to Jaime and Cersei. It is Tyrion comparing Joffrey to Aerys without actually having any knowledge. I could have made that comparison, too, but that wouldn't make it a clue.

 

Victarion and Tyrion will be a good couple. Tyrion will come with Second Sons to Victarion. He will need every possible ally. Moqorro will vouch for Tyrion.

 

You ask “Why would anyone in Meereen accept the advice of a dwarf who some might remember was supposed to be ripped to pieces by lions in the Daznak's Pit?”

 

What a stupid question. What do you mean by anyone FFS? If Victarion takes the leadership of Meereen, he becomes the only one that matters. And he can damn take Tyrion as his chief advisor.

 

You speculation about Jon/Tyrion relationship is horseshit. They have nothing in common. Their stories are completely different.

 

Your argument about Cersei is completely meaningless and missing the point. Just like Aerys, Cersei had her time of being nice and charming. But in the end, Cersei is spiraling downward into madness like Aerys did.

 

And it is fucking hilarious you saying that not every crazy person is a descendant of Aerys. Because that saves me from dumping the so-called clues in the OP into garbage where they belong. Because none of them necessarily means that Tyrion is a descendant of Aerys.

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Come on Mithras, even you has to admit that this is not true anymore after aWoiaF.

 

"Seldom" does not mean "never". 

 

It is in the realm of possibility that Joanna visited the court at the time of the conception of the twins. George didnot shut that idea down. He didnot say that Joanna "never" came to the court until the anniversary tourney.

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Indeed, this sentence has a disturbing AJ=CJ flavour and it did make me wonder. But I don't think it is a stronger clue than the addition of the clues in the OP. Today I see it as a direct clue to the incestuous origin of Joffrey, just like Aerys.

 

At the time of this sentence (in ASoS), I don't think we needed any clues for the incestuous origins of Joffrey. We know that he was a bastard from AGoT without and shred of doubt.

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For crying it out loud, which character (and a POV character!) is more associated with dragons than Tyrion beside Daenarys? Even the TV show keeps associating Tyrion with dragons. Yes, Shireen dreams of dragons, but we know that she has Targaryen blood. James does not. Ned does not. Cersei does not. Arya does not. Jon does (see post a few pages back or a dream when he remembers shadows in the sky IIRC). Aemon does. A likely Robert's seed in the Riverlands does. Daemon does. Egg's drunken brother what's his name does. Bran does not (even if he flies in his dreams).

Tyrion has Targaryen blood. 2 drops at least. Get on with it. And accept it when he rides Viserion in the WoW.

 

EDIT: spelling / grammar

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At the time of this sentence (in ASoS), I don't think we needed any clues for the incestuous origins of Joffrey. We know that he was a bastard from AGoT without and shred of doubt.

Not a clue for us - a clue for Tyrion and the small council...

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Concerning the statement from Jon.

 

"I had another friend who dreamed of dragons."

 

If Jon were comparing himself to Tyrion here, on the subject of them both dreaming of dragons, this sentence would only make sence if he had mentioned he himself dreamt of dragons. Jon mentions no such thing. Instead, he discusses Jaehaerys and Alysanne, but no dreams of them. 

And Jon states that he had "another" friend... Don't you use such wording after either talking about a first friend, or while talking to a friend? Jaehaerys and Alysanne are not Jon's friends, nor are the Thenns. Is the friend he means Ygritte, making Tyrion the "other" friend?

 

Jon isn't saying here "this guy I knew also dreams of dragons". Jon is saying "this guy I knew dreams of dragons". And this guy is a friend of Jon, just as Ygritte is.. I don't know how else the "another friend" can make sense, grammatically. 

 

Why would he say "another friend" if he had Alysanne in mind as a connection? Alysanne is not his friend, nor does he discuss her dreaming of dragons.

 

If this is the language barrier, please tell me.

 

 

That's the thing though. Ilyn is not comparable to Joanna. Tywin did not love Ilyn deeply, as far as we know. We do know he loved Joanna deeply. Why would Tywin care the same amount about two people being insulted, if he loves one dearly, whereas has only employed the other?

 

 

I'd very much like your opinion on the last part of my prior post.

 
 

 

 

 

Shireen has Targaryen blood, why wouldn't she count in the group of Targaryen dragon dreams?

 

And how does Tyrion fit in that group? His dreams haven't been prophetic so far, as far as I can recall.

I think Shireen dreaming about a dragon was to show that she has BOTD from her great-grandmother.  Same reason Tyrion has the dreams.

 

 

 

So I looked again at the quote from Jon to Ygritte.  I think we both read it wrong.  When he says "I had another friend who dreams of dragons."  He is just saying he knows a guy who dreams of dragons, he was not comparing Tyrion to anyone.  So that makes more sense, since no one else was talking about dreaming of dragons.

 

What prompted him to say that was the discussion they were having about Alysanne's and Jaerhaerys's dragons.  So again we have TYrion being brought up in the same discussion as Targ royalty, which actually happens a number of times throughout the novels.  Tywin flat out compares him to Aerys a few times, and here again we have a connection between Tyrion and the known BOTD Targaryens.

 

Tyrion certainly does dream of dragons, there is no question about that.  My main question is, Why would GRRM put this in the story? No one has really answered what the purpose of these dreams are in a literary sense, in the sense of the story, what is the purpose?....

 

DO you think it is to show that non-Targs whose mothers had affairs with Targ kings can randomly have dreams of dragons? if so, why are there no other examples of this?

 

Or do you think it is to show that just anyone can dream of dragons, Targaryen or not?  If so, why are there no other examples of this? For instance we see many of Catelyn's dreams, Cersei as well, Bran too and even Brienne, yet none of them ever had any dragons in their dreams.  I ask again, what is the point of giving these solely to Tyrion over and over?

 TO start off GOT with Dany having dragon dreams in 2 or 3 chapters in a row, which establishes that Targaryens in fact do do this.  She is the only one right? so she is the one having these dreams, but then little by little we learn that this other guy has been dreaming about the same thing throughout his entire life.  It would be insanely easy for GRRM to give any other POV these types of dreams, but he does not, so what is the reasoning from and authorial standpoint?

 

 

Also what is GRRM's purpose for making it known, throughout the novels and short stories all the way back to Daenys the Dreamer, that Targaryens dream of drgaons

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I think Shireen dreaming about a dragon was to show that she has BOTD from her great-grandmother.  Same reason Tyrion has the dreams.

 

 

 

So I looked again at the quote from Jon to Ygritte.  I think we both read it wrong.  When he says "I had another friend who dreams of dragons."  He is just saying he knows a guy who dreams of dragons, he was not comparing Tyrion to anyone.  So that makes more sense, since no one else was talking about dreaming of dragons.

 

What prompted him to say that was the discussion they were having about Alysanne's and Jaerhaerys's dragons.  So again we have TYrion being brought up in the same discussion as Targ royalty, which actually happens a number of times throughout the novels.  Tywin flat out compares him to Aerys a few times, and here again we have a connection between Tyrion and the known BOTD Targaryens.

 

Tyrion certainly does dream of dragons, there is no question about that.  My main question is, Why would GRRM put this in the story? No one has really answered what the purpose of these dreams are....

 

DO you think it is to show that non-Targs whose mothers had affairs with Targ kings can randomly have dreams of dragons? if so, why are there no other examples of this?

 

Or do you think it is to show that just anyone can dream of dragons, Targaryen or not?  If so, why are there no other examples of this? For instance we see many of Catelyn's dreams, Cersei as well, Bran too and even Brienne, yet none of them ever had any dragons in their dreams.  I ask again, what is the point of giving these solely to Tyrion over and over?

 

 

 

Also what is GRRM's purpose for making it known, throughout the novels and short stories all the way back to Daenys the Dreamer, that Targaryens dream of drgaons

Aerys also compared Joffrey to Aerys at times. So I personally don't find him comparing Tyrion to Aerys such a strong argument.

 

Like I said, there's dreaming about dragons and dreaming about dragons. I can't recall any dream of Tyrion's having been of the Targaryen dragon dreams type. Targaryens don't simply dream about dragons, they dream of "things to come" (several of them, not all).

 

As to why Tyrion dreams about them.. If it isn't prophetic in the Targaryen dragon dreams kind of way, it is to feed his interest, which leads to him gathering knowledge, which leads to him having knowledge that could be very, very useful to him in his current situation, and in the situations that without a doubt are about to come.

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"Seldom" does not mean "never". 

 

It is in the realm of possibility that Joanna visited the court at the time of the conception of the twins. George didnot shut that idea down. He didnot say that Joanna "never" came to the court until the anniversary tourney.

I did not mean "the theory is not true". I meant the proposal "AJ=CJ theory has the same kind of evidences/argumentation with AJT and it is much more compelling than AJT" is not true anymore.

But for me "the realm of possibility" does not really work in literature.

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Tyrion has Targaryen blood. 2 drops at least. Get on with it. And accept it when he rides Viserion in the WoW.

 

Even if Tyrion rides a dragon and even if George proves conclusively that he has Targaryen blood (from Plumm, Aerys, or even Rhaegar) I will still not believe that Targaryen blood is needed to ride a dragon.

 

For that, I will require conclusive proofs, not circular logic.

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Aerys also compared Joffrey to Aerys at times. So I personally don't find him comparing Tyrion to Aerys such a strong argument.

 

Like I said, there's dreaming about dragons and dreaming about dragons. I can't recall any dream of Tyrion's having been of the Targaryen dragon dreams type. Targaryens don't simply dream about dragons, they dream of "things to come" (several of them, not all).

 

As to why Tyrion dreams about them.. If it isn't prophetic in the Targaryen dragon dreams kind of way, it is to feed his interest, which leads to him gathering knowledge, which leads to him having knowledge that could be very, very useful to him in his current situation, and in the situations that without a doubt are about to come.

ok I see, so you think that he only has those dreams because he is interested in dragons.  fair enough.

 

But what is the literary purpose of establishing that Dragons (and dreams about them) are a Targrayen thing then having Tyrion dream of them all the time?

 

 

Well If someone were to have been talking to Joffrey in book 1 or 2 and been like; "Man you really remind me of Jaime"  That would be a hint towards his true parentage right?  which makes sense since we already knew that Cersei and Jaime were having an affair behind Robert's back correct?

 

This would be the exact same situation.  no one suspects that Joffrey is the son of Aerys, so a comparison between them means nothing.

But Tywin doubts TYrions paternity, so comparing Tyrion to Aerys does have meaning since Tywin clearly suspects he could be Tyrion's father.

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ok I see, so you think that he only has those dreams because he is interested in dragons.  fair enough.

 

But what is the literary purpose of establishing that Dragons (and dreams about them) are a Targrayen thing then having Tyrion dream of them all the time?

 

 

Well If someone were to have been talking to Joffrey in book 1 or 2 and been like; "Man you really remind me of Jaime"  That would be a hint towards his true parentage right?  which makes sense since we already knew that Cersei and Jaime were having an affair behind Robert's back correct?

 

This would be the exact same situation.  no one suspects that Joffrey is the son of Aerys, so a comparison between them means nothing.

But Tywin doubts TYrions paternity, so comparing Tyrion to Aerys does have meaning since Tywin clearly suspects he could be Tyrion's father.

This is what I don't get. Out of nowhere, Tywin, on his own, compares Joffrey to Aerys, and I'm told it means nothing. Yet, when he does the same with Tyrion, it has to mean something..? Why?

 

As to the purpose of having dreams about dragons.. Like I said, Targaryens don't simply dream about dragons. They dream of "things to come", to quote Bloodraven. That's a difference.

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Not a clue for us - a clue for Tyrion and the small council...

Dude!!!

Check out this little tidbit I just stumbled across while reading on my phone instead of working :)

 

Tyrion CoK

Tyrion and Varys

(well first TYrion says this, just another link to dragons)

"I believe in steel swords, gold coins, and men's wits," said Tyrion.  "And I believe there once were dragons.  I've seen their skulls after all."

"Let us hope that is the worst thing you ever see, my lord."

"On that we agree."  Tyrion smiled.  "And for Ser Courtnay's death, well, we know Stannis hired sellsails from the Free Cities.  Perhaps he bought himslef a skilled assassin as well."

"A very skilled assassin."

"There are such.  I used to dream that one day I'd be rich enough to send a Faceless Man after my sweet sister."

 

 

 

^^^ LOLLLLzzzzz, Oh Tyrion, could you stop having prophetic dreams please?  Could you stop making my job so easy on this thread.

Never noticed it before, but IIRC Arya is becoming a Faceless Man and has sworn to kill Cersei every night for what 2.5 straight years now? cracks me up :)

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