Do you think there will be a second Long Night? What will be the trigger?

[LmL]

George has confirmed (at the end of this SSM) that the erratic nature of the seasons is not scientific. I think the Long Night is intrinsically connected to winter, so the Long Night wouldn't have a scientifically accurate rationale either. I could be wrong, of course, but it makes sense to me.

Again, I think the Doom of Valyria is a template for the interaction of nature and magic. Nature is a source of magic - the Valyrians tapped and controlled the 14 flames to fuel their magic. "All Valyrian magic is rooted in blood or fire," as Marwyn tells us. So here we have a magic which is indisputably tied to a nature force - fire.

When the Doom happened, it was a volcanic eruption, yes, but enhanced by and caused by magic, with magical consequences. A thousand years from now, someone sorting through legends that have cropped up around the Doom would be able to infer that it was some kind of volcanic eruption, even if they were 10 different stories about the cause. They would be wrong to ascribe a purely scientific explanation for the Doom, surely, but neither is the Doom an irrational act, decoupled from nature. No, instead what we have is a magically enhanced version of a natural disaster.

And this is exactly how we should think about the Long Night and the Hammer of the Waters and all the rest of the legends about natural disaster sounding stuff. There's way too much crap in the story about horns that wake giants in the earth to just dismiss that as empty talk - somehow, magic can trigger natural disasters (which are of course magical-natural disasters). Similarly, the Long Night explanation should not be totally irrational - it should be a magically enhanced version of a natural disaster (or series of disasters) which we can understand... which is how I would describe my theory. :)

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

One, axial tilt is not hinted at, either directly or indirectly in the text.

um... sorry to burst your bubble, but somewhere (in AGOT?) someone remarks that the days were getting shorter and that was a sign autumn was coming. Shorter days=axial tilt.

[Tucu]

Where is the heart of fire? Valyria?

My guess? Beyond Asshai and Tyrion might be the POV heading that way.

[Tucu]

um... sorry to burst your bubble, but somewhere (in AGOT?) someone remarks that the days were getting shorter and that was a sign autumn was coming. Shorter days=axial tilt.

I should add that the destruction of a second moon could make the axial tilt woobly.

[LmL]

um... sorry to burst your bubble, but somewhere (in AGOT?) someone remarks that the days were getting shorter and that was a sign autumn was coming. Shorter days=axial tilt.

I mean that axial tilt as a potential cause of the Long Night, not that Planetos has no axial tilt.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I am very indecisive about my opinion on these issues.  We have so much conflicting information and so many holes, its impossible to know with any degree of certainty.

 

I do think we will learn the origin of the Others, at least sort of, we may learn that the WW's were always there, at least as long as tcotf can remember, or we may learn they came out of the LN, or that tcotf themselves created them, or a faction of tcotf created them.  I do not think the babies become WW's, I think they are sacrifices for the power to raise the dead, and that the WW's skinchange them when they are brought back catatonic like Drago was.

[LmL]

My guess? Beyond Asshai and Tyrion might be the POV heading that way.

I definitely think it WAS whatever the Shadow by Asshai used to be. The Heart of Summer? It should be pure fire magic, not all shadowy and dark. That's my thinking at least. Something happened to corrupt it into a heart of darkness (which it is referred to as in the books)

[Tucu]

I definitely think it WAS whatever the Shadow by Asshai used to be. The Heart of Summer? It should be pure fire magic, not all shadowy and dark. That's my thinking at least. Something happened to corrupt it into a heart of darkness (which it is referred to as in the books)

Bran sees that the Heart of Winter is in the Lands of Always Winter. R'hllor is described as the Heart of Fire.

The term heart of darkness is only used once in the books: when Dany is looking for her dragons in the pit.

[StarkofWinterfell]

I should add that the destruction of a second moon could make the axial tilt woobly.

um... sorry to burst your bubble, but somewhere (in AGOT?) someone remarks that the days were getting shorter and that was a sign autumn was coming. Shorter days=axial tilt.

 

 

That's very good insight and I hadn't thought of that. There can be axial tilt and destruction of the moon at the same time. Axial tilt supports LmL's theory and contributes to the Long Night or long and dark winters.

[StarkofWinterfell]

I think we're on to something here!

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

I definitely think it WAS whatever the Shadow by Asshai used to be. The Heart of Summer? It should be pure fire magic, not all shadowy and dark. That's my thinking at least. Something happened to corrupt it into a heart of darkness (which it is referred to as in the books)

That's why I was so opposed to the idea, that it was the heart of fire at first. IIRC Martin has stated that we won't be going there. Do you take his word in account or do you think he might be trying to lead us false?

I like the idea of the shadowlands because they're obviously the place where everything went downhill. A second LN could restore this place to its usual condition

[SevasTra82]

I don't see how we would ever see the Shadowlands with only two books left.  The land is literally on the other side of the world, so unless he plans on creating a new POV character over there, I don't see how it's possible that he would show us Ashai/Shadowlands.

 

The closest we'll get will be through Quaithe and a Glass Candle, IMO.  (Assuming that is where Quaithe currently resides).

[LmL]

Marwyn is heading to Daenerys, and I'd be shocked if he didn't bring a glass candle with him. He's been using his candle to monitor events at the Wall and elsewhere, and it's implied his knowledge of events at the Wall at least is pretty complete. I fully expect Dany to be using that glass candle in the next book... I think we will see Asshai. But only in a vision or perhaps a Mel flashback.... Something suitably hazy so that Martin doesn't have to peel off the veneer of mystery about it.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

I think we're on to something here!

That's why I enjoy LML's threads.

[Tucu]

That's why I was so opposed to the idea, that it was the heart of fire at first. IIRC Martin has stated that we won't be going there. Do you take his word in account or do you think he might be trying to lead us false?

I like the idea of the shadowlands because they're obviously the place where everything went downhill. A second LN could restore this place to its usual condition

Didn't GRRM said that we will not be seeing Asshai in the "next book"?. Wasn't this before the publication AFFC or ADWD?

I don't see how we would ever see the Shadowlands with only two books left.  The land is literally on the other side of the world, so unless he plans on creating a new POV character over there, I don't see how it's possible that he would show us Ashai/Shadowlands.

 

The closest we'll get will be through Quaithe and a Glass Candle, IMO.  (Assuming that is where Quaithe currently resides).

I like to think that Tyrion's travel has more meaning that just going to meet Dany

[LmL]

That's why I enjoy LML's threads.

Well thank you Ser Chainbreaker.

I'm going to actual work for a bit so carry on everyone... Remember that as much as I like discussing my theory, this is a general question to everyone concerning whether or not we will see a new Long Night. Cheers.

[Taenqyrhae]

These theories are impressive in the same way that Velikovsky's astronomical explanations for mythology were.  I think they also have about the same amount of relevance on the reality of the book series. as Velikovsky's ideas did on reality.

Interesting thing about Velikovsky - when he published his theories, historians and archaeologists would say "His knowledge of ancient history is weak and his interpretations of old texts are inaccurate, but the astronomy aspects were really fascinating!" and astronomers would say "His astronomy is all nonsense, but his theories about mythology and ancient history were really fascinating!"

 

I think the Long Night had to have been exaggerated.  No sun for a generation, or even just a few years, would wipe out almost all multicellular life, not just humans.  It may not have even happened, or been a very loose interpretation of an earlier myth.

[LmL]

These theories are impressive in the same way that Velikovsky's astronomical explanations for mythology were.  I think they also have about the same amount of relevance on the reality of the book series. as Velikovsky's ideas did on reality.
Interesting thing about Velikovsky - when he published his theories, historians and archaeologists would say "His knowledge of ancient history is weak and his interpretations of old texts are inaccurate, but the astronomy aspects were really fascinating!" and astronomers would say "His astronomy is all nonsense, but his theories about mythology and ancient history were really fascinating!"
 
I think the Long Night had to have been exaggerated.  No sun for a generation, or even just a few years, would wipe out almost all multicellular life, not just humans.  It may not have even happened, or been a very loose interpretation of an earlier myth.

I don't know who Velikovsky is or what his theories were, but almost all world mythology absolutely does have a level of astronomy to it. That's basically indisputable. And most the world mythology of ASOIAF have natural disasters in them... So... Be careful not to carry over your real world biases into a fantasy novel, because George is writing a story where magic is fundamentally tied to nature, and natural disasters with magical ramifications are a big part of the series.

The mythology of Quetzalcoatl is a great example - it tells you everything you could ever want to know about the orbit of Venus as it appears from earth. The entire myth is based on the actions of Venus in the sky.

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/lucifer-means-lightbringer/

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

Didn't GRRM said that we will not be seeing Asshai in the "next book"?. Wasn't this before the publication AFFC or ADWD?
I like to think that Tyrion's travel has more meaning that just going to meet Dany

Honestly I can't remember, but I will try to look it up anyway.

I really hope he'll travel there. I believe Asshai is one of the most important locations in this whole series, though we know so little about them.
OTOH hand though there must be a reason these leagues are called the Shadowlands right?

So whether we'll be going there by Tyrion's POVs or by a glass candle, as long as we get to see it I'm happy

[LmL]

If you look at the fire magic we have seen in the series so far, I'd say it produces more shadow than light. To me, it seems like the very nature of fire magic itself may be corrupt. That idea would fit in with the notion that the Shadowlnds function like the heart of winter, a nexus point for fire magic.