R+L=J v.153

[Lord Varys]

Rhaegar says that Aegon already has a song. The Song of Ice and Fire. Whatever it is, it is not an actual song unless there is huge song about all the prophesied deeds of the promised prince. My guess is that the Song of Ice and Fire is mentioned in relation to the promised prince in the prophecy, and it may even be that Rhaegar and other Targaryens interpreted as a war (which would be why Rhaegar thought he had to be a warrior). But nobody may have expected that this would be a war against the Others - but this is what it is going to turn out to be during the course of the series.

[purple-eyes]

Rhaegar says that Aegon already has a song. The Song of Ice and Fire. Whatever it is, it is not an actual song unless there is huge song about all the prophesied deeds of the promised prince. My guess is that the Song of Ice and Fire is mentioned in relation to the promised prince in the prophecy, and it may even be that Rhaegar and other Targaryens interpreted as a war (which would be why Rhaegar thought he had to be a warrior). But nobody may have expected that this would be a war against the Others - but this is what it is going to turn out to be during the course of the series.

 

But Rhaegar captured Lyanna right after a super cold winter. 

I always feel that this is some sort of warning of Others in his mind which made him to take Lyanna so quickly. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

Rhaegar says that Aegon already has a song. The Song of Ice and Fire. Whatever it is, it is not an actual song unless there is huge song about all the prophesied deeds of the promised prince. My guess is that the Song of Ice and Fire is mentioned in relation to the promised prince in the prophecy, and it may even be that Rhaegar and other Targaryens interpreted as a war (which would be why Rhaegar thought he had to be a warrior). But nobody may have expected that this would be a war against the Others - but this is what it is going to turn out to be during the course of the series.

I agree with this analysis -- the song seems to be more of an epic poem than a sing-along song. But from the point of view of the readers, GRRM certainly seems to expect them to understand that there are other meanings as well -- that the title of the series has multiple layers. 

[purple-eyes]

So did Rhaegar still think Aegon was PTWP until he died or he changed his mind after Aegon's birth to think Jon would be PTWP?

If the latter, then he assumed Jon would be a prince, not a daughter?

[J. Stargaryen]

This discussion about the song of ice and fire reminds me of one of my all time favorite Rhaegar troll comments. Once upon a time someone claimed that Rhaegar was an asshole, or something, because Elia asked if he would write a song for Aegon, and he replied that he already had one, per Dany's HotU vision. He refused Elia's request to write a song for their child! Trollololol.

 

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

[Lord Varys]

UL,

 

well, I don't expect it to be ever an epic poem. Just as name for a war foretold in prophecy. The Song of Ice and Fire isn't that much different from the Dance of the Dragons, and that was a name for a war, too. Nobody really 'danced' during the Dance (with the possible exception of Tessarion and Seasmoke) so I don't expect anyone to sing during 'the Song' (besides the Children of the Forest, perhaps, and some other sorcerers whose spells are sung).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What evidence is there that Rhaegar knew that TPTWP had anything to do with defeating the Others? I am not aware that Rhaegar knew the Others would return or had anything to do with the Song. As I noted above, a Song in the context of what Rhaegar was saying is like an epic poem. All we know is that for some reason, Rhaegar believed that the "song" (i.e., the epic poem that would be written about the heroics of TPTWP) would be the song of ice and fire (and by the way, Rhaegar said "the" not "a" song of ice and fire). I think it is logical to conclude that Rhaegar believed this because he read it as part of his research into the prophecy -- but we cannot be 100% certain (although no other possibility seems plausible). 
But from the point of view of the readers -- we are able to understand that ASOIAF means many other things as well. Almost certainly GRRM intends multiple layers and meanings regarding the series title.

Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war weve come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us. The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?

Aemon connects the prince that was promised to the war for the dawn. I personally think that the war for the dawn is connected to the Others, to be fought after a Long Night-ish period.

Atm, that's the only possible connection I can think of. But as Aemon and Rhaegar were in contact over the promised prince, it would be reasonable if Rhaegar knew what Aemon knows. Rhaegar connects the prince with the song, Aemon connects the prince with the war for the dawn. Suggests to me that the song and the war for the dawn are also connected. Could be wrong, though.

[purple-eyes]

UL,

 

well, I don't expect it to be ever an epic poem. Just as name for a war foretold in prophecy. The Song of Ice and Fire isn't that much different from the Dance of the Dragons, and that was a name for a war, too. Nobody really 'danced' during the Dance (with the possible exception of Tessarion and Seasmoke) so I don't expect anyone to sing during 'the Song' (besides the Children of the Forest, perhaps, and some other sorcerers whose spells are sung).

 

Well said!

It must be a epic war.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So did Rhaegar still think Aegon was PTWP until he died or he changed his mind after Aegon's birth to think Jon would be PTWP?
If the latter, then he assumed Jon would be a prince, not a daughter?

I personally think that we have nothing, atm, that suggests that Rhaegar changed his mind about Aegon.
There are people, though, who find the fact that Rhaegar took Lyanna as a suggestion that he did change his mind.

[purple-eyes]

I personally think that we have nothing, atm, that suggests that Rhaegar changed his mind about Aegon.
There are people, though, who find the fact that Rhaegar took Lyanna as a suggestion that he did change his mind.

 

I am most confused about this part. 

What made him change his mind to think Aegon was the one in stead of himself? (maybe due to the red comet)

Then what made him change mind again to think child of Lyanna was the one in stead of Aegon?

If he thought child of Lyanna was the one due to "song of ice and fire", then he should not think Aegon was the one from the very beginning because Elia was not related to ice at all. 

 

I assume he did not change his mind, he just wanted to fulfill another part "dragon has three heads"

But he made a mistake again, this time Jon was the PTWP, not Aegon. 

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

 

Aemon may only have realized that the War for the Dawn was the Song of Ice and Fire and the war the prince had to fight in after the Others had returned (i.e. after the Rebellion).

 

purple-eyes,

 

Rhaegar must have decided at one point in the past that he wasn't the promised prince. Only then would he have been receptive of the possibility that his son might be the One. Then there was the comet in the night of Aegon's conception. That was a strong hint. But he would have only gotten 'confirmation' of this fact after Elia had given birth to healthy boy nine months later. That would have been after Harrenhal, which means we can be sure that Rhaegar meeting Lyanna didn't change anything prophecy-wise. But Elia was barren after Aegon's birth which means Rhaegar had turn to another woman if he wanted a third child.

 

We don't have to assume he went to Lyanna because of ice symbolism or something like that. The fact that he was in love with her and the fact that Elia could no longer bear children is enough to explain his actions. What is unclear is why he acted at the time he did, and why the hell he abducted Lyanna and run away/hid with her, but that most likely will be elaborated on in future books.

 

I, personally, don't find the idea convincing that Rhaegar's interaction with Lyanna after the abduction led to him changing his mind again. It might be, though, that his journey into the Riverlands was first to the Ghost of High Heart, and if she delivered another prophecy then this could have directly caused Lyanna's abduction.

[UnmaskedLurker]

So did Rhaegar still think Aegon was PTWP until he died or he changed his mind after Aegon's birth to think Jon would be PTWP?

If the latter, then he assumed Jon would be a prince, not a daughter?

I actually joined this board in part because many people at that time assumed that Rhaegar was expecting a daughter (on the theory he was recreating Aegon I and his sisters)k and I was not sure. I think that once Rhaegar realized he would not have 3 children with Elia and turned to Lyanna, he would realize she is Ice to his Fire. The information about the Pact of Ice and Fire added support to this theory. BearQueen87 and I have really been the main proponent of this theory, and admittedly, it has not gotten much traction from others. I certainly am not 100% convinced it happened, but the Ice/Fire connection should have been obvious to Rhaegar and at a minimum he should have considered the possibility. He changed his mind once on the subject -- why not twice.

 

Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war weve come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us. The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?

Aemon connects the prince that was promised to the war for the dawn. I personally think that the war for the dawn is connected to the Others, to be fought after a Long Night-ish period.

Atm, that's the only possible connection I can think of. But as Aemon and Rhaegar were in contact over the promised prince, it would be reasonable if Rhaegar knew what Aemon knows. Rhaegar connects the prince with the song, Aemon connects the prince with the war for the dawn. Suggests to me that the song and the war for the dawn are also connected. Could be wrong, though.

I don't know why you assume that the war for the dawn is necessarily connected to the Others in Aemon's mind prior to their known return.

[purple-eyes]

I actually joined this board in part because many people at that time assumed that Rhaegar was expecting a daughter (on the theory he was recreating Aegon I and his sisters)k and I was not sure. I think that once Rhaegar realized he would not have 3 children with Elia and turned to Lyanna, he would realize she is Ice to his Fire. The information about the Pact of Ice and Fire added support to this theory. BearQueen87 and I have really been the main proponent of this theory, and admittedly, it has not gotten much traction from others. I certainly am not 100% convinced it happened, but the Ice/Fire connection should have been obvious to Rhaegar and at a minimum he should have considered the possibility. He changed his mind once on the subject -- why not twice.

 

I don't know why you assume that the war for the dawn is necessarily connected to the Others in Aemon's mind prior to their known return.

 

The question is, if Elia can still carry more child, will he drop his idea with Lyanna? It looks like he would have all three children with Elia if she is healthy enough to do that. Otherwise why not take action earlier with Lyanna if he thought she must be the ice to his fire? No need to wait and see if Elia can have more children. This is why I feel Rhaegar was only in "three dragon heads" theory and still thought Aegon was the PTWP.

But I agree, it is obvious that a child of Lyanna would be a combination of fire and ice. I am just not very sure if Rhaegar thought about this or not.

maybe he just thought song of ice and fire was a war between others and human beings. 

He captured Lyanna only for one more child and also his personal love, not the PTWP.  

 

Rhaenys,

 

Aemon may only have realized that the War for the Dawn was the Song of Ice and Fire and the war the prince had to fight in after the Others had returned (i.e. after the Rebellion).

 

purple-eyes,

 

Rhaegar must have decided at one point in the past that he wasn't the promised prince. Only then would he have been receptive of the possibility that his son might be the One. Then there was the comet in the night of Aegon's conception. That was a strong hint. But he would have only gotten 'confirmation' of this fact after Elia had given birth to healthy boy nine months later. That would have been after Harrenhal, which means we can be sure that Rhaegar meeting Lyanna didn't change anything prophecy-wise. But Elia was barren after Aegon's birth which means Rhaegar had turn to another woman if he wanted a third child.

 

We don't have to assume he went to Lyanna because of ice symbolism or something like that. The fact that he was in love with her and the fact that Elia could no longer bear children is enough to explain his actions. What is unclear is why he acted at the time he did, and why the hell he abducted Lyanna and run away/hid with her, but that most likely will be elaborated on in future books.

 

I, personally, don't find the idea convincing that Rhaegar's interaction with Lyanna after the abduction led to him changing his mind again. It might be, though, that his journey into the Riverlands was first to the Ghost of High Heart, and if she delivered another prophecy then this could have directly caused Lyanna's abduction.

 

You are right. "three heads" and his personal love would be enough for him to turn to Lyanna. 

Not very sure if this is helpful, but in the show:

Oberyn said this:

Elia loved Rhaegar. She obeyed him. And he chose to steal away Lyanna Stark, a pale Northern girl whose veins ran with ice, like all her people

The show is hinting Lyanna is "ice". 

And the show did not say anything about Elia can not have third child. Neither "three heads of dragon" stuff. No KOLT either. 

This gave me a feeling that, the show would make Rhaegar run off with Lyanna either by pure love and passion, and/or by a prophecy of "song of ice and fire"

Lyanna may tell Ned:" Ned, promise me to protect this child. I love his father. And he told me this baby would be a song of ice and fire. "

[Ser Naufragus]

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

 

[purple-eyes]

I am always wondering if Dorne knew about Rhaegar and TOJ stuff. 

It is well within their main pass and there are several fortresses around them.

And the pass was guarded well due to its importance. Rhaegar and KG and their companions are not common people.

Dornishmen should have known about them at some point, right?

But Dorne behaved like they knew nothing about them. They did not dare to do something against him, true. But at least check it for Elia's sake. 

This is kind of weird. 

I do not buy that Elia directed and helped them there. If so, Dorne would not be upset for his "mistreatment" on Elia. 

Strange. 

[TheSmallOther]

 

Yes it can.

 

The song of ice and fire belongs to the prince that was promised who is Jon.

 

I'm just wondering if we are taking things too literally. Father from fire, mother from ice, surely their child must be the one. His is the song of ice and fire. Yet, Rhaegar apparently didn't think he needs a bride from Northern Westeros and married southern lady. Yet he was sure that Aegon is TPTWP. Maester Aemon, who could at least suspect Jon's parentage, didn't think of him as the promised prince, but went to Dany instead.

[Crippledtank]

Why doesn't darkstar receive dawn?
He's a dayne and in the queen maker chapter arrianne isn't sure who'd win between a KG in darkstar? Surely being on par with KG would be enough?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't know why you assume that the war for the dawn is necessarily connected to the Others in Aemon's mind prior to their known return.

The Battle for the Dawn was fought to end the Long Night. I don't find it so hard to connect the war for the dawn to that..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys,
 
Aemon may only have realized that the War for the Dawn was the Song of Ice and Fire and the war the prince had to fight in after the Others had returned (i.e. after the Rebellion).

That is possible, sure. He most likely did already have the info, though, prior to the war, even if the dots were still to be connected.
However, it is equally possible that he had connected the dots prior to the rebellion, or that Rhaegar had done so, on his own.

[TRLR]

So did Rhaegar still think Aegon was PTWP until he died or he changed his mind after Aegon's birth to think Jon would be PTWP?

If the latter, then he assumed Jon would be a prince, not a daughter?

 

He might still think that Aegon is PTWP based on what he knew but knowing how GRRM had set up the nature of prophecies in this world, he could also be wrong. I've always thought that he thinks Aegon is the PTWP but he needed one more head that's why he took Lyanna not knowing that his child with Lyanna would end up as the personification of ice+fire if R+L=J is indeed 100% true.