R+L=J v.153

[Mithras]

I'm just wondering if we are taking things too literally. Father from fire, mother from ice, surely their child must be the one. His is the song of ice and fire. Yet, Rhaegar apparently didn't think he needs a bride from Northern Westeros and married southern lady. Yet he was sure that Aegon is TPTWP. Maester Aemon, who could at least suspect Jon's parentage, didn't think of him as the promised prince, but went to Dany instead.

 

It is not that literal. No one in the story ever made this connection yet. Hell, R+L=J is still not confirmed.

 

Plus, Rhaegar didnot have any saying in his marriage. If he had the right to choose his wife, I guess he would marry Cersei.

 

Aemon had no idea about Jon's real parentage.

[purple-eyes]

 

He might still think that Aegon is PTWP based on what he knew but knowing how GRRM had set up the nature of prophecies in this world, he could also be wrong. I've always thought that he thinks Aegon is the PTWP but he needed one more head that's why he took Lyanna not knowing that his child with Lyanna would end up as the personification of ice+fire if R+L=J is indeed 100% true.

 

Maybe, but if so, he probably should have given some more care and protection to Aegon since he was PTWP. 

For example, send one KG specifically for Aegon or release Aegon from hostage. 

Based on his behavior, it looks like he changed his mind and focused himself completely on the Lyanna and Jon. 

[Gi_Varotti]

We don't really know what the Song of Ice and Fire is supposed to be. My guess is that it is a poetic term for the war against the Others. One assumes it is mentioned in the prophecy of the promised prince Rhaegar read but the exact context is unknown. Is Rhaegar's belief that the song of the promised prince is the Song of Ice and Fire stated this way in the prophecy or is it Rhaegar's interpretation? We don't know.

 

The problem with searching for people embodying 'the Song' and crossbreeding bloodlines to create that guy is strange in a rather obvious sense. Lets assume Jon Snow is the Song of Ice and Fire. And then what? End of story? I don't even understand what it could mean that a character embodies 'a song' despite from the obvious metaphorical thing. But how do you connect that to the plot? How do you transfer the metaphor alluding to the title of the series into a valid plot point? 'A Song of Ice and Fire' is the title of this series, it is what the story is about as a whole. It doesn't refer to one protagonist alone.

 

I agree but I still think Jon has his share on the tittle. This is how I see his connection to the plot: Jon being reborn as AA will command the NW (Lightbringer) during the fight against The Others. His parentage is one of the key points on AA's prophecy. 

 

 

Probably not important. But we discussed if there was any importance of Ned naming Lyanna and Rhaegar's son "Jon". Some suggested that this was more of an author hint to the reader's that Jon was a former KitN. Another suggested that since Jon isn't his son he didn't follow the same pattern as his other sons (named after men he was close with), thus he picked a royal name. The obvious answer is that he was named after Jon Aryn. Purple-eyes pointed out that Ned was fostering Jon Targaryen as Jon Aryn had once fostered him. So he was honoring him with the name of one of his closest friends.

 

Maybe Rhaegar  told Lyanna to name the kid after Jon Connington if it was a boy. Ned could've honored Aryn when he named Arya.

 

 

 

 

We don't have to assume he went to Lyanna because of ice symbolism or something like that. The fact that he was in love with her and the fact that Elia could no longer bear children is enough to explain his actions. What is unclear is why he acted at the time he did, and why the hell he abducted Lyanna and run away/hid with her, but that most likely will be elaborated on in future books.

 

 

 

Maybe because she was already promised to Robert?  :dunno: 

 

And I don't think Rhaegar was looking for a woman that fitted in the ice part of the prophecy either, it just happened that he met Lyanna and they fell in love with each other. 

[Lord Varys]

Gi_Varotti,

 

Rhaegar could have tried to get Lord Rickard to dissolve the betrothal and allow Lyanna to become his mistress or second wife. Or he could have challenged Robert to single combat for Lyanna's hand. This type of things happens among nobles in this world (Prince Daemon won the hand of Laena Velaryon that way).

[Gi_Varotti]

Gi_Varotti,

 

Rhaegar could have tried to get Lord Rickard to dissolve the betrothal and allow Lyanna to become his mistress or second wife. Or he could have challenged Robert to single combat for Lyanna's hand. This type of things happens among nobles in this world (Prince Daemon won the hand of Laena Velaryon that way).

 

Thanks :)

 

Now that left me 2 questions: 

1. Stark honor. Would lord Rickard take his word back? 

2. On challenging Robert. Maybe Rhaegar thought it through and considered that he could die, which would make the prophecy impossible to happen. 

[Consigliere]

 
Thanks :)
 
Now that got me with 2 doubts: 
1. Stark honor. Would lord Rickard take his word back? 

I could see this happening if Lyanna was to be the 2nd wife, but not as mistress. Doesn't make sense to me that a lord paramount would break his daughter's betrothal to another lord paramount just so his daughter can become the crown prince's mistress.

[purple-eyes]

Gi_Varotti,

 

Rhaegar could have tried to get Lord Rickard to dissolve the betrothal and allow Lyanna to become his mistress or second wife. Or he could have challenged Robert to single combat for Lyanna's hand. This type of things happens among nobles in this world (Prince Daemon won the hand of Laena Velaryon that way).

 

IMHO, everything Rhaegar has done pointed to the urgency and importance to have a baby (I am not saying he did not love Lyanna)

 

1. Lyanna is going to wed soon after Brandon since she turned 15 already. Rhaegar had no chance to father a child if she married to Robert. 

2. Rickard may not be happy to let Lyanna become a second wife of him. First thing is his honor to keep promise. Second thing is that he may think it is more useful to ally with Robert if they want to do something against Rhaegar's father. In this case, he does not want to put Lyanna into a dangerous situation. So if Rickard rejects Rhagegar, then Rhaegar has no chance to abduct her. Rickard would be much more cautious. Or even marry Lyanna immediately. 

3. He can not challenge Robert for a open duel because firstly he is married, this is a big insult to the Royal house and Martell, his dad would be mad, secondly, how come he is sure that he can defeat Robert in a single combat? If by any chance he loses, then he has no chance to father a child with Lyanna. 

4. He hid in the TOJ for several months. This is to make sure Lyanna get pregnant. You have to wait for a few months to know for sure she is pregnant and some pregnancies may stop in the first three months. He had to be around for this sake. In fact he would rather stay until the birth to make sure this is a healthy baby considering his mom's bad track of pregnancies. If Lyanna ends up with a stillborn, Rhaegar would try again immediately. 

5. Look at how quick he knocked up Elia. Immediately after she recovered from Rhaenys, he made her pregnant again. Immediately after Aegon birth and Elia was barren, he turned to Lyanna. 

I know Rhaegar loved Lyanna. But he apparently did everything specifically for this baby, the third head of the dragon. 

Running off and missing for one year is the safest way to do this. 

[Gi_Varotti]

I could see this happening if Lyanna was to be the 2nd wife, but not as mistress. Doesn't make sense to me that a lord paramount would break his daughter's betrothal to another lord paramount just so his daughter can become the crown prince's mistress.

 

I agree.

 

 

Running off and missing for one year is the safest way to do this. 

 

That's how I see it too.

[MtnLion]

The point remains that Viserys, by historical account, is called Aerys' heir while Aegon is mentioned to still be alive. That's something that cannot simply be ignored. Just as Bran cannot have been called Eddard Starks heir while at the same time mentioning how Robb is still alive.

He is mentioned as Aerys' new heir, but no definitive time is given for the statement. The way that Yandel is putting his narrative together gives the impression that Viserys was the new heir because Aerys had Aegon killed. There are many other inconsistencies in Yandel's account.

He might have travelled alone. I've said that. but that doesn't make it the only logical course, and thus should not be treated as a fact until there is any confirmation.

We know that he left on his mission on Aerys' direction, no implication whatsoever that anyone else accompanied him. At the end of the mission he is at the tower of joy, and later he is still there when Ned arrives, and there is no one accompanying him at that time. There is strong evidence that NO ONE accompanied Hightower on his mission. If you argue that point, show something that says that Hightower was accompanied. Fact, no one accompanied Hightower, according to canon sources. Suggestion that someone could have accompanied Hightower, while possible with more information, is totally unsupported.

[purple-eyes]

 

I agree.

 

 

That's how I see it too.

 

Indeed. Rhaegar was just as obsessed in prophecy as his grandfather. 

Married two children due to a prophecy and made them living in tragedy.  

Same thing with Rhaegar. 

If Elia could still carry more children, Rhaegar will just hide his love deep inside and do nothing with Lyanna (indeed nothing after the HH for one year). 

But Elia can not have more children now, so Rhaegar decided to get one more with the woman he happened to love. 

[MtnLion]

I never said Hightower took people with him who then remained at the tower. I said he might have been accompanied by people who then accompanied Rhaegar back to KL.

There would be no one additional be at the tower when Ned arrives. I stated that before, quite clearly.

You neglect that Rhaegar only was without his Kingsguard when he was at Summerhall. Oh, you can make up whatever story you want about Rhaegar's return to King's Landing. It could have been the flying spaghetti monster that escorted him safely through rebel lands. We don't know. The LOGICAL way that it happens, is that Whent and Dayne leave with Rhaegar, trapping Hightower into remaining.

[purple-eyes]

He is mentioned as Aerys' new heir, but no definitive time is given for the statement. The way that Yandel is putting his narrative together gives the impression that Viserys was the new heir because Aerys had Aegon killed. There are many other inconsistencies in Yandel's account.We know that he left on his mission on Aerys' direction, no implication whatsoever that anyone else accompanied him. At the end of the mission he is at the tower of joy, and later he is still there when Ned arrives, and there is no one accompanying him at that time. There is strong evidence that NO ONE accompanied Hightower on his mission. If you argue that point, show something that says that Hightower was accompanied. Fact, no one accompanied Hightower, according to canon sources. Suggestion that someone could have accompanied Hightower, while possible with more information, is totally unsupported.

 

I thought it is a common sense that if a high captain as Hightower needs to travel from North to the South across War zone for an important mission, he definitely needs some companions. he would have somebody to serve him and take care of his trip and information stuff. 

Ned brought 6 with him, this is even after the war. 

[purple-eyes]

You neglect that Rhaegar only was without his Kingsguard when he was at Summerhall. Oh, you can make up whatever story you want about Rhaegar's return to King's Landing. It could have been the flying spaghetti monster that escorted him safely through rebel lands. We don't know. The LOGICAL way that it happens, is that Whent and Dayne leave with Rhaegar, trapping Hightower into remaining.

 

Summer hall trip is in peaceful time and it is closer too. 

And he did not have an important royal mission there, just a casual trip. 

And how do you know he did not have KG with him for most of his trip and then leave them somewhere close (like a hotel?) and then go to the ruins by himself?

I do not understand your point. 

[MtnLion]

I thought it is a common sense that if a high captain as Hightower needs to travel from North to the South across War zone for an important mission, he definitely needs some companions. he would have somebody to serve him and take care of his trip and information stuff. 
Ned brought 6 with him, this is even after the war.

And how many did Barristan slay before getting too wounded to continue, on the Trident? How many did Jaime slay at the Whispering Woods, before getting captured? How many wounds did Arthur Dayne take against the King's Wood Brotherhood? Do you think that Lord Commander Hightower was incompetent to be a Kingsguard? There is common sense.

How many men did Barristan take with him when he rescued Aerys from Duskendale? None, he went in alone, and fought his way out, alone, with Aerys in tow.

Summer hall trip is in peaceful time and it is closer too.
And he did not have an important royal mission there, just a casual trip.
And how do you know he did not have KG with him for most of his trip and then leave them somewhere close (like a hotel?) and then go to the ruins by himself?
I do not understand your point.

I did not say going to or coming from Summerhall. I said while Rhaegar was AT Summerhall was the only time he did not have his Kingsguard with him. They would accompany him to Summerhall, and after he was done, they would join him on his trip back to wherever he was going.

I resent your tone. I have you on my ignore list, where you will remain.

[UnmaskedLurker]

You neglect that Rhaegar only was without his Kingsguard when he was at Summerhall. Oh, you can make up whatever story you want about Rhaegar's return to King's Landing. It could have been the flying spaghetti monster that escorted him safely through rebel lands. We don't know. The LOGICAL way that it happens, is that Whent and Dayne leave with Rhaegar, trapping Hightower into remaining.

I have been meaning to ask you a question about this analysis for a long time. You argue that W&D went with R to KL to trap H at ToJ. But if that is the case, then why doesn't H merely go back to KL as soon as W&D return to ToJ?  The theory that makes sense to me (and would not depend on whether W&D went with R to KL) is that R refused to agree to return to KL unless H agreed to stay at ToJ until R got back or otherwise got word to H that it was OK to return to KL. Because H's mission was to get R back to KL and because the King was guarded by Jaime, H agreed, and as a man of honor, kept his word (until it became irrelevant after the deaths of R and the other royals and then stayed to protect the new king). Why is it more persuasive to you that H only stayed because W&D went with R to KL -- given that H still stays even after W&D get back -- rather than that R forced H to promise to stay as a condition to get R back to KL?

[purple-eyes]

You neglect that Rhaegar only was without his Kingsguard when he was at Summerhall. Oh, you can make up whatever story you want about Rhaegar's return to King's Landing. It could have been the flying spaghetti monster that escorted him safely through rebel lands. We don't know. The LOGICAL way that it happens, is that Whent and Dayne leave with Rhaegar, trapping Hightower into remaining.

 

Oh, you are saying Arthur and Oswell accompanied Rhaegar back to KL and then returned to TOJ to meet Hightower?

this is so hard to believe. 

GRRM and APP said Rhaegar ordered three KG to guard Lyanna then they stayed with Lyanna. 

Whoever Rhaegar had with him at TOJ (except Arthur and Oswell) or whoever Hightower brought with him, Rhaegar could travel with them.

I am not saying Hightower could not be a solo traveler, but what you suggested is very hard to believe.  

[Sly Wren]

I have been meaning to ask you a question about this analysis for a long time. You argue that W&D went with R to KL to trap H at ToJ. But if that is the case, then why doesn't H merely go back to KL as soon as W&D return to ToJ?  The theory that makes sense to me (and would not depend on whether W&D went with R to KL) is that R refused to agree to return to KL unless H agreed to stay at ToJ until R got back or otherwise got word to H that it was OK to return to KL. Because H's mission was to get R back to KL and because the King was guarded by Jaime, H agreed, and as a man of honor, kept his word (until it became irrelevant after the deaths of R and the other royals and then stayed to protect the new king). Why is it more persuasive to you that H only stayed because W&D went with R to KL -- given that H still stays even after W&D get back -- rather than that R forced H to promise to stay as a condition to get R back to KL?

:agree:

Throw in that Rhaegar would probably not want to risk bringing either Whent or Dayne with him (just in case of Aerys' wrath). And that he probably didn't want Lyanna left alone with a possibly less-than-sympathetic guard. And that Rhaegar had the big stick in this power struggle--he, not any of the KG, is in a position to give orders and twist arms--far more than Hightower could.

 

Your option seems most likely--and easiest to explain.

[purple-eyes]

:agree:

Throw in that Rhaegar would probably not want to risk bringing either Whent or Dayne with him (just in case of Aerys' wrath). And that he probably didn't want Lyanna left alone with a possibly less-than-sympathetic guard. And that Rhaegar had the big stick in this power struggle--he, not any of the KG, is in a position to give orders and twist arms--far more than Hightower could.

 

Your option seems most likely--and easiest to explain.

 

Rhaegar is the crown prince and apparently the military commander in the following battle, I think Rhaegar just simply ordered three KG to stay there then they followed the order. Aery was not there, so Rhaegar is the person they had to obey. 

Rhaegar was worried about the safety of Lyanna and baby, so he thought 3 KG would be best for them. 

I am pretty sure if Hightower came with Jiame or Lewyn, he would also order all of them to stay at TOJ. 

Why do we assume Rhaegar had to blackmail Hightower by refusing to go back?

He wanted to go back to the war since he knew they were losing now.

If he did not, his dynasty would be destroyed and he would not be a prince any more.  

If he did not want to return, nobody can force him to return. 

I thought this is simple and straightforward. 

[Sly Wren]

 

Rhaegar is the crown prince and apparently the military commander in the following battle, I think Rhaegar just simply ordered three KG to stay there then they followed the order. Aery was not there, so Rhaegar is the person they had to obey. 

Rhaegar was worried about the safety of Lyanna and baby, so he thought 3 KG would be best for them. 

I am pretty sure if Hightower came with Jiame or Lewyn, he would also order all of them to stay at TOJ. 

Why do we assume Rhaegar had to blackmail Hightower by refusing to go back?

He wanted to go back to the war since he knew they were losing now.

If he did not, his dynasty would be destroyed and he would not be a prince any more.  

If he did not want to return, nobody can force him to return. 

I thought this is simple and straightforward. 

I won't presume to answer for Unmasked Lurker.

 

But for my own logic: the idea seems to be that Aerys may have ordered Hightower to bring Rhaegar back. Would want the KG back at KL with Rhaegar. And maybe with Rhaegar in upcoming battles.

 

Were that the case, but Rhaegar wanted the KG to say in Dorne, now the KG (particularly Hightower) have opposing orders. Really think Hightower would want to follow Aerys over Rhaegar. So, Rhaegar may have needed leverage. The KG are supposed to follow orders no matter what. But if there are conflicts--the KG are people, not automatons.

 

Would also explain some of the conversation Ned has with the KG at the tower. How they are not pleased at being kept "far away" from where they should have been.

 

But if there was no conflict in the orders, you are right. And the KG could just be there because Rhaegar said "stay."  And we don't know there was a conflict in the orders. But, given what we do know of the political and military situation, and Aerys' personality, just seems like there might have been a conflict. 

 

That's my take, at least. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

You neglect that Rhaegar only was without his Kingsguard when he was at Summerhall. Oh, you can make up whatever story you want about Rhaegar's return to King's Landing. It could have been the flying spaghetti monster that escorted him safely through rebel lands. We don't know. The LOGICAL way that it happens, is that Whent and Dayne leave with Rhaegar, trapping Hightower into remaining.

No, I do not neglect.

 

And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. 

 

This quote shows that no one accompanied Rhaegar to Summerhall, not even the Kingsguard. That does not mean, however, that a KG would otherwise always accompany him, and it most certainly does not mean, that Dayne and Whent always accompanied him. 

 

The statement of ToJ is that

 

But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south.

 

To me, this does not suggest that Whent and Dayne first travelled to KL.

 

 

 

He is mentioned as Aerys' new heir, but no definitive time is given for the statement. The way that Yandel is putting his narrative together gives the impression that Viserys was the new heir because Aerys had Aegon killed. There are many other inconsistencies in Yandel's account.

We know that he left on his mission on Aerys' direction, no implication whatsoever that anyone else accompanied him. At the end of the mission he is at the tower of joy, and later he is still there when Ned arrives, and there is no one accompanying him at that time. There is strong evidence that NO ONE accompanied Hightower on his mission. If you argue that point, show something that says that Hightower was accompanied. Fact, no one accompanied Hightower, according to canon sources. Suggestion that someone could have accompanied Hightower, while possible with more information, is totally unsupported.

 

This is the sentence I am talking about:

 

He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King’s Landing with Rhaegar’s children as a hostage against Dorne. 

 

Explain to me the logic in mentioning Viserys as heir, while at the same time stating that Aegon was still alive at that point in time?

 

Like I stated above, Rhaegar ordered the three KG to keep guard over Lyanna. That does not suggest that Whent and Dayne left the tower, to be sent back later. To me, that suggest they remained, just as Hightower.

 

I compared the royal missions I could think of:

- Myrcella is in Dorne with Ser Arys (as far as Cersei knows). Yet a KG with squires etc is sent to Dorne to go and escort her back to KL

- Cersei is at CR, and two KG's come to escort her to KL for her wedding

- Jaime is sent into the Riverlands, accompanied by quite a lot of squires and soldiers

 

In all of these instances, the KG knight in question was sent out on a royal mission, to escort another royal. Is that not exactly what Hightower was sent out to do?