R+L=J v.153

[purple-eyes]

:agree: Looks like you are also in the "Rhaegar changed his mind" camp regarding who would be TPTWP. BearQueen87 will be pleased.

 

I already shifted back and forth between "Rhaegar changed his mind and decided that Jon is TPTWP" and "Rhaegar still thought Aegon is TPTWP until the end". 

there are already enough reasons for Rhaegar to capture Lyanna: 1. He wanted the third head 2. Elia can not have more children. 3. He is attracted to Lyanna. 4. Lyanna is willing to run with him from her marriage. He does not need an extra reason to do it. 

 

however, considering how he did not care about the safety of Aegon in his actions, I also felt that he thought Aegon was already "useless" or "much less useful than Jon" for his prophecy. Then I think something changed his mind after the birth of Aegon. Maybe a prophecy from the Ghost of high heart. 

[Lord Varys]

UL,

 

actually, we don't know whether it was single combat or not. We don't know what happened at the tower, and the stuff about Howland saving Ned is too ambiguous to conclude anything. Could be that he participated in the fighting, could be that he only treated Ned's wounds, could be that he confused Arthur for a moment giving Ned the time to kill him, could be that he convinced Ser Arthur not to kill or attack Ned in the first place so that Arthur was cut by a different Northman still on his feet at that time.

 

I'm in agreement with you here and you actually reinforce my point here that all this 'speculation' what Ned - the savvy liar/politician - would all have included in his deliberations how to best hide Jon's identity isn't really based on anything. First it makes all kinds of assumptions about what Ned would have thought about the subtleties of politics and plots when he effectively was a naive and straightforward man his whole life. After he became Hand he may have begun to wonder what Varys could uncover and find out if he took his mind to that, but we really don't have any reason to assume that Ned had that clear a picture of Varys at this particular time. And ML dragging Littlefinger into all that makes even less sense due to the fact that he was a political nonentity at this time, and is confirmed to be not all that interested in history (meaning things that happened when he was a boy).

We have also to keep in mind that Ned was full of grief at the tower, and may not have exactly thought things through at first. One assumes that the plan only gestated after they had reached Starfall. 

 

What Ned would have focused on was to disconnect Jon Snow from Lyanna as good as possible. Making him younger than he actually was would have been a huge part of that, as well as never presenting or taking the boy to court. I think the reason why he doesn't want to take him to KL lies in there, not so much in how Jon might be treated there. If people actually see Jon Snow, and are reminded of the fact that the new Hand has a bastard, some people might become interested in him.

 

Ned not telling everything he could tell about Lyanna and her death would create suspicion rather than quell it. If Rhaegar had told the court or others that Lyanna was pregnant or if people at court had suspected as much, those people would be irritated/suspicious if Ned would not address the question what happened to her (speculative) unborn child. Not to mention that anyone thinking about that possibility/fact would have easily connected the 'Lyanna's child' with the 'Jon Snow' dot. The success of the deception lies in keeping those things apart - and on a little goodwill on the part of the author. The Jon Snow mystery isn't really set up in this series - you can see that with nobody ever thinking or talking about Lyanna, Rhaegar, and their relationship at all those points were this should have come up.

 

But this is just my take on how I would try to do it in Ned's position. He may not have been as smart. But it clearly is the most reasonable take on that with the knowledge we presently have.

 

corbon,

 

we have issues with the Kingsguard concept there. I never contradicted the facts in the books, I said that it is not confirmed that Aerys had assigned Oswell and Arthur to Rhaegar. We learn from Selmy that it is the king who decides who gets KG protection. We know that Rhaella and Viserys didn't have KG protection all the time. That is a hint that Aerys did not, in fact, issue a general order that his KG is supposed to protect and obey his wife and children. He rather gave them different tasks, which at some point also included military duties and other stuff, but that doesn't mean they were legally obliged to obey Rhaegar.

 

I'm saying Oswell and Arthur going with Rhaegar could have been against the king's wishes and orders. I'm not saying that this is the case. We don't know why they went with him - my guess is that they did so because they were close to him. Aerys could also have allowed them to do that, but that is not necessary. We don't even know if Rhaegar had any KG with him on Dragonstone. If not, then he would have been forced to go to KL to pick Oswell and Arthur up there, and they would not have able to join him without the king's leave, right?

 

Of course every human being judges. But that is not the point. The point is that the rules of the order don't allow you to do that if you are a member. As a KG you aren't allowed to decide whether your king is sane or insane and subsequently decide whether he is fit to rule or not. Not even the king's physician seems to have this kind of authority in this setting. Staying away from the king if he hasn't sent you away wouldn't be an honorable way. It would be about the same thing as hiding in the closet when somebody wants to talk to you. Not very honorable, especially if you can actually correctly guess what the king would order you, but use this technicality as an excuse.

 

And when I last checked it is not the place of the Kingsguard to decide what the king's best interest is. That's for the king to decide. It may be good for the dynasty, the government, or the Realm to have a sane king, but that has nothing to do with the best interest of the king. And the Kingsguard does serve the king, not the dynasty, the government, or the Realm.

 

I'm not saying it is a bad thing to plot against the king's in the best interest of the greater good, but it is nothing the Kingsguard can honorably do.

 

Robert not caring about where Hightower and Whent ended up makes no sense at all in this series. ACoK reinforces the fame of Ser Barristan Selmy, and the credence he would lend to any king he would follow. Hightower and Whent joining Viserys III would be a major problem for Robert. And if he doesn't know that they are dead he couldn't rule out that this is exactly what already has happened, or what will soon happen, right?

 

The Kingsguard is an institution serving the King on the Iron Throne, not a particular dynasty. George has said that rebellion/usurpation aren't included in the vows, which means any KG would swear a new vow to new king each time anyway. There is no difference between Robert accepting Jaime and Barristan as his KG than, say, Daeron II accepting the KG of his father, Aegon IV, or Aegon III going along with the KG of Aegon II (one of which, Marston Waters, was instrumental in events leading to the death of his own mother). Any king has to use a vow to ensure loyalty in his servants - especially those had been particularly loyal to their predecessors with whom those kings had been at odds.

 

Also note that Renly didn't have a Kingsguard of his own, but created a new order of knights, the Rainbow Guard, which had different rules than the KG - for instance, Lord Bryce Caron remained lord after he joined the KG which means that Renly's order didn't demand that its members don't hold any lands - perhaps they could even marry.

More importantly, if you check the history of the Kingsguard it seems that there were always only seven of them, neither Jaehaerys during his fight against Maegor nor Rhaenyra/Aegon filled up the missing members of the Kingsguard/Queensguard with new recruits, creating a scenario in which there were seven against seven. Originally Aegon II had five and Rhaenyra two of Viserys' seven, and then Steffon Darkyn defected to Rhaenyra. Thereafter this remained as it was until KG/QGs died in battle, upon which new knights were named.

 

Not to mention that Stannis doesn't have a Kingsguard - presumably because it would be sacrilege to name knights to such an order while you are not the King on the Iron Throne.

 

Jaime knowing Hightower has nothing to do with the fact that he believes the man stayed true until the end. If he believes that, he has to have a reason for that. I know people, too, but if I don't know what has happened to them exactly, I also don't know if they continued to live up to their ideals. Not to mention that not knowing that he is dead doesn't allow Jaime to think of him as definitely dead.

 

The scenario that it would be impossible to backtrack Hightowers steps to the tower also makes no sense. Conveniently, there seems to have been no war in the Reach or down in the Red Mountains during the second half of the Rebellion, right? Gold loosens tongues, and it should have been a sight to remember for every peasant if a Kingsguard came through the village, right? Varys could do that in Robert's service (or following his own curiosity) just as well as Lord Leyton. Everyone with money could.

 

As to Aerys/Rhaegar:

 

The text (and you) gives no evidence as to why Aerys wanted to have Rhaegar lead the army. It just said that he did want to do that - we have no idea about the reason. It is just your assumption that he felt compelled to do that. Could be, but there is no proof. All we know is that he wanted Rhaegar back as early as the Connington appointment. Choosing one of Rhaegar's men as Hand instead of him is a strong sign that this might be some sort of reconciliation offer - 'Look, I've named your buddy Hand, come back to me, everything is fine!'. But also note that Aerys didn't fire Chelsted and name Rhaegar Hand in his place upon his return. Perhaps he made him Lord Protector instead, but there is no proof of that, either.

 

Finally, there is nothing blatantly obvious in regards to Ned's motivation to hide Jon's identity. If he believed that Robert would actually harm his nephew he is completely fucked-up character since everybody with a shred of self esteem would permanently cut any ties of 'friendship' to that guy. Yet Ned is genuinely happy to see Robert again, and there is no hint whatsoever that he doesn't feel anything but the deepest affection for him.

He may have feared Jon's life would be endangered if it became public knowledge that he was Lyanna's legitimate son, but focusing singularly on Robert makes little sense there. Targaryen loyalists could have kidnapped the boy, risen in his name, dragging House Stark in another war. Robert personally could easily have known the truth - if he was truly Robert's friend he would have allowed the boy to live out his life as an obscure bastard.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

I already shifted back and forth between "Rhaegar changed his mind and decided that Jon is TPTWP" and "Rhaegar still thought Aegon is TPTWP until the end". 

there are already enough reasons for Rhaegar to capture Lyanna: 1. He wanted the third head 2. Elia can not have more children. 3. He is attracted to Lyanna. 4. Lyanna is willing to run with him from her marriage. He does not need an extra reason to do it. 

 

however, considering how he did not care about the safety of Aegon in his actions, I also felt that he thought Aegon was already "useless" or "much less useful than Jon" for his prophecy. Then I think something changed his mind after the birth of Aegon. Maybe a prophecy from the Ghost of high heart. 

If Rhaegar was convinced Aegon was the promised prince, he would have been convinced that Aegon had a role to play, and thus that he was destined to do whatever the Promised Prince was supposed to do, and thus, was destined to survive until that time came.

 

Also, what suggests that he did not care about Aegon's safety? Aegon was first on Dragonstone, surrounded by whichever guards Rhaegar would have employed on Dragonstone, and the remainder of the household besides. Once in KL, there were the gold cloaks, and whichever other guards the Red Keep might have had.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

 

Here is the exact quote:

 

They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.

 

 

I think that some of your speculation about how AD died can be eliminated or reduced in likelihood based on this quote. For example, simply tending to the wounds is not really plausible. Dying from wounds of battle are not normally thought of in this way where Ned states that AD "would have killed me". I also think that "convincing him not to attack" also stretches credulity. HR talks AD into agreeing not to attack -- and then Ned kills AD? I don't believe that is plausible. But I agree that we don't know in what way HR helped Ned from being killed -- it just seems clear that HR participated in some way that allowed Ned to kill AD. That is all I was implying -- and it really does not matter whether it was "single combat" or "mostly single combat with a little help from the crannogman." I was simply stating that Yandel is repeating what is commonly believed to have happened -- and he seems to get it mostly right -- even if not right in every detail.

 

I strongly disagree, however, that there is any evidence that Ned ever mentioned a stillborn child of Lyanna. Such a concept is never mentioned in the series -- there is no real hint or clue in that direction. Again, I am not sure it really matters precisely what "lie" Ned told about the circumstances of Lyanna's last days, but I just find this conclusion of yours to be wild speculation based only on what you would have done under the circumstances. Without any evidence that Rhaegar told someone that Lyanna was pregnant, Ned would have no reason to volunteer the notion. And yes, Robert assumes that Rhaegar raped Lyanna and rape sometimes results in pregnancy -- but not always. Introducing the idea of a stillborn child that no one ever sees does not really diminish speculation if people otherwise think Ned is lying. So unless Ned absolutely must account for a known pregnancy, I doubt he would introduce the issue on his own. But again, I am not sure it really matters in the end to resolving any of the real mysteries of the series.

[purple-eyes]

If Rhaegar was convinced Aegon was the promised prince, he would have been convinced that Aegon had a role to play, and thus that he was destined to do whatever the Promised Prince was supposed to do, and thus, was destined to survive until that time came.

 

Also, what suggests that he did not care about Aegon's safety? Aegon was first on Dragonstone, surrounded by whichever guards Rhaegar would have employed on Dragonstone, and the remainder of the household besides. Once in KL, there were the gold cloaks, and whichever other guards the Red Keep might have had.

 

It is indeed one possible reason that Rhaegar thought Aegon would survive anyway since he is the TPWP.

It is even possible that he thought he would be destined to kill Robert and win the trident because he is the father of  TPWP.

 

But if Varys can think (he claimed) about stealing little Aegon out for his safety, Rhaegar, as his father, should have thought that too. 

Elia and Rhaenys are already enough to serve as hostage for Dorne. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

It is indeed one possible reason that Rhaegar thought Aegon would survive anyway since he is the TPWP.

It is even possible that he thought he would be destined to kill Robert and win the trident because he is the father of  TPWP.

 

But if Varys can think (he claimed) about stealing little Aegon out for his safety, Rhaegar, as his father, should have thought that too. 

Elia and Rhaenys are already enough to serve as hostage for Dorne. 

Rhaegar also seemed quite convinced that he would return from the Trident, which didn't happen. Varys only smuggled Aegon out when there were lions at (or through) the gate, as far as we know. 

 

How could Rhaegar have predicted that the Lannisters would be able to sack the city because Aerys opened the doors for them, a scenario which could only happen because Rhaegar lost at the Trident, despite his own convictions that he'd be victorious.

[Avalatis]

And the ToJ dialogue proves they have heard the news of the Trident and the sack. All Ned does is mention the Trident and they immediately respond calling Robert 'the Usurper' (capitalised, which is important) which shows they know Aerys is dead and Robert crowned.
Robert the rebel might be called a usurper (no capital) - might (more likely just called a rebel). Robert the Usurper has been crowned as King, a king they do not accept.

 

I think you mistook the context of my post. I was talking about what Vary's could rationalize based on the information he has received. If he found out the KG were at the tower guarding Lyanna (as per Rhaegar's orders) he and others would likely assume they hadn't heard the news. It was an isolated tower. So Ned killing them there or elsewhere isn't really a big deal.

 

I definitely think they heard news and were semi-informed of the events going on in the 7 Kingdoms.

[Lord Varys]

The idea that Rhaegar changed his mind on the promised prince again, is not very likely but not completely implausible, either, if we go with him visiting the Ghost in the Riverlands. But then, we have as of yet no clue what she may have said to him. Would Lyanna be the key to the promised prince? Or was it merely important for him to conceive a child with her to make another dragon head? We simply do not know.

 

UL,

 

oh, I meant that there might have actually been some sort of single combat scenario, too. Say, the knights challenging Ned's guys repeatedly to single combat or something like that. We really don't what happened in detail. But I really think tending Ned's wounds is technically covered in the sentence. Say, if Arthur was the last KG standing, everyone else was dead, and Ned actually would have bled out or died of his wounds if Howland Reed hadn't been there to take care of him. That scenario doesn't spring to mind at once, but it is a possibility. But I really try to keep myself from theorizing over that stuff too much - else you are stuck with Howland Reed the super skinchanger and don't get that image out of your head ;-). Some things should come as surprises.

 

There is of course no textual evidence for my scenario. Since there is no textual evidence that Lyanna is actually Jon's mother. But the reason why George shrouds Rhaegar and Lyanna's story in mystery is to not spill the beans on the Jon story too early. Mentioning that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married or that she was pregnant would most likely have too big a clue. Remember, even ADwD - which effectively answered the question with its clues - included the red herring of the fisherman's daughter to keep the casual reader who never thought about Lyanna and Rhaegar as Jon's parents off track.

We'll get the full story eventually, and we should prepare ourselves for a plausible scenario actually answering some of the questions I raise here. For instance, how exactly Ned hid Jon Snow, what his motivation was, what his promise was, whether Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, when and were than happened, what Aerys' problems with that was, what Hightower's mission was, why the Kingsguard had to stay at the tower, why Rhaegar and Lyanna run away/went underground etc. All that will be unraveled eventually, and there is a lot of stuff which has yet to be touched upon.

 

The point of a stillborn child would not only be to raise the issue despite the fact that nobody knew anything about it, but also to give a correct explanation about her death. We have to keep in mind that Ned is no great liar. Would he be able to keep a straight face when pressed about Lyanna's last minutes and words? When asked where she was, why she was there, and why there was no maester with her? Telling the truth works always better than trying to lie if you don't have to, and Ned could have the advantage of sharing his genuine grief with Robert putting him off guard - if he felt he was that much threat.

 

My biggest problem there with you approach is that I really can't buy the 'Rhaegar wouldn't tell anyone' approach. He is the Prince of Dragonstone, and he wields some power again after his return (what power exactly is unclear, but his position seems to be better than around the time of Harrenhal). Everyone knows that he has abducted Lyanna. If he ran away - and was not forced to hide from Aerys - then everyone would want to know why he had taken her, where he had been, why Lyanna wasn't with, whether they were married, or whether she was with child. And considering that Rhaegar had been back again and was, presumably, not intending to run away again or die, there wouldn't have been no reason to keep his actions a secret. I don't say he necessarily told his father exactly where she was - although that is also a possibility if the sole reason why she did not accompany him was because of her pregnancy.

We have seen that grandchildren aren't really the thing you present to Aerys to win his favor, so waiting for a child from Lyanna isn't something that rings right with me there. A more aggressive approach would make more sense. A father-son conversation could also work, if they had reconciled, or even the 'Prophecy demanded it' trump card. If Rhaegar went to the Ghost and received a prophecy from her, that could be enough to get through to Aerys. After all, he and Rhaella had been married because of a similar prophecy, and a good explanation for their attempts to have more children together - rather than Aerys putting aside Rhaella and take a different wife - is that they wanted to fulfill the prophecy, believing that Rhaegar, like Aegon later on, needed a brother.

[Mithras]

If Rhaegar had an important change of mind about TPTWP, he could have sent a message to Aemon. We know that they were communicating about this subject.

[SFDanny]

Of course, thats the point. It Yandel really does know, then Varys, Tywin, Littlefinger and anyone who gives a shit knows.

 
And I just can't buy that none of them have even a sniff of R+L=J if they know that the 3KG were all together with Lyanna at the ToJ.

 

I think we have clearly delineated where our differences are, so let me just end my thoughts on this with agreeing with you on the above. I do think that, no matter how well conceived Ned's cover story is, and I think it's very good given the circumstances, at least Varys will have suspicions about R+L=J. I've pointed to in the past both to Cersei's remarks to Ned in the godswood about raping a dornish peasant, and to Stannis's remarks to Jon about his being born to a fishwife as possible examples of the two of them hearing reports by Varys about Ned's travels. I think Varys would, and probably did, investigate Ned's story to see if he could use it for his advantage. I just don't think he can find any proof to show to Robert that his closer-than-a-brother best friend is lying to him. One just doesn't go before Robert and call Ned a traitor and a liar and not fear the consequences, anymore than one just walks into Mordor :eek: . Especially if one starts out as a loathsome and barely tolerated creature in the new King's eyes. As long as the Daynes and Wylla back up Ned's story, there is no percentage in Varys laying suspicions before Robert about Ned.

 

As always, corbon, thanks for the discussion.

[Lord Varys]

SFDanny,

 

the Varys question there is whether Varys actually would have endangered the life of Rhaegar's son if he had figured out who Jon was? I don't know that, but considering that a child looking like Lyanna/Ned Stark wouldn't be of any use in his Targaryen plans there is good chance that he wouldn't have done anything about. Nothing suggests that he ever wanted to drive a wedge between Robert and Ned. In fact, I still have the feeling Varys wanted to recruit Ned for his cause as soon as his game began. And by that time Robert himself, and not Ned would have to be removed.

[Mithras]

Ned could not get away with technical truths at the time of reunion with Robert like he tried to do in later years. He must have blatantly lied about Jon and Lyanna.

 

It would be really stupid if he told that Lyanna died in childbirth and the baby was stillborn while bringing Jon as his bastard all of a sudden. In that case, he could have simply told everyone that Jon is the bastard son of Lyanna and one of the KG’s there (Oswell would be the best candidate for that purpose).

[Avalatis]

snip

 

I agree with the aspect that Ned uses omission to hide truths. He isn't a liar. But he has no problem not correcting others who are wrong.

 

But as for why 3 KG were with Lyanna? They were ordered there. Martin has stated this as well from a SSM, it's not a mind blowing revelation. Everyone will be quite aware of this, especially Varys. Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar when he abducted Lyanna. Hightower is sent to find Rhaegar. Rhaegar returns without any of them. You would think someone would wonder or ask Rhaegar: "Where are the 3 Kingsguard". But even if they did not, the logical assumption is that he posted them to guard his mistress who didn't return with him.

 

Jaime doesn't think they ever deserted. As his view of Hightower doesn't have any hint of "well he bailed at the end so he's a hypocrite".

 

Ned lost 5 of his men. He didn't just duel Dayne one and one and then returned his sword to Starfall. He has 5 men dead and he buried them at the TOJ. Which of course the families would demand to know where they had been buried. People would also wonder how incompetent Ned was that he last 5 men taking down Dayne. While Dayne was an amazing swordsmen, against 2 or more foes with a competent commander it is nearly impossible for him to kill more than one man.

 

It makes more sense that against 3 Kingsguard who have trained with each other for years that Ned's superior 7v3 advantage would have ended with 5 dead men.

 

I just don't see why it is necessary for Ned to lie about killing the Hightower and Whent or even the location of their deaths (as where they were buried can be found).

 

As with my other post on this subject Ned could have easily omitted details of the deaths that make it certain no one would put together that Jon was there.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

 

Again, the details of how Ned defeated AD is not really important to unraveling any mystery, but I still maintain that the nature of his description strongly indicates some overt assistance from HR in the battle -- but I agree that it could be something like a distraction and not skinchanging. I have always thought the skinchanging theory possible but a bit over the top and less likely.

 

As to the issue of "Rhaegar would not tell about the pregnancy" -- I put it back on you. Why would he tell? Who would ask? Who would Rhaegar want to tell? For what purpose? Rhaegar stayed away for a long time -- and for a reason. Only the risk of the Targs losing the war seems to have been enough to get Rhaegar back to KL. Just because he is brought back to lead the big battle does not mean that all of a sudden Rhaegar trusts anyone he did not previously trust (Aerys, for example). Rhaegar has more important matters to tend to in preparing for battle and will be in a better position to address the issue of his child with Lyanna after he wins at the Trident (as he seems to assume will happen). So I am baffled why you think it odd he would not tell anyone. Personally, I would find it quite odd and unlikely that he would tell anyone (except maybe Elia if she had been in on the whole thing involving Lyanna, but under those circumstances, she would not tell anyone else, not that I am suggesting that Elia was in on the whole thing -- but if she were . . . ).

[Avalatis]

Ned could not get away with technical truths at the time of reunion with Robert like he tried to do in later years. He must have blatantly lied about Jon and Lyanna.

 

It would be really stupid if he told that Lyanna died in childbirth and the baby was stillborn while bringing Jon as his bastard all of a sudden. In that case, he could have simply told everyone that Jon is the bastard son of Lyanna and one of the KG’s there (Oswell would be the best candidate for that purpose).

 

If he told Robert that she had died from a fever it isn't a lie. He just omitted the reason she had a fever.

[Mithras]

If he told Robert that she had died from a fever it isn't a lie. He just omitted the reason she had a fever.

 

Exactly. There is no reason to mention childbirth and every reason to take the eyes away from Jon.

[Faceless Man Friday]

I don't mean to interrupt the current topic but since we have the attention of members who have given this issue much thought I would like to get your thoughts on something that has been bothering me.  From the text it appears that after all the dying was done, only Howland, Ned and possibly Baby Jon were left alive at the TOJ.  I know there has been speculation that there might have been one or more other people there too but that is irrelevant to my question.  It is clear there was not an army there or sizable group of able bodied men.  Well if that is the case, how in seven hells did they bring the TOJ down to bury the dead in its rubble?  My guess is the answer to that question may also explain how Howland saved Ned's life.  What do you think?

[Avalatis]

I don't mean to interrupt the current topic but since we have the attention of members who have given this issue much thought I would like to get your thoughts on something that has been bothering me.  From the text it appears that after all the dying was done, only Howland, Ned and possibly Baby Jon were left alive at the TOJ.  I know there has been speculation that there might have been one or more other people there too but that is irrelevant to my question.  It is clear there was not an army there or sizable group of able bodied men.  Well if that is the case, how in seven hells did they bring the TOJ down to bury the dead in its rubble?  My guess is the answer to that question may also explain how Howland saved Ned's life.  What do you think?

 

There is reason to think that Ned and his companions were mounted, which means they had 7 horses. There is also reason to believe there were additional horses at the tower (such as what Hightower rode in on).

 

The TOJ was mentioned as being somewhat of a ruin. If its support beams were set fire along with using the horses they could have toppled the structure. The tower didn't necessarily have to be big.

[SFDanny]

I don't mean to interrupt the current topic but since we have the attention of members who have given this issue much thought I would like to get your thoughts on something that has been bothering me.  From the text it appears that after all the dying was done, only Howland, Ned and possibly Baby Jon were left alive at the TOJ.  I know there has been speculation that there might have been one or more other people there too but that is irrelevant to my question.  It is clear there was not an army there or sizable group of able bodied men.  Well if that is the case, how in seven hells did they bring the TOJ down to bury the dead in its rubble?  My guess is the answer to that question may also explain how Howland saved Ned's life.  What do you think?

My guess is rather more mundane than you imply. I think it is by a use of a combination of fire and horsepower. Fire to gut the internal supports and the use of of horses - at least seven from Ned's party and likely more from those who were already at the tower when Ned arrives. Howland and Ned combined with whoever is left alive at the tower to make the "they" who find Ned holding Lyanna's dead body can accomplish this using fire and horsepower.
Edit: I see Avalatis ninja'd me! I agree with him on this one.

[Sly Wren]

I don't mean to interrupt the current topic but since we have the attention of members who have given this issue much thought I would like to get your thoughts on something that has been bothering me.  From the text it appears that after all the dying was done, only Howland, Ned and possibly Baby Jon were left alive at the TOJ.  I know there has been speculation that there might have been one or more other people there too but that is irrelevant to my question.  It is clear there was not an army there or sizable group of able bodied men.  Well if that is the case, how in seven hells did they bring the TOJ down to bury the dead in its rubble?  My guess is the answer to that question may also explain how Howland saved Ned's life.  What do you think?

An excellent question. Text doesn't say. Could Ned have had gear to use with his horses that helped him and Howland pull down a tower sturdy enough to house a woman and/or baby (and possible staff), even after Ned and Howland had just been through a probably grueling fight to the death and are now in the middle of a mountain pass with a new baby and/or dead woman? Absolutely. The gaps in the text are big enough to allow that.

 

But text also never says anyone is in the tower. Never says the KG were guarding the tower or staying at the tower. Just that they are there when Ned and Co. ride up.

 

So, could Ned and Co. have fought the KG to the death, then pulled down very dilapidated tower, then ridden elsewhere to find Lyanna and Jon--say, in a place with a rose garden big enough to keep the room she died in smelling of blood and roses--perhaps finding her because Arthur told Ned where she was? Yup. Text allows for that, too.

 

And Rhaegar and Lyanna can easily be Jon's parents regardless of which interp you choose.