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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.153

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LV,
 
Agree on the trauma brought on by Lyanna, because I do think the fact that it is mentioned he is wearing a wolf skin pelt, makes me think he remembers Lyanna very well, and his sentiments for her are there for all to see draped around his shoulders, skinned and dead like a trophy.
 
Why does he need a wolk skin pelt where he is? Its fur.
 
I also agree that Rhaegar and Elia probably were not the best for each other by nature. One is sickly and probably can only take care of herself emotionally, and Rhaegar is melancholy, not the best to uplift Elia.
 
 
As one of the companions.
 
I also agree he may have been part of Lyanna entourage, but I speculate that ironically he may have tried to be the voice of reason, no matter his motivations, trying to stop Rhaegar, there was a argument, and he angrily rode away, maybe along with a few others.
 
 
 
Question:
 
Do we know how long Lyanna was the TOJ before she became pregnant?


This is really a over stretch here.
Do you mean Jon wore a wolf skin jacket because he hated lyanna so much that he wanted to literally wear a "wolf" skin?

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Question:
 
Do we know how long Lyanna was the TOJ before she became pregnant?

To answer that question we'd need to know when Lyanna arrived at the tower and when exactly Jon was born. Seeing as we know neither for certain (we might be able to estimate Jon's nameday if we assume that the one mentioned is the true one, and not a lie as told by Ned), it is a bit difficult to say.

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Rhaenys,

 

that could be, and I remember putting something like that forth once upon a time. But then, it would be awfully convenient/strange if Rhaegar wouldn't trust those close companions of his with his plans on a journey he took them with. There is a possibility that Jon would have been opposed to the Lyanna abduction and marriage, but this doesn't mean he didn't tag along for that. And if Connington went along with Rhaegar doing then it is really strange to assume that Aerys would just take him into his confidence after he returned to KL and couldn't give him a good explanation. Connington succeeding in convincing Aerys' fears that his sons and the Starks had been conspiring against him - after the Rebellion had already begun, of course - would make more sense than Connington just hanging out in KL convincing Aerys to name him Hand if he was incapable of giving Aerys a satisfactory answer about his son's intentions. And that would more or less have been the scenario if Jon had returned to KL not knowing what Rhaegar was going to do with Lyanna.

 

It is actually more or less the 'companions issue' that convinced me that Rhaegar and Lyanna's public or semipublic marriage was what forced them to go into hiding. One could even get a convincing narrative why Connington and Myles Mooton returned to KL but Rhaegar stayed away. Say, all the companions were with Rhaegar and Lyann after their marriage wherever that was. Once the news about Brandon and Rickard reach them both (and especially Lyanna) are horrified. With Aerys calling for Rhaegar's head, too (or perhaps only intending to arrest him and Lyanna) they can't go to KL. But Rhaegar can send his friends to try to dissuade the situation, friends who are not bound to obey Aerys the same way the Kingsguard would. Explaining why Mooton and Connington were with Aerys at least part of the war. And one expects that Jon really had one Aerys' ear by the time he was named Hand, or else he wouldn't have been appointed Hand.

 

We cannot make any or much predictions about the time at the tower. I inclined to believe they didn't spend much time there, since, you know, it is a tower in the wild. What the hell would be the point? And it cannot have possibly been their destination unless Rhaegar or Arthur knew about that special tower.

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As to Elia not matching Rhaegar's spirit:

 

You seemed to have missed the point I made. I don't know if that is intentional or not, as you often do this. Elia was sickly and couldn't live up to Rhaegar's needs (more children). Jon makes a point of this as do other characters.

 

 

But in general the fact that Connington most likely was with Rhaegar in the Riverlands is actually a strong clue that whatever was going on with

 

Assuming there was a plan to abduct Lyanna to begin with and assuming Rhaegar actually told Jon. A lot of assumptions here. Then you have to assume that Jon wasn't good at keeping secrets.

 

I tend to agree with Lord Varys here. JonCon being one of the six companions is a reasonable conclusion to draw. The likes of JonCon, Jaime and Barristan certainly know more than what they have let on so far. Barristan and/or Jaime can fill the reader in on the goings on in KL between the Battle of the Bells and The Trident; like what story did Rhaegar provide concerning his whereabouts, his doings, and why Hightower did not return to KL with him. I doubt Rhaegar simply stayed silent on all of this. JonCon can provide more insight on what occurred between Harrenhal and his exile. Howland Reed can fill us in on the details at the ToJ and after. I'd be pretty disappointed if too much of the RLJ stuff is revealed via weirwood visions and such, especially when we have at least four characters -- three being povs -- that can provide firsthand accounts.

 

I also think he rode out with Rhaegar from Dragonstone. That doesn't mean they didn't part ways or that it was a part of a plan initially to abduct Lyanna.

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I also think he rode out with Rhaegar from Dragonstone. That doesn't mean they didn't part ways or that it was a part of a plan initially to abduct Lyanna.

 

I'm actually of the opinion that there was no plan to abduct Lyanna. I think that JonCon knows alot more than he has currently revealed. Basically, we have three povs (JonCon, Barristan and Jaime) and two non-povs (Howland and Wylla) that can fill in all the blanks for us.

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I'm actually of the opinion that there was no plan to abduct Lyanna. I think that JonCon knows alot more than he has currently revealed. Basically, we have three povs (JonCon, Barristan and Jaime) and two non-povs (Howland and Wylla) that can fill in all the blanks for us.

While I can see Barristan keeping this information to himself, would JonCon or Jaime really do so? If they know more about Rhaegar and Lyanna, why wouldn't they have leaked the information? Now we know that Howland and Wylla basically know everything that happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. So it should not be a surprise that they have not been seen by the readers yet. They simply know too much. Which is why I tend to doubt that JonCon or Jaime know anything relevant.

 

Even if JonCon was with Rhaegar when he first set out -- and even if he was with Rhaegar when the "came upon" Lyanna, I think most likely JonCon was not there for any of the action thereafter. He certainly did not know they went to ToJ, so he probably would not have been there for a wedding either. Once Rhaegar was going to take action that could cause problems for participants, I suspect he sent everyone other that Dayne and Whent away.

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This is really a over stretch here.
Do you mean Jon wore a wolf skin jacket because he hated lyanna so much that he wanted to literally wear a "wolf" skin?

No, it's not a stretch, and yes, I mean EXACTLY that he wore a wolf skin, or pelt as a indication of what he might have liked done to Lyanna.

You DON'T think that his not remembering the big elephant in the room, Lyanna, isn't a possible sign he doesn't want to remember her because it hurts?


EDIT: Wolf Skin Pelt

http://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/5614981/il_570xN.341583005.jpg

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While I can see Barristan keeping this information to himself, would JonCon or Jaime really do so? If they know more about Rhaegar and Lyanna, why wouldn't they have leaked the information? Now we know that Howland and Wylla basically know everything that happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. So it should not be a surprise that they have not been seen by the readers yet. They simply know too much. Which is why I tend to doubt that JonCon or Jaime know anything relevant.

 

Even if JonCon was with Rhaegar when he first set out -- and even if he was with Rhaegar when the "came upon" Lyanna, I think most likely JonCon was not there for any of the action thereafter. He certainly did not know they went to ToJ, so he probably would not have been there for a wedding either. Once Rhaegar was going to take action that could cause problems for participants, I suspect he sent everyone other that Dayne and Whent away.

 

The simple answer: Martin was not ready to reveal the information. Jaime has spoken about Aerys saying that the rebellion was the greatest threat to the Targ dynasty post Stony Sept, he has spoken about Brandon and Rickards deaths, Chelstead etc. yet says nothing about Hightowers mission to find Rhaegar, nothing about why Hightower did not return, nothing about what the court knew concerning Rhaegar and Lyanna (the stuff about rumours of L&R being somewhere in the south appears only in the app). Barristan has been cagey as well. If JonCon was one of the companions, he can fill us in on why Rhaegar rode to the Riverlands in the first place, what happened when L&R come across one another. Why waste these three povs by having them possess no knowledge when these three could potentially fill in alot of blanks? How else would Martin reveal what was going on in Rhaegars camp between Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction as well as the situation in KL between R&L going MIA and The Trident?

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Avalatis,

 

well, I've just reread the section in question. Jon clearly states that Elia was never worthy of him since she was frail and sickly, 'and childbirth only left her weaker'. He doesn't mention anything about not liking her because she didn't give Rhaegar many children, nor does he imply that this was the reason why he did not like her. In fact, he thinks about that one Haldon presses him to arrange a marriage for Aegon, heavily indicating that the thought of a married Rhaegar isn't something Jon enjoyed and looked forward to - and he seems to have transferred that to Aegon now.

 

Kevan is the one, I think, who thought Rhaegar wanted sons and should thus have married Cersei rather than Elia.

 

What we know is that Rhaegar went to Riverlands, and it also seems to be implied that Harrenhal/Lyanna wasn't the original destination of their journey - but we can't conclude from that that Jon - if he was with Rhaegar - wasn't part of the abduction team as well. We simply do not know. I'm also inclined to believe that there was no abduction plan - but at this point I'm more in favor of prophecy changing the plan (in the aftermath of a meeting with the Ghost) than of Rhaegar making a rash decision after a chance meeting on the road. The Ghost talk must not necessarily have revealed stuff or changed Rhaegar's view on the promised prince, it could have been enough that he got some insight into his personal destiny.

Going with Jon keeping secrets about Rhaegar from Aerys is strange if he we consider that he was his Hand. At that time Jon would have wanted to prove himself to his king as much as to his silver prince, although in his memory only his silver prince survives.

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No, it's not a stretch, and yes, I mean EXACTLY that he wore a wolf skin, or pelt as a indication of what he might have liked done to Lyanna.

You DON'T think that his not remembering the big elephant in the room, Lyanna, isn't a possible sign he doesn't want to remember her because it hurts?


I know you are a r/l romantic shipper, but this indeed shocked me. He did not have any comments on lyanna because grrm did not want reveal that yet. And also he simply did not know her as much as elia. He and Elia probably met frequently during these two three years. He only saw Lyanna in HH likely.
If wolf skin means lyanna, then jon should also has a dragon something with him to memorize his love in rhaegar, which is apparently more important for him 

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