R+L=J v.153

[Avalatis]

There is something special to the Targaryen bloodline which contains 'the blood of the dragon' in an apparent 'literal sense'. But the Starks aren't 'ice' in the same sense the Targaryens are 'fire' - and even if they were, what would the Others then be? Even colder ice? The Starks are special because of their skinchanging abilities, not because of an overall literal connection to ice - they don't have ice spiders as pets like the Targaryens have dragons, for instance. And they don't show any affinity to ice the same way the Targaryens show an affinity to fire.

 

A 'love song'-like sub-theme is possible, both between Rhaegar and Lyanna in retrospect as well as between Dany and Jon in the future since Jon Snow doesn't have a single Targaryen quality or feature in evidence as far as I remember (not the hair, not the eyes, and no mental instability) so he may actually never identify as a Targaryen. But that would then only be secondary or tertiary aspect of the series' title, not the core meaning. That should be the great conflict between ice and fire, that is between the Others and warm-blooded humanity, which may use their fair share of fire magic and dragonflame to deal with them.

 

The Starks claim their family started with Brandon the Builder who created a big wall of ice (supposedly). They live in the North, their family sword is called Ice, and their words are "winter is coming". A Song of Ice and Fire is perhaps dealing with the magical influences of Ice and Fire. Targaryens magic is rooted in "fire" (well blood magic which somehow made them bind with dragons). Starks "magic" will be rooted in ice (though we have seen no manifestation of this). Targaryen's bind with dragons, Starks bind with dire wolves. I'm not sure what animal companion would be best represent ice, maybe polar bears or penguins? Both of those would be somewhat of a nusance to work into the story.

 

What are the others then? An imbalance towards ice, perhaps even related to the Starks and Brandon the builder. The Doom of Valaria might have been something similar.

 

As for the Song of Ice and Fire I asked that in the last thread with few responses to it. I think there is a strong sense that it will mean a restoration of balance between the opposing magics of fire and ice. This could mean an end of the crazy seasons they have.

[Mithras]

Wow, moving really fast these days. Did I miss anything important in the previous thread?

 

I checked the last thread only a single time and saw Lord Varys speculating about polygamy.

 

I thought I didnot miss much :D

[Lord Varys]

Sly Wren,

 

that is why I'm arguing that the big twist about the prophetic hero will turn out that there will indeed not be only one, but three. Those dragon head guys that are apparently also part of Rhaegar's version of the prophecy. And considering the scope of the story their main purpose should be to come together and unite humanity against the Others - not necessarily single-handedly defeating them (or even personally confronting them). That could do other more quest-like heroes like, say, Bran, Arya, Samwell, Brienne, or Jaime (if some secret Frodo-like mission into the Land of Always Winter is going to come).

 

That would also fit with the Rhoynish version of the tale of the Long Night which speaks of all the lesser gods forming an alliance and singing a magical song. If that's not a very good hint then I don't know what is. Not to mention that the POV structure in itself as suggests something like that. We have important characters, and all their deeds (or at least the deeds of those that survive until the final climax) should figure into the overall story.

 

And we should always keep in mind that every good author including stuff like prophecies does not only include 'prophetic twists' but also elements that aren't part of any ancient prophecy whatsoever. Bran is especially interesting in that regard since there is no prophecy element obviously referring to him yet he seems to be destined to become the most powerful character in this story. Prophesied hero(es) or not, he may play the most important role of all.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

To MtnLion from the previous thread:

A very educated person, son of the Warden of the North, a Lord Paramount, said "by all the laws I know a son (Aegon) comes before his uncle (Viserys)." The actual line after Aerys is Rhaegar, Aegon, any other of Rhaegar's male offspring; eldest first, then Viserys.

Usually, yes. Unless the head of House decides otherwise.

Unless that one man is Barristan or Arthur or Jaime, eh? Barristan remained incognito until he revealed his identity to Daenerys. Hightower wouldn't be able to travel incognito from King's Landing to the Prince's Pass, with however many waypoints in between? He couldn't fight against two or three, when Barristan, Jaime, and Arthur are said to cut down a dozen at a time, by themselves? Please, all of your twisting and turning is to support an additional person, which we have no hint of, including travelling alone. It is reasonable for Hightower to be sent to find a secret location, and that he would do it by himself. There is no indication that any other men were at the tower of joy when Ned arrived. All eight cairns are accounted for, and only two men left, according to a recent statement from GRRM.

Hold it right there.

First, I am not trying to add any people to the tower. I am saying that stating that Hightower must have travelled alone, or stating that Whent and Dayne would have to have accompanied Rhaegar to KL, is nowhere stated, and that there are other ways for Rhaegar to have returned to KL.

I never said that anyone who potentially accompanied Hightower to ToJ remained there. So why you feel the need to count the eight cairns with the two survivors, I don't know.

When I read about Hightower being send to find Rhaegar, I see a man on a royal mission, one who must not fail, and thus, one who might have had some people with him.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

 

if the Others could procreate like you and then they should have no need for Craster's sons, right? But the possibility that they 'could have Others' blood' doesn't make it likely or the case. That is your usual error. Just because you have a thought doesn't mean that George had the same (or cares).

 

But even if the Others were distant cousins of the Starks, they are quite obviously not remotely alike right now. Which completely destroys any concept of similarity or kinship the author could want to introduce this way.

 

Ned is just accustomed to the climate in Winterfell since he is born there. That doesn't mean he has special powers.

 

Avalatis,

 

I see the Starks as owning the cold in the sense that they have learned to live or survive in it. But they are not its master. They are not ice, but they try to trick other people into believing that they are because that makes them appear more intimidating. 'Winter is coming' is a warning from winter which is death. Winter is death, and the Northmen know that. And the Others are even worse.

 

I expect the season crisis be resolved, but my guess is that there is no real fire-ice imbalance but rather an 'ice agenda' by the Others who want to transform the world into their icy paradise, eradicating any other sentient life in the process. To challenge the Others during the Long Night the Children and humanity may have been forced to tap into certain fire spells that caused the freak season in the process/aftermath of whatever happened at the end of the War for the Dawn. If the Others are finally defeated that should no longer be necessary and things should go back to normal.

 

Valyria or dragons don't play in the same league magically as the Others and the Long Night. The Others seem to want to kill everyone and transform the world into a sunless icy wasteland, the Valyrians just built a huge empire on dragonflame.

 

Rhaenys,

 

reading ML is fun. Discussing him not so much. You won't get anywhere on that front.

[MtnLion]

To MtnLion from the previous thread:
Usually, yes. Unless the head of House decides otherwise.

But, we have been here, before. Aerys did not name Viserys his heir. Aerys did not otherwise remove Aegon from succession.

Hold it right there.

First, I am not trying to add any people to the tower. I am saying that stating that Hightower must have travelled alone, or stating that Whent and Dayne would have to have accompanied Rhaegar to KL, is nowhere stated, and that there are other ways for Rhaegar to have returned to KL.

I never said that anyone who potentially accompanied Hightower to ToJ remained there. So why you feel the need to count the eight cairns with the two survivors, I don't know.

When I read about Hightower being send to find Rhaegar, I see a man on a royal mission, one who must not fail, and thus, one who might have had some people with him.

Or being Kingsguard know that he can perform the mission better on his own. I am saying that you need to provide some evidence to support your idea, or it is just your version. I showed why there was no other person, show your reason for finding that there has to be another person.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But, we have been here, before. Aerys did not name Viserys his heir. Aerys did not otherwise remove Aegon from succession.
Or being Kingsguard know that he can perform the mission better on his own.

The point remains that Viserys, by historical account, is called Aerys' heir while Aegon is mentioned to still be alive. That's something that cannot simply be ignored. Just as Bran cannot have been called Eddard Starks heir while at the same time mentioning how Robb is still alive.

He might have travelled alone. I've said that. but that doesn't make it the only logical course, and thus should not be treated as a fact until there is any confirmation.

[Avalatis]

Avalatis,

 

I see the Starks as owning the cold in the sense that they have learned to live or survive in it. But they are not its master. They are not ice, but they try to trick other people into believing that they are because that makes them appear more intimidating. 'Winter is coming' is a warning from winter which is death. Winter is death, and the Northmen know that. And the Others are even worse.

 

You were trying to differentiate between the specialness of Targaryens vs. Starks. The Targaryen's are not masters of fire, they haven't even had dragons for over a century. Dany who has just hatched her dragons has no control over them, much less a mastery. Melsandre seems to have more mastery of fire than the Targaryens.

 

 

I expect the season crisis be resolved, but my guess is that there is no real fire-ice imbalance but rather an 'ice agenda' by the Others who want to transform the world into their icy paradise, eradicating any other sentient life in the process. To challenge the Others during the Long Night the Children and humanity may have been forced to tap into certain fire spells that caused the freak season in the process/aftermath of whatever happened at the end of the War for the Dawn. If the Others are finally defeated that should no longer be necessary and things should go back to normal.

 

I was comparing the Others to the "Doom" that destroyed Valyria, not to the Valyrians themselves. The grey scale epidemic might even be tied to that imbalance of magic (similar to the walking dead from the others). It's a matter of waning and peaking influences.

 

 

Valyria or dragons don't play in the same league magically as the Others and the Long Night. The Others seem to want to kill everyone and transform the world into a sunless icy wasteland, the Valyrians just built a huge empire on dragonflame.

 

No, but they play in the same league as Brandon the builder who made a giant wall of ice and other great structures. The doom is fire going too far, the others and the long night is ice going too far.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I am saying that you need to provide some evidence to support your idea, or it is just your version. I showed why there was no other person, show your reason for finding that there has to be another person.

I never said Hightower took people with him who then remained at the tower. I said he might have been accompanied by people who then accompanied Rhaegar back to KL.

There would be no one additional be at the tower when Ned arrives. I stated that before, quite clearly.

[Sly Wren]

Sly Wren,

 

that is why I'm arguing that the big twist about the prophetic hero will turn out that there will indeed not be only one, but three. Those dragon head guys that are apparently also part of Rhaegar's version of the prophecy. And considering the scope of the story their main purpose should be to come together and unite humanity against the Others - not necessarily single-handedly defeating them (or even personally confronting them). That could do other more quest-like heroes like, say, Bran, Arya, Samwell, Brienne, or Jaime (if some secret Frodo-like mission into the Land of Always Winter is going to come).

 

That would also fit with the Rhoynish version of the tale of the Long Night which speaks of all the lesser gods forming an alliance and singing a magical song. If that's not a very good hint then I don't know what is. Not to mention that the POV structure in itself as suggests something like that. We have important characters, and all their deeds (or at least the deeds of those that survive until the final climax) should figure into the overall story.

 

And we should always keep in mind that every good author including stuff like prophecies does not only include 'prophetic twists' but also elements that aren't part of any ancient prophecy whatsoever. Bran is especially interesting in that regard since there is no prophecy element obviously referring to him yet he seems to be destined to become the most powerful character in this story. Prophesied hero(es) or not, he may play the most important role of all.

The idea of the prophetic hero being part of a trio could work well.

 

And thank you for bringing up the Rhoynish version. That had fallen out of my head. Puts me in mind both of Martin's idea for the final title (A Time for Wolves) and the collective of the old gods in the weirwoods. The Stark kids are tied together via those wolves. Even Sansa has had at least one dream about Lady after she died. Granted, we all dream about what we've lost, but still. 

 

Pull in Bran--about whom I agree with you entirely. He is both in a position to be very powerful and very dangerous (rather like Arya). But, despite his over-warging, and dominating other wolves when he's warging (again like Arya), and his stubbornness (like most Starks)--he's still a Stark. And tied to his wolf. Like Jon, Arya, and even Sansa. Am thinking he's in a position to unify/communicate with all of them. And they could "sing" together. They are already allied. Just need to re-unify. 

 

Maybe.

[purple-eyes]

 I'm not sure what animal companion would be best represent ice, maybe polar bears or penguins? Both of those would be somewhat of a nusance to work into the story.

 

 

 

polar bear sounds cool. kind of hard to maintain though.

[purple-eyes]

To MtnLion from the previous thread:
Usually, yes. Unless the head of House decides otherwise.

Hold it right there.

First, I am not trying to add any people to the tower. I am saying that stating that Hightower must have travelled alone, or stating that Whent and Dayne would have to have accompanied Rhaegar to KL, is nowhere stated, and that there are other ways for Rhaegar to have returned to KL.

I never said that anyone who potentially accompanied Hightower to ToJ remained there. So why you feel the need to count the eight cairns with the two survivors, I don't know.

When I read about Hightower being send to find Rhaegar, I see a man on a royal mission, one who must not fail, and thus, one who might have had some people with him.

 

i can see hightower had a group with him and then rhaegar came back with that small group but left three KG in TOJ.

they needed to cross the warzone, right?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@purple-eyes from the previous thread:

One question here, I can understand Rhaegar thought Argon was the PTWP by the shooting star on his conceiving night.
But why Rhaegar thought Aegon's song is song of ice and fire?
Neither him nor Elia had anything to do with ice.
Or he read in the book that the PTWP would have a song of ice and fire?

That depends on Rhaegars interpretation of the song, and I agree with Lord Varys that it most likely, imo, refers to the war against the Others. If it is the Promised Prince who needs to defeat the Others, the battle/war will be his 'song', in a way.

[Selena]

I never said Hightower took people with him who then remained at the tower. I said he might have been accompanied by people who then accompanied Rhaegar back to KL.

 

 

this makes perfect sense to me.. Hightowers misson may have been "Bring Rhaegar back, willingly or otherwise"  so he would have gone prepared for "otherwise". Rhaegar went willingly, escorted by the men with Hightower, on the condition that Hightower stayed at ToJ.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 
i can see hightower had a group with him and then rhaegar came back with that small group but left three KG in TOJ.
they needed to cross the warzone, right?

Exactly. I don't think this scenario can be discarded just yet.

[purple-eyes]

@purple-eyes from the previous thread:

That depends on Rhaegars interpretation of the song, and I agree with Lord Varys that it most likely, imo, refers to the war against the Others. If it is the Promised Prince who needs to defeat the Others, the battle/war will be his 'song', in a way.

 

true. I agree. 

 

Then what is the relationship with TPWP with "dragon has three heads"?

 

Gee, how many prophecies Rhaegar had read?

"The prince was going to have two companions and they are called three heads of dragon? "

Was he thinking Aegon as TPWP and then changed his mind to believe Jon is the TPWP with the song?

Or he still thought Aegon as TPWP and thought Jon would be a companion for Aegon?

Did he think Martell as a house of sunspear (fire) and Stark as a house of winterfell (ice) so he thought Aegon would have a song of ice (stark sister) and fire (Dornish sister)?

 

Really, Rhaegar needs to say something clear. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

@purple-eyes from the previous thread:

That depends on Rhaegars interpretation of the song, and I agree with Lord Varys that it most likely, imo, refers to the war against the Others. If it is the Promised Prince who needs to defeat the Others, the battle/war will be his 'song', in a way.

What evidence is there that Rhaegar knew that TPTWP had anything to do with defeating the Others? I am not aware that Rhaegar knew the Others would return or had anything to do with the Song. As I noted above, a Song in the context of what Rhaegar was saying is like an epic poem. All we know is that for some reason, Rhaegar believed that the "song" (i.e., the epic poem that would be written about the heroics of TPTWP) would be the song of ice and fire (and by the way, Rhaegar said "the" not "a" song of ice and fire). I think it is logical to conclude that Rhaegar believed this because he read it as part of his research into the prophecy -- but we cannot be 100% certain (although no other possibility seems plausible). 

But from the point of view of the readers -- we are able to understand that ASOIAF means many other things as well. Almost certainly GRRM intends multiple layers and meanings regarding the series title.

[purple-eyes]

What evidence is there that Rhaegar knew that TPTWP had anything to do with defeating the Others? I am not aware that Rhaegar knew the Others would return or had anything to do with the Song. As I noted above, a Song in the context of what Rhaegar was saying is like an epic poem. All we know is that for some reason, Rhaegar believed that the "song" (i.e., the epic poem that would be written about the heroics of TPTWP) would be the song of ice and fire (and by the way, Rhaegar said "the" not "a" song of ice and fire). I think it is logical to conclude that Rhaegar believed this because he read it as part of his research into the prophecy -- but we cannot be 100% certain (although no other possibility seems plausible). 

But from the point of view of the readers -- we are able to understand that ASOIAF means many other things as well. Almost certainly GRRM intends multiple layers and meanings regarding the series title.

 

Maybe GRRM will give us a literal song of ice and fire at the end of the series. 

Which is also the one Rhaegar happened to read. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

Maybe GRRM will give us a literal song of ice and fire at the end of the series. 

Which is also the one Rhaegar happened to read. 

I doubt Rhaegar read the song -- that would have given him way too much information -- more than he seems to have. I suspect all the reports of the prophecy included were the title of the song -- not the song itself.  As to GRRM providing the song -- he is in the process of doing so -- 7 novels (maybe more) are the song of ice and fire (or at least a song of ice and fire).

[purple-eyes]

I doubt Rhaegar read the song -- that would have given him way too much information -- more than he seems to have. I suspect all the reports of the prophecy included were the title of the song -- not the song itself.  As to GRRM providing the song -- he is in the process of doing so -- 7 novels (maybe more) are the song of ice and fire (or at least a song of ice and fire).

 

Rhaegar was certainly driven by prophecy. 

After reading all the threads, I started to believe that politics did not play any part in his actions. 

Even the HH is also a event he joined for his prophecy, not politics.