Fool's Quest

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Hobb does try to make it possible to jump in at any of the trilogies without having read the preceding trilogy/series (she mentioned a few times on social media that this was giving her trouble re; Kelsingra and having it make sense without the Rain Wilds) but Hobbs books are very big on character and I just don't think you would get anywhere near as much enjoyment from them without the investment in the characters that comes from reading all of the books. I mean, even those who have read them all have expressed some exasperation with Fitz and his decisions and obliviousness in the last two books, and I imagine that would be even more irritating to a newcomer to the series

I've just finished the Tawny Man Trilogy.  I think one could certainly enjoy it without having read the Liveships Trilogy, but there are some things that wouldn't make much sense such as

Fitz and Dutiful finding themselves on Others Island after travelling through the skill pillar

  I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone starting the Tawny Man trilogy without having read the Farseer Trilogy first.

Overall, I enjoyed the Tawny Man Trilogy, but considerably less than I did either Farseer or Liveships.  I thought that the middle book, The Golden Fool dragged considerably.

 

[peterbound]

I've never got the 'need' for dragons either.  They seem like dicks.  More like cats with wings and acid.  Not sure why their presence is necessary in the books other than some sort of connection to magic?  

[Nails77]

I had never given much thought to the question of "why is the Fool convinced that dragons are necessary?" but it's a good one.  They do often act like petulant children (love the "cats with wings and acid" description).

Maybe it does have something to do with magic remaining in the world.  My guess would be that as someone stated, humans have magic only because it was bestowed on them at some point in the past by dragons.  Dragons seem to get their strength for magic from the liquid skill, and since that liquid skill is just too much for a human to handle directly, maybe for humans to continue to live with magic, they must have dragons as the conduit to it.  Or maybe not.  Maybe the Fool just likes cats with wings and acid.

[kimim]

I don't think the Fool likes the dragons any more than he likes humans; he considers them as arrogant and selfish as humans: "dragons are no better than humans...they will hold up a mirror to humanity's selfishness." He says he's introducing the dragons, not to do humanity a favor, but "to keep the balance," to keep humans from spreading like a cancer across the earth, killing whatever seems inconvenient. lol the Fool is an ecological warrior.

Anyway, the way the dragons treat their elderlings reminded me of the way a human would treat a pet. Some people are good to their pets. Others forget about them, or are cruel to them, or genuinely believe they're giving the critters what they need while they're killing them. It's like the dragon "adopts" a human from the pound, but there's no guarantee that the dragon will be good to its human.

[Consigliere]

The Fool's rationale does not make much sense to me. So to keep humanity in check he works to reintroduce dragons who are a mirror to humanities selfishness and arrogance - only much more powerful - and who are equally capable of spreading like a cancer and killing whatever seems inconvenient.

[Darth Richard II]

Cause Dragons are cool.

[kimim]

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

The Fool's rationale does not make much sense to me. So to keep humanity in check he works to reintroduce dragons who are a mirror to humanities selfishness and arrogance - only much more powerful - and who are equally capable of spreading like a cancer and killing whatever seems inconvenient.

I don't think this is a moral thing. Neither specie can have complete control, so long as the other is around to balance it. The happy ending would be elderlings, long-lived, magical, and infertile as hell. They're not going to be popping out billions of babies in a single century.

 

[Darth Richard II]

I always thought it was because he looked into the future and saw some serious shit were they needed dragons, but it's been ages since I read the originals. A Hobb re read is one of my Summer projects.

[HexMachina]

Could all be connected to Chalcedeans too I guess. Twice dragons have thwarted Chalced's designs in Bingtown/Jamalia. And both times have prompted a more unified and open world. Just contrast the relative isolation of the Six Duchies in Farseer with the widespread alliances and trade agreements present in the latest series. The Fool's path thus far has led to a more unified, balanced world, whereas the other path, led by the Pale Woman, would have been chaos and brutality. I don't think it's the dragons themselves that the Fool needs, but they are a necessity to follow the path he wants to play out.

Or I'm just talking bs as usual, who knows.

[Darth Richard II]

Robin Hobb needs a World of Ice and Fire style book.

[Consigliere]

13 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Could all be connected to Chalcedeans too I guess. Twice dragons have thwarted Chalced's designs in Bingtown/Jamalia. And both times have prompted a more unified and open world. Just contrast the relative isolation of the Six Duchies in Farseer with the widespread alliances and trade agreements present in the latest series. The Fool's path thus far has led to a more unified, balanced world, whereas the other path, led by the Pale Woman, would have been chaos and brutality. I don't think it's the dragons themselves that the Fool needs, but they are a necessity to follow the path he wants to play out.

Or I'm just talking bs as usual, who knows.

This is a much better explanation. Bringing dragons back just to keep humanity in check does not make a great deal of sense. Either the Fool was being over-simplistic with his explanation or (more likely, imo) he did not fully understand why dragons needed to be brought back, just that they had to be in order to set the world on a better path.

[kimim]

38 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

This is a much better explanation. Bringing dragons back just to keep humanity in check does not make a great deal of sense. Either the Fool was being over-simplistic with his explanation or (more likely, imo) he did not fully understand why dragons needed to be brought back, just that they had to be in order to set the world on a better path.

Does setting the world on a better path mean that humans will succeed as a species and take over, as they have in our world, or does it mean reducing human numbers so that everyone else can also succeed?

I ask because Hobb makes a big deal of elderling infertility. You can't have elderlings without dragons, and the Fool wants the elderlings back. Elderlings are long-lived, magical, beautiful...and unlikely to spawn huge families, the way regular humans can. In Six Duchies, rapidly growing human population is taking over lands where other animals used to thrive. Fitz sees that places where he used to run with Nighteyes are now built up, taken over by humans, and wonders where the wolves are these days. In place of that, dragons offer control, and the very attractive possibility of becoming a less fertile but long-lived elderling.

Intrusion of dragons also improves Chalced, obviously, and might, long term, get rid of slavery, discrimination, etc. I think these are only one part of the Fool's motives; I don't believe he's thinking only of humans when he talks about setting world on a better path. 

[Consigliere]

29 minutes ago, kimim said:

Does setting the world on a better path mean that humans will succeed as a species and take over, as they have in our world, or does it mean reducing human numbers so that everyone else can also succeed?

I'd say it is more like dragons, elderling and humans learning to live and work together is what Hobb is going for. I don't see the human population being severely reduced. In the past elderlings and dragons lived together but, as you pointed out, it was more of a master/pet relationship and both species displayed a level of disdain towards the regular humans. I can see Hobb moving towards more equality in those relationships.

[kimim]

4 hours ago, Consigliere said:

I'd say it is more like dragons, elderling and humans learning to live and work together is what Hobb is going for. I don't see the human population being severely reduced. In the past elderlings and dragons lived together but, as you pointed out, it was more of a master/pet relationship and both species displayed a level of disdain towards the regular humans. I can see Hobb moving towards more equality in those relationships.

idk. Elderlings are morally human. They brawl in the streets, commit murder, start wars, have drug dens. I'm not sure if it's possible for elderlings and humans to form anything other than an elderling upper class and a human lower class (with exceptions, of course).  Add dragons, and humans aren't looking at a happy future, imo. An optimistic writer like Brandon Sanderson might manage a happy ending, but I can't see Hobb going there.

I'll guess that the pet-master dichotomy between elderling and dragon is temporary. Present day elderlings don't know what to do with the silver, but past elderlings did; that's how they built their roads, buildings. They could probably heal one another the way Fitz heals them, thanks to silver.

[Consigliere]

13 minutes ago, kimim said:

idk. Elderlings are morally human. They brawl in the streets, commit murder, start wars, have drug dens. I'm not sure if it's possible for elderlings and humans to form anything other than an elderling upper class and a human lower class (with exceptions, of course).  Add dragons, and humans aren't looking at a happy future, imo. An optimistic writer like Brandon Sanderson might manage a happy ending, but I can't see Hobb going there.

I'll guess that the pet-master dichotomy between elderling and dragon is temporary. Present day elderlings don't know what to do with the silver, but past elderlings did; that's how they built their roads, buildings. They could probably heal one another the way Fitz heals them, thanks to silver.

I just can't see Hobb going the way of human extinction or subjugation by elderlings and dragons. Of the current crop of elderlings, it is only Rapskal/Tellator and his crew who pose a problem and I don't see them being long term problems - either they are killed or brought to heel. I think that Malta, Reyn and the others would be more open to strengthen ties to the Six Duchies (trade and sharing of knowledge), especially after Fitz' skill healing. The current crop of dragons have become more attached to their human handlers as well -  iirc, there was some mention in RWC that these dragons were displaying some 'undragonlike' behaviour due to spending so much time and being so reliant on their handlers. These memories should be passed on to future generations. Combine that with their incomplete ancestral memories and I think that Hobb has created enough of a clean slate that she can change the old elderling-dragon-human dynamic. Tbh though, I don't think that Hobb will explore the long-term repercussions of this particular aspect of the story.

[kimim]

I'd like to know what the situation was like in the past. Did past elderlings subjugate humans? Chalcedeans see them as enemies, but Chalcedeans aren't reliable. The Six Duchies think of them as saviors, and maybe their myth recalls reality. I agree that we won't know, as Hobb is unlikely to explore long-term repercussions in Assassin's Fate. She might get into it in future books, though.

My take is pessimistic: If you have two human groups living in the same region, one group far more powerful than the other, the weaker group is in for a lot of pain. I'm not sure if ancestral memories will help; when these elderlings access their magic, they will be far more powerful than their neighbors. Cultural similarity, ancestral memory are no barrier to war.

...and yes, we need a World of Ice and Fire for Hobb's world.

 

[Consigliere]

10 hours ago, kimim said:

I'd like to know what the situation was like in the past. Did past elderlings subjugate humans? Chalcedeans see them as enemies, but Chalcedeans aren't reliable. The Six Duchies think of them as saviors, and maybe their myth recalls reality. I agree that we won't know, as Hobb is unlikely to explore long-term repercussions in Assassin's Fate. She might get into it in future books, though.

It's been a while since I read the books so my memory might be a little fuzzy on the details but I don't think that elderlings subjagated humans in the distant past. The early Farseer kings did have contact with the elderlings (King Wisdom, iirc, is said to have made an alliance with the elderlings). We know that both elderlings and farseer kings carved dragon forms from memory stone so there was definitely some sort of alliance in the past. Some degree of segregation between the two is inevitable as elderlings spend alot of time around dragons and spending time around dragons/dragon-touched results in changes which can be dangerous or even fatal.

As far as I recall, there is actually nothing to suggest that one species tried to dominate the other and plenty to suggest that the relationship between elderlings and humans was an amicable one. On the current generation: skill healing is going to be extremely valuable to the current elderlings and this gives the Six Duchies some leverage in negotiations. There is also an enormous wealth of knowledge stored in the memory stones in Kelsingra which is largely untapped and that should be of great interest to the Six Duchies. I think that Fitz will help in finding the Silver river as he was skill linked to Verity at the time and is capable of communicating with Verity-as-Dragon as well. I think that an alliance between the two nations is inevitable and I also think that an agreement will be reached with the dragons over hunting grounds. I expect this to happen off page though.

[HexMachina]

42 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

It's been a while since I read the books so my memory might be a little fuzzy on the details but I don't think that elderlings subjagated humans in the distant past. The early Farseer kings did have contact with the elderlings (King Wisdom, iirc, is said to have made an alliance with the elderlings). We know that both elderlings and farseer kings carved dragon forms from memory stone so there was definitely some sort of alliance in the past. Some degree of segregation between the two is inevitable as elderlings spend alot of time around dragons and spending time around dragons/dragon-touched results in changes which can be dangerous or even fatal.

As far as I recall, there is actually nothing to suggest that one species tried to dominate the other and plenty to suggest that the relationship between elderlings and humans was an amicable one. On the current generation: skill healing is going to be extremely valuable to the current elderlings and this gives the Six Duchies some leverage in negotiations. There is also an enormous wealth of knowledge stored in the memory stones in Kelsingra which is largely untapped and that should be of great interest to the Six Duchies. I think that Fitz will help in finding the Silver river as he was skill linked to Verity at the time and is capable of communicating with Verity-as-Dragon as well. I think that an alliance between the two nations is inevitable and I also think that an agreement will be reached with the dragons over hunting grounds. I expect this to happen off page though.

The little excerpts which open each chapter seem like a suitable place for that to happen, just as we got the story of Patience taking charge of the Coastal Duchies during the Red Ship wars.

Im also pretty convinced an alliance/trade agreement is inevitable. The struggle to reach an agreement is mentioned a couple of times, with the Elderlings not wishing to part with their treasures,bid sues with dragons hunting, etc. But now the Six Duchies has something of high value to barter with - skill users, possibly even skill training. 

[kimim]

4 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The little excerpts which open each chapter seem like a suitable place for that to happen, just as we got the story of Patience taking charge of the Coastal Duchies during the Red Ship wars.

Im also pretty convinced an alliance/trade agreement is inevitable. The struggle to reach an agreement is mentioned a couple of times, with the Elderlings not wishing to part with their treasures,bid sues with dragons hunting, etc. But now the Six Duchies has something of high value to barter with - skill users, possibly even skill training. 

ita trade has to happen. The one "techno-magic" anyone has to offer elderlings is Skill training, which Six Duchies can do. That's temporary, though; once elderlings get the Skill, they can do their own training, have their own craftspeople. They need raw materials--human peasants are trying to grow crops, and having lousy luck. In return, elderlings can offer magic or protection. As the population of dragons and elderlings grows, they'll both need more Silver and the black stone. Kelsingra has its own mine. Outislands have it, too. Buck and Chalced might have it as well. What will happen to the humans sitting on this material?

btw we see human-elderling class split in Kelsingra: Servants and peasants are human. Rulers, military leaders are elderling. Of course there are exceptions, but it's still striking.

Meanwhile, wtf happened in Buck? Humans built a wooden fort over an elderling fortification. Then the mysteriously Skilled Taker showed up, and rebuilt the wooden fort using elderling black stone. I'd assume this happened after the fall of the elderlings, as how would a group of humans take over a fortification from the elderlings? Could Taker be elderling?

• He comes from the Outislands, a place with an elderling settlement.
• He brings with him a tradition of training Skill users and building coteries, which sounds elderling. It turns out that, as a result, Six Duchies is the only place on earth where Skill users are still trained.
• He also brings with him a tradition of seeing elderlings as allies.

Was Taker an elderling who survived the elderling apocalypse, and kept some elderling traditions alive in Six Duchies? Without dragons, of course, there would be no more elderlings. Skill use, though, isn't dependent on dragons.

...so I'm totally, totally confused.

[Calibandar]

Book 3 , Assassin's Fate, now scheduled for March 2017, pretty much as expected:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Assassins-Fate-Book-Fitz-trilogy/dp/0553392956/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465751167&sr=1-3