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Ser Falione

Gendry is in love with Arya.

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I'm going to refer you back to my terminology glossery.  I think we utilize "romantic love" in different ways.  I'm not sure what you mean by "romantic love" but I consider "romance" to be the idealization of the object of desire. It's apparent you mean something else but I'm not sure what.  What I do know, is that married couples at least have a sexual history, a consummation, and a commitment, that adds to whatever other forms of love they feel for each other.  And I'd say that being married to someone you have no sexual desire for is probably bad news for your marriage, unless you're out of sexual desire altogether. 

Yeah I totally understand. Romantic is usually desire so I should choose a different word, but I can't figure one out to be honest. I guess I'm thinking of it like...maybe theres a girl who has a boyfriend, or maybe isn't heterosexual. You know you can't be with that girl, she's unavailable. But you long for her, love her, yet you can't do anything about it.
Hahaha something along those lines I'll admit. Not exactly though.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again the Gendry/Arya shipping is disgusting. 

 

Seriously at Arya's age its not a "grey area" or "acceptable in world" its child molestation. 

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I don't think it's disgusting. If they were to act on it, yeah, I don't think many people would disagree that it's very messed up. The mere act of wanting them to be a couple at some unspecified time in the future is not disgusting. How many movies have children meeting, then moving away from each other only to find each other as adults. We're sad when they wave good-bye as children because they were obviously meant to be together! That's a form of shipping that no one calls disgusting. I don't get why hoping they get together in the future is such a bad thing.

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People who consider he only has filial feelings for Arya are missing his "ring the black haired girls' bells" remark.

 

They've been friends for a long while, but at HH they are odds for a great part. This is mostly because Tyrion's observations about what slavery does to people applies to Gendry at HH. He doesn't have a Jaqen to empower him. He very well knows what a monster Ser Amory is, but he resents the power switch anyhow because Ser Amory was a bannerman to Tywin... rubbish of course.

 

But once they escape, he soon allies with Arya, and they become one mind for a while, backing each other through thick and thin. There's the moment they both tell "No" to Hot Pie, and Arya notes it, comparing it to how Jon and her would do that. They do stuff together, like walking the weirwood circle of High Heart. They're friends at that point.

 

Then follows Acorn Hall, and it's the first time she's washed and he ever sees her with a dress on. At a first glance he laughs so hard over it, the wine comes out of his nose. So, he's not yet seeing her in a new light, yet. As a friend he invites her to the smithy. The smithy conversation is two-fold. Inititally it's about Thoros. Arya here thinks he's mostly talking shop, as he picks up smithy tools. But watchful reading reveals that he's not so much interested in talking about how Thoros abused steel, but what a great warrior he was at Pyke. When you realize he's not talking shop but talking about a famed fighter, what he does with the tools in the smithy becomes very suspect. He lays down each of them. He mentions his first sword he was to make before he was sent off with Yoren. Arya still thinks it's related to "smithing", but we know that he made a warrior's helmet all for himself and refused to part with it even for the Hand. He made that helm of his own design, and he says he already knew in his head how he was going to shape the sword. That sword was not meant for sale, but to be his to accompany his helmet. Gendry dreamed of being a warrior. But the capture by the Mountain, both Arya and him take as his personal failure. It's also where his helmet got taken away. This is one of the reasons he gives up on his dream in HH and settles for "smithing for Lucan" and "it's all the same, whichever master you have". This is almost completely analogues to Jorah's behaviour after being taken as a slave. Giving up.

 

So, he mentions the sword he was going to make for himself, and Arya - completely oblivious - says he can make swords for her brother at RR. In response he "lays the hammer down", repeats "Riverrun" and then completely changes the subject.

 

This tells us why Gendry wanted to check out the smithy - to test whether being an armorer smith for a lord at a castle forge is what he really wants to do. They've been around the BwB for a while now and they come close to the knight's ideals. Laying the hammer down instead of hanging it back where it belonged is a sure sign that "Riverrun" is not an option for him anymore.

 

So, he changes the subject, in fact her appearance. And that's when his eyes are opened. The words he uses though are suspect. He does not use the word "lady" and he does not call her "pretty". Instead he uses "girl" and "nice". By not identifying her as a lady, he keeps the fact of their status difference hidden and unacknowledged. And "nice" is the word you use to somebody when you try to appeal to their kindness. It's the equivalent where you have to pass a guarding dog and say "nice doggy" in the hope they won't lash out at you. In those few lines, Gendry shows an attempt to pacify Arya towards him, not to reject his actions and words. And the sniffing even gives it a sexual undertone - I just only need to refer to the bear-and-maiden song where the bear smells the honey of her hair.

 

But Arya does reject him at that point. Not because she's not attracted to him, but because she attempts to reject someone before he can reject her. She doesn't believe she's attractive, quite the opposite. She also believes that handsome boys will be paired with Sansa, and she with the "fat" ones. Arya is at an asexual age, but asexuality does not mean you can't be attracted physically and emotionally to someone. And she's attracted to Gendry before he's ever attracted to her. Since adults have sexual feelings they mistake physical attraction with sexually desiring someone. For adults one leads to the other, and thus are connected. Not so in children. They can be physically attracted without experiencing sexual desire. Arya uses a clever subterfuge from the start with regards to Gendry being handsome to her. She never uses the word "handsome" in her pov about him, but always "strong". But if you pay attention to her focus on him, it's easy to figure out that she finds him attractive.

 

When you find someone attractive, your focus and all your senses are on alert, including as a child. We know less than a third about Hot Pie than we know of Gendry through Arya. Before their capture she already knows at least 6 different facial expressions of Gendry - thinking, stubborn, angry, sullen, intent on playing the hero, ... Her focus is on him from her second chapter in aCoK. When he lures her away from the cage with Jaqen, Rorge and Biter, she feels like kicking something, in need of a fight, and she challenges him. Eventually he takes the challenge. Just as they stand in readiness to spar, she notes his "wet hair" (on account of having taken a bath) and "deep blue eyes". The word "deep" is glaringly connotated to attraction. It's not ever something you'll think about someone you are not attracted to. In fact it implies you're drawn to the person. But then the Gold Cloaks arrive, and she pulls him in hiding with her in the shrubbery. Her mind is on alert on the Gold Cloaks. She wants to hear what they're after. Gendry is confused and asks her why they're hiding, and she orders him to be quiet. So, all her intentional focus is on the Gold Cloaks, her safety and she doesn't want him distracting her. And yet, at the same moment she tells him to be quiet, she notices his ear smells of soap. That right there is a glaring sign of attraction. Even at the risk of her life, her senses and her mind take the time and room to consciously register he's smelling of soap. So, now we have a Gold Cloak scene where she smells him, and an Acorn Hall scene where he smells her.

 

Not convinced, because she thinks of him as "strong" instead of "handsome". She calls Jaqen "handsome" after all. Yeah, but Jaqen is much older and a "criminal", so she already rules him out subconsciously as a potential romantic interest. Calling him "handsome" is safe to her self-image. She wouldn't feel hurt if Jaqen would not be interested her on account of her "not being pretty", because she's too young anyway. But her smell is also very much on alert around him at HH, not to mention she visits him while he's taken a bath.

 

So, we have 3 scenes where one character took a bath, where the other "smells" the nice perfume, and attraction. So, yes, as a motif it implies that during the smithy scene Gendry suddenly realizes he's attracted to Arya (who has been forced to take a bath, and put in a dress). So, why does Arya reject it? Because she doesn't believe a handsome boy could be attracted to her at all. So, she challenges him with the spoiled dress statement after their rumble. And while we don't really get to witness Gendry's response to her after she's forced into a bath again that same evening, and this time in even a prettier dress (purple and baby pearls), undoubtedly it would have magnified his impression of her being pretty.

 

At this point though, I consider his attraction still as asexual as that of Arya's; But everything changes at the Peach. He's 15 (Arya's 10), on the brink of manhood. And he's touched seductively by a woman upon arrival. I think he blushes so deeply here not because of Arya standing next to him, but because he's experiencing his first sexual feelings. The woman says he blushes like a maid. It is here that Gendry's own sexuality is awakening. That might seem a bit old, but overall his maturity seems belated in contrast to say Robb, which is actually not strange for a commoner boy, who doesn't have the coin and means to go to whores and isn't expected to think of marriage until his 20s when he has a living to support a wife and family. Gendry is a bit of a late-bloomer in that regard. 

 

But once sexuality awakens it's hard to separate the concepts of physical attraction of sexual desire. Gendry knows very well how young Arya still is (Lem clouted him on the head over it after the smithy-fight), and he wants to protect her, not just physically but in other ways to. Since, she's young he wants to shelter her from sexual realizations. So when she suddenly tells him that she thinks they're in a brothel (and he's certainly aware of it), he attempts to deny the truth of it. It's like the situation where a child points at two dogs going at it and making a remark on it, while the parent lies and comes up with some silly, innocent explanation about what the dogs are doing. So, that's why Gendry says, "What is a highborn lady like you doing here if this is a brothel."

 

More, he also wants to protect her from his own awaking sexuality. He wants to remind himself she's a child, and not a sexual object. Probably since his sudden physical responses to women make him fear that he might have a similar, but completely inappropriate physical response to Arya whom he now finds attractive - especially when she's sitting next to him in all that femine lace and smelling nice again (from her earlier bath). But if she's talking openly about brothels and whores, it's hard to do that. To make matters worse, Bella comes along. Asexual Arya isn't much bothered by it, but it puts Gendry in the most awkward situation on several levels. So, he departs and stays out for quite a long time. To cool off most likely and find a new subterfuge in order to avoid surprising and inappropriate desire for a child. When she's dressed as a boy, it's not so difficult, but in all the lace inside a brothel it becomes harder. So, he tells himself he'll think of her as a sister. You can't have sexual thoughts about a sister. By then Arya has seen a lot of groping, kissing and going upstairs. What a brothel implicates has become less abstract to her. At that moment the older drunk approaches her calling her a Peach. She's taken completely by surprise, a bit drunk, and thus not equipped to deal with the situation assertively. Gendry is right on time to shoo the man off, claiming "She's his sister."

 

That he doesn't just say it for the man becomes clear when Arya tells him, "But you're not my brother." This angers and frustrates him a great deal. Why? What's so insulting and frustrating about her stating a mere fact? Because it completely destroys his subterfuge to avoid thinking of her as a sexual object. And yet, why does Arya find it important to point out he is not her brother. She's not dumb. Yoren had her pretend to be a boy to avoid rape. She feared Rorge. Gendry lying to some stranger who's making a pass on her that she's his sister wouldn't be hard to understand for her at all. But being a little drunk she's also more inclined to give in to revealing and making clear what Gendry is not to her - not her brother.

 

The statement about ringing Bella's bells glaringly reveals that indeed he has more than a friend's or filial feelings. He does want to make her jealous and angry enough to stay away from the common room and him. But now that she has seen what "ringing bells" implies, she's not as apathic about Gendry with Bella anymore as she was initially when Bella first talked to him. And when one has to state to themselves they don't care about something, it means the opposite. Arya does not want Bella ringing Gendry's bells.

 

So, we have Arya being asexual but physically attracted to Gendry way longer before Gendry ever realizes she's attractive, and she does not want him to think of her as his sister, nor thinks of him as a brother. Gendry finds himself attracted to Arya right about the time he's growing to know sexual desire, and he desperately wants to avoid having inappropriate physical responses around and about her, all through subterfuge of reminding himself - still a child, a highborn lady I can never have, let's think of her as a sister.  

 

And yes, Gendry is jealous of Edric. After him joining the BwB, she - in her hurt- acted all highborn to him, doesn't allow him to apologize or explain himself; she walks High Heart's circle with Edric instead of him, and she rides with the boy. She makes a mental note of it, how disparaging Gendry is towards Edric and that Gendry doesn't like Edric at all. Gendry's forced to trail them as third wheel of the wagon, frustratedly trying to get her attention, and on top of it all, Edric's status-wise a much more probable match than he can ever be.

 

Then when we see him again, he lives at the inn where she was last seen by witnesses (thought of as a boy accompanying Sandor), where Sandor and she killed Polliver and the Tickler. The bloodstains of that fight are still there, impossible to be washed out. He's around a girl that's bossy, of her age, and aside from the color of her eyes could be Arya in Brienne's mind. And it's basically serving as an orphanage, where either children end up by themselves or are brought by the Sparrows. It seems like Gendry hopes that perhaps one day Arya might wander in or be discovered by the Sparrows and be brought there. And that's not even a dumb idea, not from Gendry's POV or the BwB's. He knows her the longest, and would be the first to recognize her, no matter how raggedy, filthy and boyish she looks - as long as she has her own face. Nobody would believe she had the coin to cross the Narrow Sea to Braavos. So, if she survived, in their minds, she must still be in the Riverlands.

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I probably wouldn't have read this long of response if it didn't have your name on it, but as usual, very insightful and definitely worth it.:)

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I think it's undeniable that they're attracted to each other, though Gendry's attraction may be more conscious since he's older. In Arya's POVs, she pays far more attention to Gendry than the other boys, goes into more detail describing him, has more complex emotions in relation to him. In other words she likes him even if she doesn't explicitly realize it.

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Yeah I totally understand. Romantic is usually desire so I should choose a different word, but I can't figure one out to be honest. I guess I'm thinking of it like...maybe theres a girl who has a boyfriend, or maybe isn't heterosexual. You know you can't be with that girl, she's unavailable. But you long for her, love her, yet you can't do anything about it.
Hahaha something along those lines I'll admit. Not exactly though.

 

I think it's comparable to Quentyn thinking of the 12-year old girl where he was fostered and thinking he wants to go back, marry her and have children with her. Note: Quentyn is older than Gendry. He's 19-20 and he thinks of a child-girl he likes and he wants to marry. Quentyn's thoughts, while about marriage and children, are not sexual. They are as asexual as Sansa's thoughts of marrying and having children. Sexual thoughts are kissing, touching, stroking, etc.

 

I think Gendry's attraction to Arya falls in the same category. He fears a sexual inappropriate response, when his own sexuality awakens, but I doubt he actually has any sexual desire about her. He just fears it at the Peach, because for the first time he's having his first sexual responses - not to Arya - but to the whores. He still needs to discover that his fear is probably unecessary. That he can consider Arya attractive without having sexual desire for her. It's proven by him living at the orphan's inn with Willow. She's a reminder of Arya, but nowhere is his behaviour sexual towards Willow. It would be the same if Willow actually had been Arya. He just doesn't know it yet at the Peach.

 

Physical attraction =/= sexual desire. They are two different things. Even as adults, we meet people often enough that we find physically attractive without having sexual desire for them, exactly because we consider it inappropriate.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again the Gendry/Arya shipping is disgusting. 

 

Seriously at Arya's age its not a "grey area" or "acceptable in world" its child molestation. 

 

I've got bad news about the real world, man...it doesn't conform to your moral hysterics.

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Gendry loves her, no doubts about it. Romantically? Who knows. He might, but I think Arya was too young at the time to figure out those kind of feelings.

 

I think he resented the fact that Edric had more in common with Arya and that, at some point, she could choose him instead. As soon as they meet they already had one topic in common: Jon. We know she wouldn't but he doesn't.

 

(Also, Gendry is often compared to a bull. For those who know a bit about zodiac signs, Taurus are jealous to the point of illogical insanity).

LOL I'm a Taurus and I can vouch for this.  I never knew this was a trait of tauruses. 

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I have no doubts that he has fallen in love with her, but it is (most likely) and unrequited love (Arya's mind is difficult for me to understand) but it is sweet too.

I don't think astrology works in real life at all, but, if so, in westeros sky I'm sure there are not bulls, but dragons? And direwolfs? :) And we don't even know his birth....

Off topic......
. astrology is fun in the way that you will always find something in your sign that defines you . I'm a taurus, but didn't identify with much, and then astrology-fans told me look at your ascendent, and again, I could only identify with some traits. Then I did a research and found out I was a taurus-gemini cusp (those who are born in the days when a sign changes are called cusps, and I identified a lot with both) But, of course, there are two signs. If you read the characteristics of two signs everybody would identify with them......again.....it's funny.

There should be some astrology in Westeros!!

 
 

LOL I'm a Taurus and I can vouch for this.  I never knew this was a trait of tauruses.


Well, putting aside the validity of the zodiac, the Bull (the animal) is a sign often representing stubbornness and virility, specially male fertility.

Which makes me wonder why the Baratheons aren't Bulls but Stags. Because honestly, who is more freaking stubborn than Stannis Baratheon?

Nevertheless, there are a lot of Taurus/Bull characteristics that Gendry seems to have: down to earth attitude, patient and calm and nice until disturbed seems to be the most prominent.

(btw, I'm a Taurus with the Sun in Taurus. Don't make me mad...)

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Hey, no one is saying that Gendry wants to have sex with Arya right now.

First, if we go by parallels, Gendry does care for the real Arya, while Robert never care for Lyanna except for the fact that she was Ned's sister. That's worst. Lyanna was 14 when he proposed the marriage, and for what it looks like, he didn't care having a betrothal. He kept having sex with other women.

This is the difference with Gendry. I'm sure Gendry felt sexually attracted to Bella and many of the other girls who were there. But Arya was also there. Gendry seems to be a decent guy. I know he is very aware that he can't have sexual feelings for Arya and I'm sure he doesn't even have them at all. He probably just likes to be around her because she's nice and fun. It can be puppy love. Yet, his conflict is that he was offered sex when she was around. Unlike his father, we would rather put that aside than doing something that could offend her, even when Arya isn't fully aware that his behaviour could disturb it. Remember he never got to have sex with Bella, we don't know how Arya could have reacted to that.

Again, I think Gendry's reaction is more inclined to be sexual frustration. He cannot have sex with Arya but he cannot have sex with Bella either because he feels he could be betraying Arya, who is after all, his friend. And even if Arya was older, he can't have her because she's noble. That's why he got mad at Edric, because Edric is someone who can have Arya at some point, despite they both are kids.

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I've got bad news about the real world, man...it doesn't conform to your moral hysterics.


There is nothing morally hysterical about the resistance of associating sexuality with a 10 year old.;)

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Hey, no one is saying that Gendry wants to have sex with Arya right now.First, if we go by parallels, Gendry does care for the real Arya, while Robert never care for Lyanna except for the fact that she was Ned's sister. That's worst. Lyanna was 14 when he proposed the marriage, and for what it looks like, he didn't care having a betrothal. He kept having sex with other women.This is the difference with Gendry. I'm sure Gendry felt sexually attracted to Bella and many of the other girls who were there. But Arya was also there. Gendry seems to be a decent guy. I know he is very aware that he can't have sexual feelings for Arya and I'm sure he doesn't even have them at all. He probably just likes to be around her because she's nice and fun. It can be puppy love. Yet, his conflict is that he was offered sex when she was around. Unlike his father, we would rather put that aside than doing something that could offend her, even when Arya isn't fully aware that his behaviour could disturb it. Remember he never got to have sex with Bella, we don't know how Arya could have reacted to that.Again, I think Gendry's reaction is more inclined to be sexual frustration. He cannot have sex with Arya but he cannot have sex with Bella either because he feels he could be betraying Arya, who is after all, his friend. And even if Arya was older, he can't have her because she's noble. That's why he got mad at Edric, because Edric is someone who can have Arya at some point, despite they both are kids.

I agree with this assessment.
Also, I have always wondered the same thing about Gendry's Bull helm vs Baratheon Stag; the Bull is so much more fitting!

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There is nothing morally hysterical about the resistance of associating sexuality with a 10 year old.;)

Naaah, what's between Gendry and Arya doesn't seem sexual to me. He does not harass or molest her in any way. It has more to do with awkward pre-teen interest mixed with class conflict.

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Naaah, what's between Gendry and Arya doesn't seem sexual to me. He does not harass or molest her in any way. It has more to do with awkward pre-teen interest mixed with class conflict.


I didn't say it was. I agree, but was responding to a different kind of statement.

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There is nothing morally hysterical about the resistance of associating sexuality with a 10 year old. ;)

 

There are ten years old girl who have "boyfriends". The concept can exist without having a sexually context. They definitely don't think about sex, just more platonic stuff.

 

I'm not saying as ok, btw. In fact, I'm totally against the idea: it can sexualise kids. But, it doesn't necessarily implies that a child is sexualized.

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There are ten years old girl who have "boyfriends". The concept can exist without having a sexually context. They definitely don't think about sex, just more platonic stuff.
 
I'm not saying as ok, btw. In fact, I'm totally against the idea: it can sexualise kids. But, it doesn't necessarily implies that a child is sexualized.

I was responding to a statement that seemed to imply thinking of a sexual component to Arya & Gendry was okay.

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There are ten years old girl who have "boyfriends". The concept can exist without having a sexually context. They definitely don't think about sex, just more platonic stuff.

 

I'm not saying as ok, btw. In fact, I'm totally against the idea: it can sexualise kids. But, it doesn't necessarily implies that a child is sexualized.

 

I remember how I as a kid always preferred to play with certain boys over others. Was because I was attracted to them. Heck even as a toddler. Didn't think of touching them, kissing them, let alone sex. But I preferred their attention and spending time with them. I'd never have called them a "boyfriend", but if someone asked me who I'd marry later when I was all grown up, I'd think of that boy.

 

Children aren't completely asexual. They can even masturbate (girls and boys), but that's usually very personal and completely unrelated to fantasising about another kid they know, if it even includes fantasy.   

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I remember how I as a kid always preferred to play with certain boys over others. Was because I was attracted to them. Heck even as a toddler. Didn't think of touching them, kissing them, let alone sex. But I preferred their attention and spending time with them. I'd never have called them a "boyfriend", but if someone asked me who I'd marry later when I was all grown up, I'd think of that boy.
 
Children aren't completely asexual. They can even masturbate (girls and boys), but that's usually very personal and completely unrelated to fantasising about another kid they know, if it even includes fantasy.

What's your point? There isn't a sexual attraction between Arya & Gendry. It's a mutual crush.

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