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Ser Falione

Gendry is in love with Arya.

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Hmmm.  Well being tall makes it OK.  LOL

 

What...the...fuck

 

I wasn't saying it was ok. I was 12 as well and I thought it was creepy. In fact, many of our classmates thought it was creepy.

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I don't think that Lady Sharya, Meera of Tarth, and I disagree greatly over the actual feelings, only the way we describe them, how we classify them, etc.  Beyond this is a disagreement in interpretation of unclear text.  Because it is unclear, our answers are intuitive rather than deductive or inductive.

You are right, we are mostly in agreement about their feelings, intuitive or not. Since we aren't writing a research paper here, we don't really need to isolate and define terms as though they cannot be synonymous.;) I don't believe we are in disagreement in interpreting the scenes. I don't see any sexual aspect to their relationship the same as you.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again the Gendry/Arya shipping is disgusting. 

 

Seriously at Arya's age its not a "grey area" or "acceptable in world" its child molestation. 

Dude, no one is saying they have or should have a relationship right now.  The point is that there is potential for one WHEN THEY'RE BOTH GROWN UP.

 

Who in their right mind would interpret this discussion as anything else?

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I wasn't saying it was ok. I was 12 as well and I thought it was creepy. In fact, many of our classmates thought it was creepy.

I think a 12 year old dating is beyond creepy...it's dangerous.  Age differences don't matter when you get to adulthood, but a 12 year old cannot possibly handle the realities of "dating" as older boys/girls see it.

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Change "Gendry" to "Jon" (Snow) in the above and everybody would see it as brother-sister affection and teasing and horseplay and never think it had a sexual component at all.
 
 
Gendry, by the way, would only be a pedophile if any desire he felt for her could be made to instantly vanish by suddenly making her 5 or 10 years older.

No one here has been saying that that scene has a sexual tone to it. Just an attraction.

Pedophiles don't have to be exclusively attracted to children, they just have a primary preference for em.

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Guys, human sexuality is too complicated to simply go and say "oh, you're a bad person for having those feelings!!". And Gendry is around 16. He probably has a beehive of feelings in his head now. Both heads.

 

Fact: he DOES love Arya. He feels protective over her. That's the only thing we know for certain.

 

Does  he want her sexually?

 

No. He doesn't seem to be very sexually savvy either. As far as we know, considering we don't have his pov, he could have similar thoughts as Jon: "I don't want yet a woman because I don't want to have a bastard". Why not? I mean, the whole idea of every other men wanting sex all the time in any way is also sexist. Some men are ok with waiting or simply would rather have someone they really want to be with, not a prostitute. Maybe Gendry has seen his mother struggling raising him and he said "I want to marry a women one day instead of leaving her with my bastard".

 

Does he wish "one day" maybe they could be together, in a closer way? If he did, the revelation of her being a lady has completely shut down that. That's the base of his bitterness over the presence of Edric Dayne because that's the kind of man Arya will have one day.

 

Also, isn't Gendry a knight now? Who knows if he's trying to make himself fit for her.

 

 

Change "Gendry" to "Jon" (Snow) in the above and everybody would see it as brother-sister affection and teasing and horseplay and never think it had a sexual component at all.

 

Well, in the original storyline of ASOIAF, Jon and Arya were kinda in love. Martin doesn't fear going "there", despite they had at first brother-sister affection.

 

Also, Targaryens and Lannisters.

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Change "Gendry" to "Jon" (Snow) in the above and everybody would see it as brother-sister affection and teasing and horseplay and never think it had a sexual component at all.

 

 

We can put any name, but there's nothing sexual about it.

However, I don't think that it is only brother-sister affection. Maybe with Jon it could be read as that (because they are raised as siblings, after all) but it is not only this situation in particular that makes some of us think that he has romantic feelings for her. It's not as simple as that.

 

 

 

I don't think that Lady Sharya, Meera of Tarth, and I disagree greatly over the actual feelings, only the way we describe them, how we classify them, etc.  Beyond this is a disagreement in interpretation of unclear text.  Because it is unclear, our answers are intuitive rather than deductive or inductive. 

 

You are right, we are mostly in agreement about their feelings, intuitive or not. Since we aren't writing a research paper here, we don't really need to isolate and define terms as though they cannot be synonymous. ;) I don't believe we are in disagreement in interpreting the scenes. I don't see any sexual aspect to their relationship the same as you.

 

Agree. There is nothing sexual. Just romantic.

 

Does Gendry have sexual feelings? I don't think so, if there had to be anything it wouldn't go beyond "touching hands" and thinking of a possible future with her.

 

Of course, we can not know for certain what happens in his mind (we don't have his POV) but he's written as a decent boy and IMO he has a crush on her based more on her personality and spirit.

 

 

 

Does he wish "one day" maybe they could be together, in a closer way? If he did, the revelation of her being a lady has completely shut down that. That's the base of his bitterness over the presence of Edric Dayne because that's the kind of man Arya will have one day.

 

Also, isn't Gendry a knight now? Who knows if he's trying to make himself fit for her.

 

 

Interesting. Being a knight can be read as a romantic idea, as well, especially if one of the reasons he does it is to be more suitable for her. And if he does it only for himself, it is kind of romantic too. The "ideals" of knights. And it shows also how he is "decent" and "romantic", rather than "sexual" as a character.

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Interesting. Being a knight can be read as a romantic idea, as well, especially if one of the reasons he does it is to be more suitable for her. And if he does it only for himself, it is kind of romantic too. The "ideals" of knights. And it shows also how he is "decent" and "romantic", rather than "sexual" as a character.

 

I personally think is a bit of both. He does want to improve himself from just being some bastard to someone somehow useful to the society. The fact he made a helmet for himself kinda implies that he always considered the idea of being a warrior or that at some point, he might want to fight. Look at Dunk, for instance. I suppose kids in KL have grown hearing many stories of Dunk. After all, he was born there.

 

At the same time, Gendry's role is very protective. He tried to protect Arya and he's not in charge of the inn. A knight is an idea that is related to a man protecting a lady, in love in mostly of the romantic tales. Maybe for Gendry, Arya is "his" lady, as this is the only way in which they can be together. He can always swear his sword to her, being his sword a symbol for other thing.

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Gendry is 15years based on Arya's 5th chapter in ACOK where it is said he is 5 years older than her 10yrs.

 

I've read this entire thread waiting for someone to actually note the difference in their ages, which is stated in ACOK. It's a 5 year age difference. People make it to be 6-10 years, perhaps because of the show.

 

So they're 10 and 15 in ACOK, and perhaps (?) 11 and 16 in ASOS. Nothing can happen in canon, but in 4-5 years, they'd be more than appropriate according to not only Westerosi standards, but also our own until the early 20th century. My own maternal great-grandparents married at ages 16 and 21, and they'd known each other all their lives (same country town).

 

Whatever is going on between Arya and Gendry, it's no more inappropriate or pedophiliac than, say, Laura Ingalls and Almanzo Wilder, who had a 10 years age difference. Laura was 12 and Almanzo was 22. They started courting when Laura was 15 and Almanzo 25, and they married when Laura was 18 and Almanzo 28. And that was as recently as the late 19th century...

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No, really.  I've never heard "crush" used in any serious discussion about love, attraction, or desire.  Where does it fall in with the big boy/girl terminology? 

 

If I had to guess, I would say that a crush was a pre-sexual, sexual attraction to another individual.  IE, When a 8 year old boy likes an 8 year old girl.  He may find her attractive and beautiful, but not in a sexually mature manner.  There is a sexual component, but it is not mature.  Maybe he wants to hold her, kiss her, touch her, but not have sex with her.  You could say the same about the desire that a 10 year old boy or girl might have for an older figure, like a teacher.  They may find the adult attractive, even in a sexual way, but not actually have sexual desires for them.  Hence, I don't think that individuals with matured sexual desires even have "crushes". 

 

But this is all my guess.  I'm not sure what you mean by "crush", which is why I asked. 

 

I would say that Gendry does have mature sexual desires, as evidenced by the fact that he wants to ring Bella's bells. 

Having a crush is another term for puppy love.  Nowadays people say "he's crushing on her,or vice versa."  I believe these two have feelings for each other.  I also believe Gendry understands his more than Arya does hers.  Even though I said she has had to grow up fast, in the sexual arena, she is still an innocent.  Gendry knows this and protects her, even from himself.  Gendry may have somewhat deeper feelings, as it is obvious he is in puberty, he blushes when sex is even implied.  This is a world when people become betrothed as babies for goodness sake.  I think, as I said before, that all of this banter and playfulness is a foreshadowing of a relationship that may become more serious later if their paths cross again and will in fact be more appropriate.

 

Eddard thought Sansa and Joff too young to be betrothed.  Robert said they could marry later.  Girls are marriageable in this world by the time they have their first blood.  Well, when you start your period varies but some girls as young as eight have been known to menstruate.  11, 12 & 13 and sometimes later than that are normal.

 

Arya hasn't started bleeding yet, and that is the surest sign of puberty in girls along with breast development.  Gendry on the other hand is definitely pubescent 

 

There is nothing about Gendry's feelings for Arya that are inappropriate.  He has come to love and admire this girl with whom he has shared much, including literal life and death situations.  Gendry hasn't acted upon these feelings, but, if they were both commons, it would be quite possible for them to marry when Arya begins her "moon blood"  or flowering (what a term)! 

 

No one likes violent sexual scenes, and there are so many in this series (more on television) but this is a cute little relationship where both the boy and the girl with a 5 year age difference, are still quite innocent in the ways of love or sex.  There needn't be anything read into this relationship that isn't there.  As I said before, they appear to be laying a foundation for a future relationship, and of course, one that may never get a chance to happen.  It would be very sad if Gendry would be the one to find Arya frozen in the snow with Needle in her hand.

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I've read this entire thread waiting for someone to actually note the difference in their ages, which is stated in ACOK. It's a 5 year age difference. People make it to be 6-10 years, perhaps because of the show.

 

So they're 10 and 15 in ACOK, and perhaps (?) 11 and 16 in ASOS. Nothing can happen in canon, but in 4-5 years, they'd be more than appropriate according to not only Westerosi standards, but also our own until the early 20th century. My own maternal great-grandparents married at ages 16 and 21, and they'd known each other all their lives (same country town).

 

Whatever is going on between Arya and Gendry, it's no more inappropriate or pedophiliac than, say, Laura Ingalls and Almanzo Wilder, who had a 10 years age difference. Laura was 12 and Almanzo was 22. They started courting when Laura was 15 and Almanzo 25, and they married when Laura was 18 and Almanzo 28. And that was as recently as the late 19th century...

 

I agree. I actually mentioned the age gap in aSoS being 10-15. People keep insisting on Gendry being 16, and Arya 10. Gendry was born the year after Robert took the throne. 284 AC. Arya was born in 289 AC. There is no 6 year age gap, but 5. Gendry is 16 in aFfC and aDwD, when Arya is 11.

 

But anyhow, nobody calls foul over 19-20 year old Quentyn thinking about marrying the 12 year old daughter of his foster home. That's 7 to 8 years difference. And a 19-20 year old Quentyn surely has adult sexual feelings, and yet his marriage thought about the 12 year old is as asexual as Sansa's ideas of marriage and babies in aGoT and aCoK. We don't think Quentyn has only friendly and brotherly feelings for her, do we? His thoughts of her are romantic, but not sexual.

 

Gendry does not "lust" after Arya. I think he regards Arya as asexual. But it doesn't mean he is not physically attracted to Arya. In fact I'd say his sniffing and him trying to pin her down and tickle her, suggest he wants to hold her. It doesn't make him a lusting perv, but he moves from being a friend to wanting to look at her, smell her and hold her. I don't think he has a wet dream about her, no sexual fantasies, nor gets a hard on. But he's definitely moving from platonic friendship feelings to platonic romantic feelings. And if he were younger, the people around them would probably even be ok with it. A 12 year old boy holding hands with a 10 year old girl and giving her a peck on the cheek is cute. A 15 year old who's neither boy nor man, but in between, and definitely having physical responses to women - that's too risky. That's the reason Lem clouts him on the head, reminding him of her being age inappropriate, and Lem basically start to chaperone them when they sleep - Arya wakes up to Gendry on one side, Lem at the other side. But it's still innocent enough, for Lady Smallwood to smile fondly over it and Tom to sing a romantic song.

 

I disagree with Raven the Stark Mad that he desires Bella. He declines her offer and rudely even, and he only speaks it as a maybe to anger, upset Arya.

 

Gendry is indeed a knight. I think there were two reasons for it. Like JonCon's Red Beard says - for himself. I too think that Dunk may be his personal favorite hero. Dunk was born and raised in Flea Bottom. I imagine a lot of Feal Bottom boys dream of emulating Dunk. Then suddenly he gets picked from the street and brough to the best armorer smith of KL, if not Westeros, and be an apprentice. Well, an armorer smith of course is not a hedge knight, but it's the closest thing to it for him. At least he'll get a chance to make his own armor and arms. And so he makes his own helmet. In aFfC he finally gets to make his own sword. It's not finished yet, but that was what he was making when Brienne showed up. It's been his dream, but the HH capture made him abandon it for a while. So, part of the knighthood is to have his chance to become a Dunk 2.0. And he's thinking about that already just prior before noticing Arya as a romantic interest. She becomes an extra motivation. As an armorer smith he can forever forget having any chance. But maybe... a very tiny maybe he might have a shot at it in the future in his mind as a knight, even though Lem explicitly reminds him that outlaws don't get to marry princesses, but end up hanged.

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Also people have to realize that in previous ages, boys and young men were encouraged to slake their lust with one kind of girl/woman, and to aspire to/marry another. It's only VERY recently (past 100 years) that we've combined the two in the West... that the object of intense sexual desire was also the woman you wanted to make your wife. Prior to the sexual revolution, the invention of the Pill, and the women's revolution, people married for different reasons.

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Gendry is indeed a knight. I think there were two reasons for it. Like JonCon's Red Beard says - for himself. I too think that Dunk may be his personal favorite hero. Dunk was born and raised in Flea Bottom. I imagine a lot of Feal Bottom boys dream of emulating Dunk. Then suddenly he gets picked from the street and brough to the best armorer smith of KL, if not Westeros, and be an apprentice. Well, an armorer smith of course is not a hedge knight, but it's the closest thing to it for him. At least he'll get a chance to make his own armor and arms. And so he makes his own helmet. In aFfC he finally gets to make his own sword. It's not finished yet, but that was what he was making when Brienne showed up. It's been his dream, but the HH capture made him abandon it for a while. So, part of the knighthood is to have his chance to become a Dunk 2.0. And he's thinking about that already just prior before noticing Arya as a romantic interest. She becomes an extra motivation. As an armorer smith he can forever forget having any chance. But maybe... a very tiny maybe he might have a shot at it in the future in his mind as a knight, even though Lem explicitly reminds him that outlaws don't get to marry princesses, but end up hanged.

 

A little bit of symbolism here.

 

Again, the bull represents male sexuality and fertility: pure raw virility. While the Baratheons aren't Bulls, Gendry is often compared to one. At least in Robert's and Renly's case (and few other Baratheon ancestors), they were not only handsome but very charismatic and sexually appealing. And, if the show managed to get something right, I'd say that Gendry is a guy that no lady would reject. I mean, really: the actor is to dream for.

 

Anyway, it's also curious that he first makes a helmet and not a sword. In the narrative, it could be that his master didn't want him to use swords yet (also being those signs of knights, not some apprentices. Look at what happened to Duck after his father made him one sword). But, if we take this as a symbolic allusion, it means that Gendry isn't yet fully sexually developed as helmets are for protection while swords, the most notorious phallic symbol, are for attacking. He's first developing as a man rather than as a sexual man, something that is the opposite of his father who fucked all his way to the Seven Kingdoms but he never fully matured as an adult.

 

There is also the thing that he works as a smith. Smiths don't use swords: they make them. Edric Dayne is a squire: he's training to be a knight, to use a sword. Gendry trained to be a smith: will make swords that he won't use. This is somehow an allegory to the fact that Gendry will (or fear he will) see Edric getting Arya while he's meant to be below them. This is something that we actually get to see on the show: "you wont' be my family: you will be my lady". The words, whatsoever, can be also foreshadowing as, what knights get at the end? Ladies. See bellow.

 

Now Gendry is a knight, he will use a sword, one that he's making: he is past puberty. This accompanies the fact he's guarding the inn in case Arya appears. He's getting prepared to become both a man, as in he's not longer a child as well as a sexual man. In "Mercy"

 

[spoiler]

We've seen Arya using already his sexuality in a very sicked twisted way.  Nevertheless,  I think she also mentions that she's about to hit puberty.

[/spoiler]

 

I am sure they will meet again and not as children. Something more than child play can happen, which doesn't mean they will end up marrying each other. A kiss, maybe.

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People keep insisting on Gendry being 16, and Arya 10. Gendry was born the year after Robert took the throne. 284 AC. Arya was born in 289 AC. There is no 6 year age gap, but 5. Gendry is 16 in aFfC and aDwD, when Arya is 11.

Just to be consistant (and plug my Gendry's mother was a Riverlander theory), Gendry is older than Dany and closer to Robb & Jon's age based on the only mention of Gendry's age; that he was 5 years older than Arya in ACOK when Arya was 10yrs, Dany was 14yrs and Robb & Jon were 15yrs.:) He may have been born in 284 but close to the beginning of the year and not >9mo after Robert took the Throne.

<snip>

Well said.:thumbsup:

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Just to be consistant (and plug my Gendry's mother was a Riverlander theory), Gendry is older than Dany and closer to Robb & Jon's age based on the only mention of Gendry's age; that he was 5 years older than Arya in ACOK when Arya was 10yrs, Dany was 14yrs and Robb & Jon were 15yrs. :) He may have been born in 284 but close to the beginning of the year and not >9mo after Robert took the Throne.
Well said. :thumbsup:

 

So, Robert celebrated being a King, marrying Cersei, and losing Lyanna conceiving a bastard? :lol:

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So, Robert celebrated being a King, marrying Cersei, and losing Lyanna conceiving a bastard? :lol:

;)
No...Robert conceived Gendry wherever he stayed in the Riverlands before the Trident, and the mother eventually made her way to KL.:)

Edit: I just have to find the family with the yellow hair....

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A little bit of symbolism here.

 

Again, the bull represents male sexuality and fertility: pure raw virility. While the Baratheons aren't Bulls, Gendry is often compared to one. At least in Robert's and Renly's case (and few other Baratheon ancestors), they were not only handsome but very charismatic and sexually appealing. And, if the show managed to get something right, I'd say that Gendry is a guy that no lady would reject. I mean, really: the actor is to dream for.

 

Anyway, it's also curious that he first makes a helmet and not a sword. In the narrative, it could be that his master didn't want him to use swords yet (also being those signs of knights, not some apprentices. Look at what happened to Duck after his father made him one sword). But, if we take this as a symbolic allusion, it means that Gendry isn't yet fully sexually developed as helmets are for protection while swords, the most notorious phallic symbol, are for attacking. He's first developing as a man rather than as a sexual man, something that is the opposite of his father who fucked all his way to the Seven Kingdoms but he never fully matured as an adult.

 

There is also the thing that he works as a smith. Smiths don't use swords: they make them. Edric Dayne is a squire: he's training to be a knight, to use a sword. Gendry trained to be a smith: will make swords that he won't use. This is somehow an allegory to the fact that Gendry will (or fear he will) see Edric getting Arya while he's meant to be below them. This is something that we actually get to see on the show: "you wont' be my family: you will be my lady". The words, whatsoever, can be also foreshadowing as, what knights get at the end? Ladies. See bellow.

 

Now Gendry is a knight, he will use a sword, one that he's making: he is past puberty. This accompanies the fact he's guarding the inn in case Arya appears. He's getting prepared to become both a man, as in he's not longer a child as well as a sexual man. In "Mercy"

 

[spoiler]

We've seen Arya using already his sexuality in a very sicked twisted way.  Nevertheless,  I think she also mentions that she's about to hit puberty.

[/spoiler]

 

I am sure they will meet again and not as children. Something more than child play can happen, which doesn't mean they will end up marrying each other. A kiss, maybe.

 

 

You might be interested in my bear thread. I've written several essays on Gendry's arc. His Bull identity is actually a mistake, born out of his fellow apprentices calling him bullheaded. If we follow that reasoning, then Arya's a horse. Gendry took the bull as personal sigil at the time to literally throw the namecalling back at the other boys. He loses that helmet and never gets it back. And I very much doubt it'll ever show up again. But then nobody calls him "the Bull" again.

 

The refence comes up twice again after HH. Once when they meet Tom & Co and names are exchanged. In the chapter before that, GRRM has signaled that Gendy and Arya have become one mind. And he still is when he appears from behind the wall with Hot Pie. Hot Pie was the sole honest one, saying he was called Hot Pie. Arya said she was called whatever they wanted and Squab was fine by her. Gendry says "The Bull", and she couldn't blame him not wanting to be "Mutton Chop". But the implications are that Gendry himself uses "The Bull" as a lie. After that Tom uses "The Bull" too as a reference, at the Peach. Here too there is requirement fro Gendry to have his true identity not known.

 

In actuality Gendry is a hidden bear character. There are two aSoIaF references that equate Bulls and Bears. A comment by Roose to Theon about Ramsay being strong. And a fight between Bull and Bear in Daznak's pit that Dany witnesses. Bull and Bear effectively kill each other. The symbolism you refer to about the Bull is the same for the Bear. Stubborn, male virility, strong, etc... The difference between them is by whom they are worshipped and where they have their power. The Bull is the symbol within extensive agriculture societies, developed societies with cities and husbandry. The Bear is the same symbol within societies that rely for a big part on hunting and foraging. Gendry starts out in a city (Bull), but loses the helmet and style on his way to the forest, where he becomes the bear.

 

The smith and the sword is tied to a bear character legend (Wayland the Smith). In fact an ideal bear is warrior and smith combined. Gendry does end up combining both. 

 

And then there're the chapter where they are captured by the BwB and the Acorn Hall scene. It's a re-enactment of the bear-and-maiden song, save for the last two verses of the song (the explicit sexual ones), and the first half of the song is written to fit bear-hunt folklore. If you're interested about symbolical analyses with regard to bull to bear, smith to warrior, please read my "Bear and Maiden" essay thread. The introduction essay helps to learn about bear symbology in general. Then go to the essay about the song itself, and how it relates to bear hunting. And then the hidden bear essays. 

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Dude, no one is saying they have or should have a relationship right now.  The point is that there is potential for one WHEN THEY'RE BOTH GROWN UP.

 

Who in their right mind would interpret this discussion as anything else?

 

Those who manage to see pedophilia on every page of every book in the series.

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