Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Language of Leviathan

[Ethenil]

Great work once again :)

I poster this in the last thread but I don't think you saw it. Anyway:


"Wow, LmL, this is all awesome!

Any ideas as to what could have caused the comet-in-the-moon? The true "gods" of Martinverse?

Also, what gods, if any, do you suppose are real? Like the seven, r'hllor, etc. Or do you beleive none of those are right and the "true" gods or God is something still undiscovered? Or better yet, each religion is "true" to the extent that their belief is a part of the true cosmology, but not completely true?

Personally, I'd like to know that there are gods in Martinverse. And that, in your theory, that they sent that comet for some purpose.

Another thing I did not see you talking about is the origin of the Others: where did they come from? Could the various races (human, cotf, others) be individual creations of different gods? Could there be another species? Perhaps an opposite to Others that would be the equivalent of high elves? Thus they would be the "fire elves" as the Others are the "ice elves" (they would now appear to be made entirely of Ice because the destruction of the fire moon "ascended" them. If the other moon had fallen, the fire elves would appear flamy. Just realized that R'hllor symbolizes the fire moon and the Great Other the ice moon) Then, these elves would have bred with some humans and created the Valyrians - explaining the "blood of the Dragon".

Sorry for the confusion! I got really excited!

Just thought of two other things >< :
- do you think the GEotD will be mentioned in the upcoming novels?
- doesn't Valyria fill that "Atlantis" spot? A great civilization of the past who used to be more advanced and is now left in ruins."

[DominusNovus]

Valyria seems to fill the Rome spot better, with some Atlantis elements. Its far too recent to the present to be Atlantis, whereas the GEotD is far back in the mists of time.

[LmL]

Guys, I just wrote several paragraphs about Atlantis and my iPad ate them. :(. I hate computers.

I agree with Dominus that Valyria is more akin to the Roman Empire, with their extreme hubris and enslavemtn of peoples in far off lands. The road building is a direct take from the Roman Empire. Of course the Roman system of slavery was far more humane than Valyria - in roman society slaves had several ways of rising out of serfdom, even holding land and becoming a citizen, whereas Valyria fed their slaves to the gristmill of the mines, more akin to Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. Of course the Valyrians had dragons and existed for five thousand years, which is unprecedented in real history. We should all be glad the Nazis didn't have dragons, you know? ;)

The eruption of Thera which brought down the Minoan civilization is often connected to the Atlantis myth, and I think the doom draws from this, certainly. However this identification between Atlantis and the Minoans is wrong in my opinion. I'm something of an Atlantis / ancient prehistory buff, so I have a few opinions on this parentheses these are the ones which I just typed and the computer ate. Perhaps the higher powers don't want me sharing this info - too bad.

As for Atlantis, the defining features are as follows:

- They existed in remote antiquity
- They were destroyed by a make a disaster involving a flood and the subsidence of land
- They possessed science and learning which was different from our own, representing a previous high point in human civilization which is by and large incomprehensible to us today
- The survivors fled in all directions and carried remnants of their advanced knowledge to various places around the world
- These survivors brought advanced knowledge of astronomy, metalworking, agriculture, etc. to the indigenous peoples of the lands to which they fled

I'm sure you can see the likeness to the Great Empire of the Dawn.

The most important part of the story is the idea that the survivors fled their homeland, destroyed by cataclysm, and brought the seeds of advanced knowledge and culture to various places around the world. This is one of two strong pieces of evidence which suggest that the legend of Atlantis is based on some kind of fact. The stories of tall, pale skinned, blue-eyed, bearded people with blonde or reddish hair exist on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Google the term "haplogroup x" and pull up the Wikipedia page for such. This is a rare genetic type which is characterized by red or blonde hair and blue eyes. Coincidently, or perhaps not, the dispersal of this rare gene match is almost exactly the places that we find this Atlantis myth. We find it in north and south America, in Egypt and Africa, especially amongst the Berber peoples of Morocco and surrounding regions, among European Celts, and a few other places.

If you really want to explode you mind, Google the terms 'Guanches' and "Canary Island mummies." The Guanches are a cro-mag on descend people who lived in total isolation on the Canary Islands up until europeans discovered them in the 1500s. Of course, they are tall white haired light-skinned people with blue eyes etc. Their myths contain many elements of the Atlantis story. They used mummification practices which are comparable to both Egypt and those found in the Americas.

You'll have to indulge me the side tracking here, you can't mention Atlantis around me and not expect to lose about 30 minutes of your life. :)

Regardless of the truth of these myths, the parallels to the GEOTD fairly leap off the page. We know that most of their citizens fled in all directions when the bloodstone emperor came to power during the long night - TWOAIF tells us exactly that. The Phoenicians are one of the most likely descendants of this Atlantis culture, and indeed George has adapted elements of the Phoenicians to the great empire of the dawn. The important one is the idea that the Phoenicians like to build a fortress cities just offshore of foreign lands that they wish to trade with, a very close match to the fused stone fortress on Battle Isle next to Oldtown and the stories of traders from overseas settling there in the Dawn Age. Certainly these GEOTD settlers contained advanced knowledge, being Dragon Lords with all the seeming technology of the Valyrians, plus the advanced seafaring skill needed to make such a long journey. When I look around Westeros and see anachronistic constructions such as at battle isle and Moat Cailin, Storms End, the First Keep of Winterfell, Pyke, and quite possibly whatever is under the ice of the Wall, I see a red flag pointing directly to ancient immigrants with advanced technology. None of these locations are attributable to the first men. The round tower design is specifically noted to only have arrived with the Andals, yet the First Keep, Storms End, and the castle at the Pyke are round tower construction, and they are three of the oldest structures to be found anywhere on the continent. Most Cailin is simply built on a megalithic scale not found anywhere else in Westeros. Yeen matches the description of Moat Cailin, which brings us back to greasy black stone and the GEotD. Matt Cailin is described as oily stone by Theon in ADWD, and although that might just be swamp slime, I don't see how calling it oily black stone can possibly be a coincidence, given that Moat Cailin is so obviously not a First Men construction.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

what about K´dash?

 

And even the Shrykes supposedly live in terror of K’dath in the Grey Waste, a city said to be older than time, where unspeakable rites are performed to slake the hunger of mad gods. Does such a city truly exist? If so, what is its nature?

On such matters, even Lomas Longstrider is silent. Perhaps the priests of Yi Ti know, but if so, these are not truths they care to share with us.

 

 

was it part of the GEotD?

 

"older than time" its a similar concept as asshai:

 

they will say only that a city has stood here since the world began and will stand here until it ends.

[LmL]

Great work once again :)
I poster this in the last thread but I don't think you saw it. Anyway:
"Wow, LmL, this is all awesome!
Any ideas as to what could have caused the comet-in-the-moon? The true "gods" of Martinverse?
Also, what gods, if any, do you suppose are real? Like the seven, r'hllor, etc. Or do you beleive none of those are right and the "true" gods or God is something still undiscovered? Or better yet, each religion is "true" to the extent that their belief is a part of the true cosmology, but not completely true?
Personally, I'd like to know that there are gods in Martinverse. And that, in your theory, that they sent that comet for some purpose.

Hey Ethenil, thanks for the note and apologies for not replying to your earlier comments, they must have slipped through somehow. No, I do not believe we have gods in ASOIAF. All of the perceived gods, and all of the magic, come from the natural elemtns. Fire and ice, sea and storm, shadow, light, and blood, and of course comets, suns, moons, and stars. The personification of natural elemtns into deities is something humans have been doing for thousands of years - this is the fundamental concept on which my line of inquiry is based. Mankind has always used myth and religion as a way of relating to natural forces, celestial forces etc, and this is why I feel that we can decode the myths of the ancient past to figure out the details of the long night cataclysm. I knew Martin has said he has intentionally left this question of gods unanswered, so that we might enjoy the speculation. But I feel fairly certain how he is perceiving this: along the lines of what I just said above. By personifying natural forces as deities, man creates an interesting vehicle for knowledge transmission. One of my favorite examples of this is the Egyptian god Hapi, the God of the Nile floods. Every single bit of Hapi's story and humanlike characteristics derive from the knowledge needed to deal with the Nile floods, and to take advantage of them for agricultural purposes. The stories of Hapi are a clever way of transmitting specific knowledge over long periods of time, knowledge which was crucial to living along the Nile. Hapi is not real, but the floods certainly are, so you better know your Hapi lore. 
 

 

Another thing I did not see you talking about is the origin of the Others: where did they come from? Could the various races (human, cotf, others) be individual creations of different gods? Could there be another species? Perhaps an opposite to Others that would be the equivalent of high elves? Thus they would be the "fire elves" as the Others are the "ice elves" (they would now appear to be made entirely of Ice because the destruction of the fire moon "ascended" them. If the other moon had fallen, the fire elves would appear flamy. Just realized that R'hllor symbolizes the fire moon and the Great Other the ice moon) Then, these elves would have bred with some humans and created the Valyrians - explaining the "blood of the Dragon".
Sorry for the confusion! I got really excited!
Just thought of two other things >< :

Now we are getting on the same page. I absolutely believe that the others and the fire beings both come from greenseer magic. Go back about three or four pages in this thread and read through the comments, particularly where I started discussing the "Old Ones." In short, yes, I believe we do have tall elves that are the opposite of the short elves (cotf). I do think that the others were created by one of these two groups of elves, and I believe that Azor Ahai and the GEotD were greenseers who turned to fire magic conversion, much as Melisandre is doing now. Shadowbinders seem to be likely outcroppings of this magic.

Yes, the great other and R'hllor could be seen as the ice and fire moon pattern, although these moons ultimately harken back to the ultimate reality of fire and ice. The sun is the purest incarnation of fire, and for cold, we have the cosmic void of deep space. This cosmic void is the concept of the Hindu Kali, the black one who represents the blackness in between the stars. Kali exists outside of time, before anything else was created. She will devour all at the end of time. Presents the cosmic womb which represents death and rebirth both. Think about the way in which winter swallows up the previous year, and then gives birth to the spring of the next year. Think about the Bardo realm of Buddhism, that's the same concept the in between land after death and before rebirth. George references this idea in many places, such as three headed Trios, whose first had devours the dying, and his third head gives life to the reborn but no one knows what the middle head does. All of Mirri Maz Duur's shadow dancing is a Kali reference, and indeed MMD knows the secrets of the birthing bed as well as a shit ton of death magic. The tent scene has elements of both death and rebirth.

I think the origin of the others clearly has to do with weirwoods and greenseers, but there is also a connection to the toxic black moon rocks. I hope you don't mind if I keep this one under my hat, I just recently had a breakthrough idea about this and I don't want to spill the beans until I can type it up into a coherent theory. This is my main strategy for not being regarded as a crackpot. You really have to walk people up to some of these ideas or else it really does sound like crazy talk. Of course, you know that I try to draw everything from strict interpretation of the text, and I believe I can do the same to prove this connection between the others and the meteors. [/quote]

- do you think the GEotD will be mentioned in the upcoming novels?
- doesn't Valyria fill that "Atlantis" spot? A great civilization of the past who used to be more advanced and is now left in ruins."[/quote]

I already addressed the Atlantis stuff above, so to your last question: yes though perhaps not by name. We've already seen them in the very first book, and Euron makes mention of Golden gods with gemstone eyes in book four. Shortly after the mention of these gemstone I had a statute shortly after the mention of these gemstone-eyed statues, he describes Daenerys as having amethyst eyes, the only person ever to do so. Personally, I think that Dany is headed towards becoming the full embodiment of a Dragon Lord sorcerer, meaning that she will gain access to the glass candles, which I believe Marwyn must to be carrying with him on his way to Slaver's Bay, and I believe that she will gain access to increasing amounts of lost knowledge from the great empire of the dawn, quite possibly by using those candles. I suspect that this is how we will catch a glimpse of Asshai, something which I believe Martin intends to give us. Therefore I do expect further exposition in regards to the great empire. We also have the wildcard of visions seen through the weirwood. Who's to say that the first Bran chapter does not open with a vision of a meteor striking ancient Westeros? The weirwoods certainly witnessed this event, and it's essentially the most important events in world history, so the weirwoods might show it to him.

As for how greenseers managed to steer a comet into a moon... I feel that I have figured that one out too, but that also will have to wait for a fully fleshed out essay. That's one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle which I could not figure out for the longest time. My logical brain dictates that the comment just hit the moon, on its own, and that this caused magical fall out which humans then had to deal with. I think this makes a fine story, and I don't see the need for people to have caused the collision. However you know that I always try to be loyal to the text over my own hunches and suspicions, and I have just come across too much evidence that "the trees did it", or, that greenseers did it. Azor Ahai the BSE "did it," the Grey King "did it," etc. We have more cryptic stories about ancient people who stole something from heaven - Durran stole Elenei, and Hugor Hill's crown was made of stars pulled down from heaven. That's the common element - pulling things down from heaven. So, I have come around to the conclusion that it was in fact people, magicians, because this catastrophe to occur. It seems totally irrational how does a human magician cause a comment to strike a moon? Well thanks to collaborations with my good buddy Evolett, I believe I have found the answer. But again, I need to present it in a fully fleshed out theory so that it doesn't sound crackpot. :)

Keep in the lookout for upcoming essays... And if you want, you can give me a follow on Wordpress and a like on Facebook. In the future, I'm going to be releasing essays on my wordpress page before they hit the forums here, so if you want to see this stuff ahead of time, that's how you do it. I'm using my Facebook page, which I just created, as a bit of a personal blog, because on my word press page, I only put my long assess up. Links to those are in my signature.

Thanks as always for reading, and for the great feedback. Let me know what you think of my comments here. :)

[LmL]

what about K´dash?

 

 

was it part of the GEotD?

 

"older than time" its a similar concept as asshai:

 

they will say only that a city has stood here since the world began and will stand here until it ends.

 

Sounds like some survivors of the GEotD, or just an implication that dark sorcery is alive and well in the hinterlands. Hell, maybe the BSE got his dark magic training over there. 

You should check out Lady Barbrey's recent thread, she's unlocked some interesting hidden metaphor in the lines of Yi Tish emperors, and we are discussing some idea in this vein. It s a great thread, you'd enjoy it. She gets into the yellow emperor in exile in Carcosa, Illyrio, GEotD stuff, etc. 

[Ethenil]

No, I do not believe we have gods in ASOIAF.

 

 

Hello again :)

 

It saddens me to hear that xD I sure do like my divinities in my fantasy settings  :cool4: Just like in worlds such as Marvel, I'll guess there is at least one higher power, which may sometimes grant "visions".

 

I absolutely believe that the others and the fire beings both come from greenseer magic.

 

 

Very interesting, never thought that the "primal" magic would be the source of all others. (all Others?) I wonder what the "mana" of this world is? How do they get the visions? Who sends them? Where does this magic really come from?

 

I've got the impression that someones reached to far for power, and the world paid the price...

 

Do you mean to say that the "fire visions of R'hllor" is actually the same magic the greenseers use, just moddeled for fire? That's awesome!

[LmL]

 

Hello again :)

 

It saddens me to hear that xD I sure do like my divinities in my fantasy settings  :cool4: Just like in worlds such as Marvel, I'll guess there is at least one higher power, which may sometimes grant "visions".

 

 

Very interesting, never thought that the "primal" magic would be the source of all others. (all Others?) I wonder what the "mana" of this world is? How do they get the visions? Who sends them? Where does this magic really come from?

 

I've got the impression that someones reached to far for power, and the world paid the price...

 

Do you mean to say that the "fire visions of R'hllor" is actually the same magic the greenseers use, just moddeled for fire? That's awesome!

 

That's what I am suggesting, yes. If you page back a few pages and read this comment and the several after, you'll see my ideas about the Old Ones as the horned green men, some of whom seem to be the greenseers responsible for doing the deed. 

 

As of the Others - try re-readin the prologue of AGOT, and look out for all the tree personification. Consider that any time a tree is doing something human like - reaching, clawing, pulling, having dark intentions, etc - this may be a metaphor to describe greenseers. Once you are tuned into this mechanism, you will see that it is constant, through all five books. The tree personification tells you what the greenseers were up to. We see frozen trees, drowning trees, and burning trees, and I think these are describing various forms of transformation / resurrection of greenseers. The original drowned men, for example. Patchface with his antler helm, who used to "sing" and "do magic," is now drowned and undead. Stannis's imagery of the fiery heart, the burning stag, gives you the fire transformation, as does the persistent phenomena of "fiery dancers" or "fiery sorcerers" waking from burning wood. And then we have the frozen trees.

 

And lines like this:

 

“Sam the Slayer!” he said, by way of greeting. “Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child’s snow knight?” 

This isn’t starting well. “It was the dragonglass that killed it, my lord,” Sam explained feebly.  (ASOS, Sam)

 

The long ranks of man and horse were armored in darkness, as black as if the Smith had hammered night itself into steel. There were banners to her right, banners to her left, and rank on rank of banners before her, but in the predawn gloom, neither colors nor sigils could be discerned. A grey army, Catelyn thought. Grey men on grey horses beneath grey banners. As they sat their horses waiting, Renly’s shadow knights pointed their lances upward, so she rode through a forest of tall naked trees, bereft of leaves and life. (ACOK, Catelyn)

 

The trees stood beneath him, warriors armored in bark and leaf, deployed in their silent ranks awaiting the command to storm the hill. Black, they seemed … it was only when his torchlight brushed against them that Jon glimpsed a flash of green. (ACOK, Jon)

                                                                         

Outside, the night was white as death; pale thin clouds danced attendance on a silver moon, while a thousand stars watched coldly. He could see the humped shapes of other huts buried beneath drifts of snow, and beyond them the pale shadow of a weirwood armored in ice. (ADWD, Prologue)

 

You'll note that "pale shadow" is a word often used to describe the Others. And armored in ice? Who do we know that is armored in ice? ;)

[Ethenil]

Who do we know that is armored in ice?  ;)

 

 

Well, right now, Brienne  :drunk:

[LmL]

 
Well, right now, Brienne  :drunk:

Huh what?

[hiemal]

Dropping my 2 stars on Carcosa and the Yellow Emperors:

An obvious parallel to Robert Chamber's The King in Yellow, a collection of dystopian tales (iirc- been a looooong time) featuring the eponymous play. The gist was that reading the The King Yellow drives the reader inevitably and dramatically mad. The play/poem was supposedly set in some ancient land called Lost Carcosa.

These stories were a big influence on Lovecraft's mythos-lorebook The Necronomicon.

[LmL]

Dropping my 2 stars on Carcosa and the Yellow Emperors:

An obvious parallel to Robert Chamber's The King in Yellow, a collection of dystopian tales (iirc- been a looooong time) featuring the eponymous play. The gist was that reading the The King Yellow drives the reader inevitably and dramatically mad. The play/poem was supposedly set in some ancient land called Lost Carcosa.

These stories were a big influence on Lovecraft's mythos-lorebook The Necronomicon.

 

Heimal you absolutely have to read Lady Barbrey's thread which deals with that very idea ;)

 

And tell her LmL sent you! ;)

[Ethenil]

Huh what?

 

Armored in ICE -> Oathbreaker -> Brienne xD

 

I know it was a bad comparison  :dunno:

[LmL]

Well this new forum skin looks spiffy, but I wonder why we can't see signatures. 

 

Editing works, search function not so much. 

[Bluetiger]

Ohhh , I don't know why Google Chrome signed this second account @BlueTiger (can someone ban it?)...

@Blue Tiger is the correct one...

[LmL]

It seems notifications don't work at all. 

Blue Tiger, I'm seeing your name with a space in between "Blue" and "Tiger" if that maters. 

 

But hey, look, images!

[Daendrew]

There's something fishy about Leviathan. 

Something feels even fishier with the new forum design. Westeros is supposed to be medieval. Something feels wrong talking about feudalism with sleek clean contrasting modern lines. 

[Sly Wren]

There's something fishy about Leviathan. 

Something feels even fishier with the new forum design. Westeros is supposed to be medieval. Something feels wrong talking about feudalism with sleek clean contrasting modern lines. 

Well, do you want to muck it up a bit with "plague" emojis? Perhaps insert a few images of pestilence? Open sewage? The lines might be clean, but we can now insert vermin-laden media.

[LmL]

I'm ok with the slick lines, but the dataloss seems gnarly. It seems like OP's that use quotes are all destroyed pretty thoroughly. Also, did all the conversation we've had over the past couple months just disappear with no warning? Seems like it. 

[Daendrew]

The Winds will soon blow. We will have a lot more to armchair theorizing to do soon anyway.

They pushed forward the show premier by a month which hints at it giving GRRM more time to finish Winds. He is determined to reveal Jon's babydaddy in the books before the show does.

That may be another reason why the show has eight seasons, aside from it being such a success. 

I follow a lot of ASOIAF pages on facebook and they spoiled many things pertaining to the show during the leak period. I am wondering if I should unfollow them before Winds comes out. Being spoiled on the show is one thing, but to be spoiled on the actual books is something else entirely.

Look we can insert photos!