Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Language of Leviathan

[LmL]

 
I hesitate to tell you the name of the river that runs through Asshai...

...and the blind fish in that river ASH are parallel to the blind white fish in the underground river in Bloodraven's cave.

[LmL]

Hmmmm, beyond both being prone to lightning strikes, and thus to being considered mystical by those who venerate storm or thunder gods, like Thor (there was a sacred tree in Germany called Thor's Oak during the period when Christianity came loudly knocking that caused a few stories) both are considered mystical or sacred anyways.
The Rowan or mountain-ash may be even more mystical  than larger versions, and is also represented in Westeros.
"Ellum do grieve, and oak do hate, willow do walk if you travels late".
Odin's spear Gungnir is carved from the world-ash.
The first man in the next creation, after ragnorok, will be named Ash.
Both Rowan and Ash are protections against fairies.
Ugh, coming up empty. If more treevia comes to me I will return.

Rowan is one of Garth's children. That story involves references to the labors of Hercules and the Hesperides. Golden apple, Golden Fleece, etc. George is using a lot of Greek myth with Garth's children. Maris the Most Fair and Uthor is the story of Io, Argus, and Hermes.

Rowan is also one of the spear wives with Mance at WF.

[Cagey Bee]

Sooo.. kinda of going back a bit.. and maybe off topic.. but I thought it might be pertain to all of this here. The mention of Quetzalcoatl being the morning star tripped me up a bit, forgot all about it. I was rereading a little bit, and i thought I'd share.

 

 

"The first culture to use the symbol of a feathered serpent as an important religious and political symbol was Teotihuacan. At temples such as the aptly named "Quetzalcoatl temple" in the Ciudadela complex, feathered serpents figure prominently and alternate with a different kind of serpent head. The earliest depictions of the feathered serpent deity were fully zoomorphic, depicting the serpent as an actual snake, but already among the Classic Maya the deity began acquiring human features." -From Quetzalcoatl wiki

 

Blood of dragons.. decended from dragons? Maybe, actually.. seeing as how the "Dragon God" started out more serpentine, and became more and more human..

 

 

"The exact significance and attributes of Quetzalcoatl varied somewhat between civilizations and through history. There are several stories about the birth of Quetzalcoatl. In a version of the myth, Quetzalcoatl was born by a virgin named Chimalman, to whom the god Onteol appeared in a dream.^[16] In another story, the virgin Chimalman conceived Quetzalcoatl swallowing an emerald.^[17] A third story narrates that Chimalman was hit in the womb by an arrow shot by Mixcoatl and nine months later she gave birth to a child which was called Quetzalcoatl.^[18] A fourth story narrates that Quetzalcoatl was born from Coatlicue, who already had four hundred children who formed the stars of the Milky Way.^[19]"

 

Several things here..

1). Legends differing has an analagous relationship to Azor Ahai having so many differing stories..

2). While Dany wasn't a virgin, one could argue that the birth of her children did not involve intercourse. (Except for Rhaego being sacrificed)

3). Also.. SACRIFICED?

4). The Milky Way thing... perhaps the first dragon (Quetzalcoatl) was created after Nissa Nissa shattered and turned into (temporary) stars? <-- why I bothered with the Astronomy post.. this is more mythology, really..

5). Emerald swallowing..

 

That's a few parallels.. (I'm sure op saw much of this.. but some others of us hadn't)

 

 

The story of Quetzalcoatl also involves several great cataclysms.. including fire and flood. I won't quote the article, that's pretty layman Mesoamerica myth stuff.. Planetos has suffered through a few great cataclysms itself..

 

 

"He was known as the inventor of books and the calendar, the giver of maize (corn) to mankind, and sometimes as a symbol of death and resurrection."

 

One link here obvious, the death and resurrection plays a pretty vital role in both stories. But also.. the calendar.. While this is a very weak link; consider.. the seasons in Planetos are out of whack, and supposedly they were once natural. Still, time and seasons and calendars all go together for me (Also moon symbols.. because.. you know.. the moon is how we first tracked anything time related..). The moon and the calendar are both screwed up, now..

 

Some of this is reaching for straws, I know. Still, things connect.. even if the connection is only for the sake of connection, (or it could be an accident.. or wrong) it might imply more meaning?

 

Edit: This is also a real book..

Lord of the Dawn: Quetzalcoatl and the Tree of Life

[LmL]

Great stuff Cagey Bee. Quetzalcoatl is one of a family of Morningstar deities, which includes Lucifer, Prometheus, Jesus, as well as Ishtar, Venus, etc. They all come down from heaven to bring knowledge and even transcendence to mankind. The serpent in the garden idea was taken from standard Mornigstar deity ideas.

One thing from your list - Q's mothers was impregantes by an arrow wound. That's VERY SIMILAR to a comet / sword thrust impregnation.

What I really like about the Quetzalcoatl myth is that the myth is very detailed, and based on the exact movements of Venus in the sky.

I went into detail on this subject in this essay, check it out Cagey Bee:

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/lucifer-means-lightbringer/

Also, you don't have to keep apologizing for potentially reaching. You're in a safe place here, it's okay. ;) No one will bite you. When we identify a world myth that George might be using, it's good practice to explore everything we can about the myth to see if any of it matches. No problem deciding he didn't use this or that element - once you look at the myth, it's easy to spot the manifestations of it in the text. Once I studied Kali, for example, I saw she is a black shadow associated with dancing, and death and rebirth. She has four arms, one of which holds a scimitar (arakh). So when one of the Dothraki blood riders swings an arakh so fast it looks like he has four arms, right outside of Mirri Maz Dur's tent of dancing shadows.... That's a clear Kali reference.

[LmL]

Also, Quetzalcoatl is associated with comets as well as Venus. He's called the "smokey eyed star."

[Cagey Bee]

And I want to bump also the gender bending nature of Venus, as it was made earlier, but relates here.

[Cagey Bee]

Gahaha, not apologizing for reaching. I am just saying that while the link is weak, it is there and should not be ignored. I probably should apologize for reposting your points ( I wouldn't be meaning to). The articles you've written are pretty thick, though.. and by the time I've digested one, I've forgotten some of the other. x.x (That's a compliment, who would be here if they didn't like to read, right?)

[LmL]

And I want to bump also the gender bending nature of Venus, as it was made earlier, but relates here.

Care to elaborate? Or were you just referring to the idea that Morningstar deities come in male and female, generally?

[LmL]

Gahaha, not apologizing for reaching. I am just saying that while the link is weak, it is there and should not be ignored. I probably should apologize for reposting your points ( I wouldn't be meaning to). The articles you've written are pretty thick, though.. and by the time I've digested one, I've forgotten some of the other. x.x (That's a compliment, who would be here if they didn't like to read, right?)

You're welcome to refer to my stuff and make your own ideas. That's what I have always intended - although I draw my own conclusions on the connections I am seeing, a large part of my intent is just to point out the connections and patterns and let people make of them what they will. Feel free to take the ball and run. After all we are all just working off the text that Martin has written. :)

I know you weren't apologizing per se, just a light heartened way of saying "that's what we do here." :)

[Cagey Bee]

Care to elaborate? Or were you just referring to the idea that Morningstar deities come in male and female, generally?

Oh, dragons are represented as both male and female, and being interchangable. It relates to Venus being both female and male.. and Quetzalcoatl is both Venus and a dragon.

[LmL]

Right on. I'm with you on that. When you come right down to it, moons and suns don't have a gender. Some cultures see the sun as female and the moon male, though it's usually the other way around.

[hiemal]

Oh, dragons are represented as both male and female, and being interchangable. It relates to Venus being both female and male.. and Quetzalcoatl is both Venus and a dragon.

And on the topic of serpents and gender-bending, we have the sage Tiresius who, observing two coupling snakes struck them with his staff and was changed into a woman. Discovering another pair of humping serpents he struck them as well and had his original genitals returned. This is the incident that led to his famous blinding- when questioned by the gods as to which gender enjoyed sex more he was blinded by the goddesses for revealing their secret (that they got more bang for their... bang).

I reckon blind Maester Aemon would be the Westerosi Tiresius.

[Bluetiger]

I haven't been active here for a while, as my PC stopped working, I don't have new still (but Hopefully I'll have it by the end of September), so I forgot to congratulate you LmL & others ;) Your theories are awesome and the work you put in research and writing... is amazing :)

<<Matt, aka BlueTiger>>

When I'll create my custom PC, I'll be more active on Westeros and in this threads...

[LmL]

I haven't been active here for a while, as my PC stopped working, I don't have new still (but Hopefully I'll have it by the end of September), so I forgot to congratulate you LmL & others ;) Your theories are awesome and the work you put in research and writing... is amazing :)

<<Matt, aka BlueTiger>>

When I'll create my custom PC, I'll be more active on Westeros and in this threads...

Thanks very much Blue Tiger Matt! That's tremendous. I'm glad you appreciate it, it's been fun on my end as well. I'm actually working on an audio version / podcast of a sort, gonna be the first essay but revamped a bit. My essays are so long that I think an audio format might be more palatable. I've a bit of experience doing podcast and audio production so it's something I've been thinking about for a while. Anyway please stop by my threads any time my friend, hope the computer thing works out. :)

[Bluetiger]

Thanks very much Blue Tiger Matt! That's tremendous. I'm glad you appreciate it, it's been fun on my end as well. I'm actually working on an audio version / podcast of a sort, gonna be the first essay but revamped a bit. My essays are so long that I think an audio format might be more palatable. I've a bit of experience doing podcast and audio production so it's something I've been thinking about for a while. Anyway please stop by my threads any time my friend, hope the computer thing works out. :)

Thanks ;)

Someone should translate your theories, so people on not-English forums also could read them...

[LmL]

Thanks ;)

Someone should translate your theories, so people on not-English forums also could read them...

 

Well I'd certainly not be opposed to that. One cool thing about a wordpress account is that they show you what countries your website visitors are coming from, and I've definitely been pleasantly surprised by how many people from all over the world are into ASOIAF and have ended up on my page somehow. Some days one country in particular comes through very strong - like "Oh look I'm popular in Turkey today!" ;)  That's been pretty fun. 

What part of the world are you coming from Blue Tiger?

[Bluetiger]

 
Well I'd certainly not be opposed to that. One cool thing about a wordpress account is that they show you what countries your website visitors are coming from, and I've definitely been pleasantly surprised by how many people from all over the world are into ASOIAF and have ended up on my page somehow. Some days one country in particular comes through very strong - like "Oh look I'm popular in Turkey today!" ;)  That's been pretty fun. 

What part of the world are you coming from Blue Tiger?

Poland...

[hiemal]

On Eldrick Shadowchaser v. Elric of Melnibone:

Elric's moral polarity can be defined as Law vs. Chaos as opposed our modern viewpoint of "objective" good v. evil or the ancient view of "subjective" good v. evil.

What would Azor Ahai's polarity be defined by? If we go by the title of the series, we have fire v. ice- which could be very close to law v. chaos in practical terms, preservation v. transformation in effect.  We can see AA in both lights, transforming (catastrophically) the GEotD and then blending the secret magic of CotF with his own in an attempt to hang on to something, perhaps, even as Elric of M. destroyed his homeland and then went out into the new world as an agent of balance.

[LmL]

On Eldrick Shadowchaser v. Elric of Melnibone:
Elric's moral polarity can be defined as Law vs. Chaos as opposed our modern viewpoint of "objective" good v. evil or the ancient view of "subjective" good v. evil.
What would Azor Ahai's polarity be defined by? If we go by the title of the series, we have fire v. ice- which could be very close to law v. chaos in practical terms, preservation v. transformation in effect.  We can see AA in both lights, transforming (catastrophically) the GEotD and then blending the secret magic of CotF with his own in an attempt to hang on to something, perhaps, even as Elric of M. destroyed his homeland and then went out into the new world as an agent of balance.

That's fascinating, especially that last bit. I really need to read those.

[hiemal]

That's fascinating, especially that last bit. I really need to read those.

I need to re-read them, it's been a while and the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Azor Ahai owes even more than I had originally speculated to Michael Moorcock's creation. Moorcock is obsessed with the Joseph Cambell-ian notion of the Eternal Champion (a darker, more modernistic spin on Cambell's archetypical  "Hero with a Thousand Faces"). The idea of successive creations (or at least civilizations and races) coupled with the ragnarok/Tuatha de Danann imagery GRRM has peppered the song with is giving me mythic wood, and including Lovecraft and Moorcock, well...

It's nerd viagra.