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ShelbySmythe

Aegon's legitimacy: does it really matter?

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There has been a flood of, 'Is Aegon a Targaryen or a Blackfyre?', type questions on these forums. My question is this: does it really matter?

 

We know that there is no true way of testing DNA in these novels, and that children's parents are determined by their physical features rather than their genes. So unless we get a confession at sword point from either Varys or Illyrio, we'll probably never find out whether he is a true dragon or not. But again, does it really matter?

 

To go to a classic Varys quote, "Power resides where men believes it resides." Even if he is a Blackfyre, all Jon Connington needs to do is present Aegon with his silver hair and purple eyes to the smallfolk and they'll believe him to be a Targaryen, solely based on his appearance. Even lesser lords who are more foolish than those in greater power will probably believe him to be a Targaryen.

 

While there is no way to prove that Aegon is in fact who he says he is, there is no way to disprove it either. And, in my opinion, silver hair and purple eyes will be enough for the people of Westeros.

 

What are your thoughts/opinions? Will Aegon have to prove his legitimacy, or will they blindly follow him due to his physical appearance, Blackfyre or not?

 

 

 

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His legitimacy will be depend on his success.  If he does well people will believe if he fails he will be a pretender.  This is in universe. Winners record the history and if he wins in the end he will be the son of Rhaegar regardless of who is actual parentage is.

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His legitimacy will be depend on his success.  If he does well people will believe if he fails he will be a pretender.  This is in universe. Winners record the history and if he wins in the end he will be the son of Rhaegar regardless of who is actual parentage is.

 

You make a good point. If he can conquer like Aegon I before him, it won't matter if he's a pretender on not. But let's assume he's not successful yet. Does his legitimacy matter to the people? If he can claim to be a Targaryen successfully, does it matter if he really is?

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At least in what respect to the people, considering all the things they've been through during the war, he could have been a black skinned dwarf claiming to be Rhaegar's son who has came to save them, and they all would be "hell yeah, fuck the Lannisters!".

 

The nobility doesn't really mind about this things. They only care about legitimacy when it's about their own blood. I'm sure mostly of them were aware that neither Joffrey or Tommen were Robert's sons, yet, supporting them gives their alleged legitimacy strength and that strength benefits them back: case in point, the Tyrells.

 

Take any House. The Tarlys, for example. There is very unlikely to have a Tarly girl marrying a King, any King. The only way they can win a King's favour is to support him. In this case, it's convenient for them to help Aegon, even if they know he's fake, because Aegon will later reward their loyalty and would be thankful. The current regime has done little for them. But, by supporting Aegon, they will get the benefits they aren't getting with Tommen. Does it matter if Aegon is fake, a commoner or some bastard? No. They won't be related by marriage: they only care about his power and they will help him to get it.

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At least in what respect to the people, considering all the things they've been through during the war, he could have been a black skinned dwarf claiming to be Rhaegar's son who has came to save them, and they all would be "hell yeah, fuck the Lannisters!".

 

The nobility doesn't really mind about this things. They only care about legitimacy when it's about their own blood. I'm sure mostly of them were aware that neither Joffrey or Tommen were Robert's sons, yet, supporting them gives their alleged legitimacy strength and that strength benefits them back: case in point, the Tyrells.

 

Take any House. The Tarlys, for example. There is very unlikely to have a Tarly girl marrying a King, any King. The only way they can win a King's favour is to support him. In this case, it's convenient for them to help Aegon, even if they know he's fake, because Aegon will later reward their loyalty and would be thankful. The current regime has done little for them. But, by supporting Aegon, they will get the benefits they aren't getting with Tommen. Does it matter if Aegon is fake, a commoner or some bastard? No. They won't be related by marriage: they only care about his power and they will help him to get it.

 

I agree. Very few would disagree with Aegon's claim if it benefited themselves. However, there are those who'd dispute his claim for honours sake (most notably Stannis and the north). If Aegon can conquer the south and crown himself King whilst Stannis freezes in the north, I'm sure he'd take it upon himself to try and overthrow Aegon if he is a Blackfyre. 

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Agree with those saying it entirely depends on how successful he is and how the other power players think it will benefit or hurt them.It doesn't matter to how things play out int he books, it only matters to us geeks who want to know ALL THE THINGS! I think even for Dany it's going to come down to, hmm, is this good for me or not? Sure, she will want to know for sure and will be conflicted about it, but I think she can convince herself of either outcome.

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I agree. Very few would disagree with Aegon's claim if it benefited themselves. However, there are those who'd dispute his claim for honours sake (most notably Stannis and the north). If Aegon can conquer the south and crown himself King whilst Stannis freezes in the north, I'm sure he'd take it upon himself to try and overthrow Aegon if he is a Blackfyre. 

 

Stannis would try to remove him even if Aegon was in fact Rhaegar himself brought back to life.

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Stannis would try to remove him even if Aegon was in fact Rhaegar himself brought back to life.

 

He's that bloody stubborn, that Stannis!

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I'm not sure it matters at all. I mean, i don't even care if he is the real Aegon or not. He doesn't have dragons, which will be crucial to the real war of Westeros. If he can't ally with Dany and prove himself a 'dragon' then the point is moot.

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Nope. There is actually no way he can conclusively prove he is Rhaegar's son. As others have already said, it depends on his success, charisma and whether enough lords consider it to be in their best interest to follow him. Whether he is the real deal or not, Dany is probably going to think that he is an imposter (given Quaithe's warning about the mummer's dragon and the HoTU vision of a cloth dragon). Seems to me that a conflict between the two is inevitable. I think Martin has alluded to there being a second DoD as well.

 

The only difference is: If he turns out to be the real deal and ends up dying in the conflict with Dany, we will probably be seeing a spike in the "Dany is a kinslayer/Dany is mad/Dany is incompetent/Dany sucks at everything" threads.

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His legitimacy will be depend on his success.  If he does well people will believe if he fails he will be a pretender.  This is in universe. Winners record the history and if he wins in the end he will be the son of Rhaegar regardless of who is actual parentage is.

Not if he's a Blackfyre.

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Well... The War of the Five Kings set the realm afire, with the issue of Joffrey's legitimacy providing the ignition and the fuel. So I would say that it kinda matters...

 

And yeah, I am pretty sure that Aegon's parentage will eventually come out, too. And it will be a big deal.

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Its about as important to the characters in the story st this juncture as my cock, to be honest. The battle lines will be drawn regardless.

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No it means nothing. Aegon the Conqueror took the realm without a birthright or a fancy name lauded by all of Westeros. Armies win wars not names, and if people *think* he's a Targaryen that only boosts his potential victory. And if he wins some battles or even the war, who is going to dare claim he isn't a Targaryen?

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Aside from the Varys quote, other characters have made the same point, so I have always agreed with the OPs premise. Aegon can also be a BF for those that want a BF, a Targ for those who want a Targ - even a Brightfyre for non existent characters who would want that. Its all really a matter of success on his part.

One of my personal opinions is that Tyrion's purpose on the boat was really a run thru for Aegon. If you can fool Tyrion Lannister......

There is really no way to prove his is real anyway, its all a matter of what people will believe.

And people appear to believe all sorts of things. Like do most people believe Tommen is an abomination of twincest and just going along with the current party line or do they believe he is the legitimate heir?

Do the Northers know right away Jeyne is a fake and they are just playing along or do they believe she is in fact Ned's girl. Well in this case it might be a difference between who has seen her and who isn't.

(If) Stannis fails and (if) Shireen never leaves CB and if Cersai is found guilty of adultery, who is then King? Its just much easier to go along with Aegon than start digging up 4th cousins from minor houses or actually acknowledging the Velaryons have the strongest claims to the throne.

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No it means nothing. Aegon the Conqueror took the realm without a birthright or a fancy name lauded by all of Westeros. Armies win wars not names, and if people *think* he's a Targaryen that only boosts his potential victory. And if he wins some battles or even the war, who is going to dare claim he isn't a Targaryen?

 

Riddle me this. If it doesn't matter, then why the fuck would they even bother with the scam, instead of betting on honesty and pressing his claim as "Young Griff, the son of Illyrio the Cheesemonger and some irrelevant gal"?

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Riddle me this. If it doesn't matter, then why the fuck would they even bother with the scam, instead of betting on honesty and pressing his claim as "Young Griff, the son of Illyrio the Cheesemonger and some irrelevant gal"?

Robert Baratheon's claim was a farce according to everyone in the realm. Everyone talks about how the throne is his because he took it, not because of familial ties from a few generations back. If he is Faegon then they call him Targaryen to gather more support then a strong army could gather. He might gain Dorne simply because he might possibly be the dead son of Doran's sister. Why bother? Because it gathers more support and helps ease him into the throne with a certain degree of legitimacy, but as mentioned previously, legitimacy doesn't mean everything as Robert was well loved with a weak claim and just sat on the throne.

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Robert Baratheon's claim was a farce according to everyone in the realm. Everyone talks about how the throne is his because he took it, not because of familial ties from a few generations back.


And why he took it? Why Robert was the leader of what by all logic should be called Jon's Rebellion? Why ruler of the relatively small and weak Stormlands, not Jon Arryn, not Ned Stark, not Hoster Tully?
 

If he is Faegon then they call him Targaryen to gather more support then a strong army could gather. He might gain Dorne simply because he might possibly be the dead son of Doran's sister. Why bother? Because it gathers more support and helps ease him into the throne with a certain degree of legitimacy, but as mentioned previously, legitimacy doesn't mean everything as Robert was well loved with a weak claim and just sat on the throne.


Oh, and I thought that didn't matter. But it seems as if those swords and spears the name Targaryen get him, could become handy. Heck, it can make a difference between the war won and lost. So I guess your "it doesn't matter" boils down to "it's absolutely crucial".

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And why he took it? Why Robert was the leader of what by all logic should be called Jon's Rebellion? Why ruler of the relatively small and weak Stormlands, not Jon Arryn, not Ned Stark, not Hoster Tully?
 


Oh, and I thought that didn't matter. But it seems as if those swords and spears the name Targaryen get him, could become handy. Heck, it can make a difference between the war won and lost. So I guess your "it doesn't matter" boils down to "it's absolutely crucial".

Everyone in the books know Robert's claim was weak and barely existent. Robert was given the throne for the plot and "reasons". 

 

The swords and spears are not crucial to Aegon but the question isn't if Aegon's name as Targaryen matters, it's if his blood matters. He can call himself a Targaryen and gather support, but it doesn't matter if he is a Targaryen because he's apparently all a king should be along with the standard Valyrian look. If he wins countless battles and/or the war, people will not openly question his legitimacy because he will be a good king. It's like with the Conqueror, he was a foreign king by conquest but was a good ruler so people accepted his rule, as what could happen with the alleged sixth of that name. 

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