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ShelbySmythe

Aegon's legitimacy: does it really matter?

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Stannis would try to remove him even if Aegon was in fact Rhaegar himself brought back to life.

 

Indeed. However, the rebels won the war, and the Baratheons are the established royal dynasty. The Targs would be the usurpers. 

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It certainly matters to Dany. If the son of the crown prince is alive and pressing his claim, she is no longer the last Targaryen heir, and the entire basis for her claim to the throne falls apart.

If she had only Jorah as an advisor on Westeros, that might not make much difference. He'd be doing everything he could to convince her to dismiss Aegon's claim--maybe he's not real, while she has dragons, and a plan to improve the lot of the smallfolk, and besides, Aegon proves that Varys and Illyrio have been playing her for her entire life and therefore they need to be defeated, and so on.

But she's got Barristan Selmy. If she tries to ignore the question of what Aegon means for her legitimacy, he'll call her on it. If she tries to evade the question by just deciding Aegon is false without any evidence, he'll call her on it. If she insists, he might go along anyway, but only after making his position clear.

So, I think the two of them are going to have some very interesting conversations in TWoW. And the question of Aegon's legitimacy will be at the forefront of those conversations. And how they answer that question will be central to Dany's character arc over the next book.

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It certainly matters to Dany. If the son of the crown prince is alive and pressing his claim, she is no longer the last Targaryen heir, and the entire basis for her claim to the throne falls apart.

If she had only Jorah as an advisor on Westeros, that might not make much difference. He'd be doing everything he could to convince her to dismiss Aegon's claim--maybe he's not real, while she has dragons, and a plan to improve the lot of the smallfolk, and besides, Aegon proves that Varys and Illyrio have been playing her for her entire life and therefore they need to be defeated, and so on.

But she's got Barristan Selmy. If she tries to ignore the question of what Aegon means for her legitimacy, he'll call her on it. If she tries to evade the question by just deciding Aegon is false without any evidence, he'll call her on it. If she insists, he might go along anyway, but only after making his position clear.

So, I think the two of them are going to have some very interesting conversations in TWoW. And the question of Aegon's legitimacy will be at the forefront of those conversations. And how they answer that question will be central to Dany's character arc over the next book.


most of Dany's conversations will be with head Dany while she she ponders how hot he is and if he is the young dragon or the mummers dragon or which ever prophecy she is obsessing on that day.

I'd just offer him a dragon and let Viserion fry the "prince". Trial by Dragon!

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most of Dany's conversations will be with head Dany while she she ponders how hot he is and if he is the young dragon or the mummers dragon or which ever prophecy she is obsessing on that day.

I'd just offer him a dragon and let Viserion fry the "prince". Trial by Dragon!

 

If Jon or Tyrion can ride a dragon due to his blood, then Aegon Blackfyre can also ride a dragon due to his Targ blood.

From the genes, Aegon is as a a Targ as Dany and Jon.

 

I honestly feel that Aegon would become a dragon rider for at least some time. He would take Rhaegal, for example.

It is boring to see Dany and Tyrion just came to town and burn everything with dragons like Aegon I.

It can not be that easy.

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It doesn't matter IMO. I have this neat little theory that the books will end without his legitimacy (or illegitimacy) being confirmed at all. Of course, that means that he will be dead before the saga is finished.

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Indeed. However, the rebels won the war, and the Baratheons are the established royal dynasty. The Targs would be the usurpers. 


I think it's interesting that so many fans perpetually make this argument, given that no one in the books has ever said anything close to it.

And That includes both Stannis "that was a hard choosing, my leiege or my blood" and Robert "all I see is Dragonspawn" Baratheon. And all of their greatest supporters. Not even Tywin.

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I think it's interesting that so many fans perpetually make this argument, given that no one in the books has ever said anything close to it.

And That includes both Stannis "that was a hard choosing, my leiege or my blood" and Robert "all I see is Dragonspawn" Baratheon. And all of their greatest supporters. Not even Tywin.


Everyone who tries to claim the Iron Throne who doesn't own it, or isn't the next candidate in a succession, is an Usurper. You don't need it spelled out. The Throne goes to Tommen's kids if Tommen dies. No one else. If the Targs aren't usurpers for trying to take the crown, then they are usurpers because they claimed the Storm Kings, the Rocks, the Kings of Winters crowns and etcetera. And the Kings of Winter are Usurpers along with the Boltons for trading their crown for generations. And the Kings of Winter are usurpers for taking the Barrow Kings crown.

See how dumb that sounds?

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Yes it does matter

i wonder fans will be ok with boltons at winterfell because now they are married to starks throught arya stark (i guess legitamcy does matter now )

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There has been a flood of, 'Is Aegon a Targaryen or a Blackfyre?', type questions on these forums. My question is this: does it really matter?

 

We know that there is no true way of testing DNA in these novels, and that children's parents are determined by their physical features rather than their genes. So unless we get a confession at sword point from either Varys or Illyrio, we'll probably never find out whether he is a true dragon or not. But again, does it really matter?

 

To go to a classic Varys quote, "Power resides where men believes it resides." Even if he is a Blackfyre, all Jon Connington needs to do is present Aegon with his silver hair and purple eyes to the smallfolk and they'll believe him to be a Targaryen, solely based on his appearance. Even lesser lords who are more foolish than those in greater power will probably believe him to be a Targaryen.

 

While there is no way to prove that Aegon is in fact who he says he is, there is no way to disprove it either. And, in my opinion, silver hair and purple eyes will be enough for the people of Westeros.

 

What are your thoughts/opinions? Will Aegon have to prove his legitimacy, or will they blindly follow him due to his physical appearance, Blackfyre or not?

 

 

I don't think he can get away without having to prove his legitimacy unless he had no opposition.  And that's just not likely.  There are many people from Essos that have the Targaryen look.  Looks alone is no proof.  Especially if the Lannister lie about Joff and Tommen comes out, then people will really be wary and suspicious of any claimant.  Like you said, no DNA testing.  I think that will always be a hurdle for Aegon, unless Dany backs him up.  His identity and his legitimacy will be considered confirmed if Dany backs up his claim.  Which I can see her doing since she really would rather tend to the slavery problem than deal with the game of thrones. 

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Yes it does matter

i wonder fans will be ok with boltons at winterfell because now they are married to starks throught arya stark (i guess legitamcy does matter now )

 

I think most people are saying that what matters to fans and what matters and is relevant to events in Westeros are different. We (readers) want the Boltons out and feel it's wrong, but in that world, the only way they will lose their position is if there is enough opposition in the form of military might to take them out. There is also a big difference between what is right or just and the reality of a situation.

 

Why do you think Manderly wants Rickon so badly? They don't feel they are strong enough or united enough to take out the Boltons as much as they hate him. Bring Rickon into the picture and people will unite behind him and give a clear rallying point and reason for the fight. Without Rickon, who would they put up as their leader? It's possible they randomly decide to put the Glovers in charge, but that's another whole discussion that wastes time and resources,. Rickon is the easy and quick answer. It's the same situation for Aegon. He's a rallying point that will unite people who might not otherwise agree on the same course of action.

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Think I said something similar in my first post here three years ago:  No.

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Quentyn had Targ blood :dunno:

 

Unless it actually wasn't the real Quentyn but that is the height of tinfoil theories.

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Unless it actually wasn't the real Quentyn but that is the height of tinfoil theories.

 

DON'T POKE THE BEAR!  (or parrot)

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What are your thoughts/opinions? Will Aegon have to prove his legitimacy, or will they blindly follow him due to his physical appearance, Blackfyre or not?

 

That would depend on how strong Aegon is.  By that, I mean how much military power he has.

 

With enough power, in terms of force of arms, he doesn't have to worry about legitimacy and technicalities like that.  He can just take the throne by conquest and impose his will on the people.  Aegon the Conqueror had no "legitimacy" on Westeros because the seven kingdoms did not exist yet.  Yet what he did was no different from what the First Men and the Andals did.  They found a land, they conquered it.  If Young Griff has enough to take the throne and subdue resistance, then legitimacy is not that important.

 

However, if Young Griff is not strong enough and he has to depend on some crap like a Great Council to decide on his behalf then yes, you bet he's going to have to prove his legitimacy.  He's weak right now and he is desperate for allies.  It looks like he will have to prove his claim.  The best way to do that is to get an endorsement from someone whose identity is beyond doubt.  We know who that is, and she has three dragons. 

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Does it matter if Aegon is legit?  Not in the least, especially given that the first Dance with Dragons proved that one does not need Targ blood to ride a dragon.

 

Does it matter if Aegon and his people present him as legit?  Absolutely, especially with Dany and her dragons (eventually) added to the mix.

 

 

As others have said, there is no definitive way to say for sure who Aegon is.  But his support in the upcoming DoD will undoubtedly depend on who people think he is.  Dorne is the easiest example.  If they believe him, then Aegon is of Dornish blood and will have their full support.  If they don't, I believe they are a vengeful enough people that denying him won't be enough, and they will want to be on the side that fights to destroy him.

 

Dany is much the same.  If she believes, it seems to me that the Targ thing to do would be to marry each other, give Aegon a dragon to ride, and reconquer the lost kingdom.  If she catches wind of him being a Blackfyre and finds more evidence to that end, I think Barristan and her other Westerosi council will use the previous rebellions to convince her to wage war on Aegon and company.

 

As a reader I want to know only to confirm or deny my own belief that Aegon is a Blackfyre, and that Illyrio and Varys knew it all along.  If the people of Westeros never know for sure, they're probably better off.

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To the readers, yes, it matters. To the story, no, it doesn't matter.

 

Same with Jon, Tyrion, or any of the other potential Targaryen bastards. Same with Jeyne "Arya Stark" Poole. Same with ANY other character that says they are someone who they are not. The only device that I could imagine that they could use to actually "prove" their legitimacy is some type of mass sorcery (possibly through weirwoods) that showed the citizens of Westeros the past. Outside of that, the accounts of the living characters is the only thing that the people have to go on, and therefor the only thing that matters. In my eyes, Aegon is already a Targaryen, regardless of whether Rhaegar and Elia actually procreated him or not. He has an army, which is probably going to grow quickly. He also has "The Look", which can not be underestimated.

 

In summation, if they can get the citizens to believe that they are legit, then they are.

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Dany is much the same.  If she believes, it seems to me that the Targ thing to do would be to marry each other, give Aegon a dragon to ride, and reconquer the lost kingdom.  If she catches wind of him being a Blackfyre and finds more evidence to that end, I think Barristan and her other Westerosi council will use the previous rebellions to convince her to wage war on Aegon and company.

A lot of readers seem to think this way--but to me, it seems odd that the Dance 2.0 would actually refer to a Sixth Blackfyre Rebellion rather than to an Anarchy-like succession war between a male heir and a female heir to the same king.

If they both had literal dragons, sure; the Dance was the last time two dragon-riding factions faced off in civil war, and that fact is maybe more salient than what they're fighting over. But I don't see where Aegon is likely to get dragons from if not Dany.

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