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ShelbySmythe

Aegon's legitimacy: does it really matter?

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As a reader I´d like to know and be able to figure out.

I don´t care one fig if in the end all the nobility has been replaced by fake bastards and the whole world buying. Just as long as I know it.

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Great point on the name difference... especially since Dance of Dragons has been with the story since early outlines.  It would be strange to have ot refer to a Blackfyre.

 

Do you believe then that male heir is Aegon?  Or is he the fake out and Jon the real male heir Dany will dance with?

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I think it's interesting that so many fans perpetually make this argument, given that no one in the books has ever said anything close to it.

And That includes both Stannis "that was a hard choosing, my leiege or my blood" and Robert "all I see is Dragonspawn" Baratheon. And all of their greatest supporters. Not even Tywin.

I think its perpertually interesting how Dany's fans always want to make the argument that Dany has always been the "true" monarch of Westeros. Evidently, this argument is made, in order to give Dany a cart blanche to make war upon Westeros under any all and all circumstances and to give her a justification to act aggressively against any noble house, to include those that had legitimate grievances against Aerys.
 
Whatever, Stannis might have said about his feelings prior to RR, the fact of the matter is that Stannis in the end backed his brother. And there is no particular reason to think that Stannis did not recognize Robert as the lawful king of Westeros. And not only did Stannis recognize Robert Baratheon's monarchy, but so did Jon Arryn, leader of the Vale, Ned Stark, leader of the North, Hoster Tully, leader of Riverlands, Twyin Lannister, leader of the Westerlands, and probably most of the lords from Robert's ancestral home, the Stormlands. Yet, somehow, according to Dany's fans, Robert's recognized legitimacy is or was in serious doubt.
 
I have no idea exactly what makes "a true king" or "a true queen". I'd suspect though that answer to that question is the same answer to Varsys riddle, it's "what men believe". Of course, some men's beliefs are certainly more reasonable than others. I'd say the men who raised Robert to throne had a reasonable set of beliefs, in that Aerys was no longer their monarch, nor did they owe any particular fealty to House Targaryen because of Aerys actions which violated established norms within Westeros. Evidently, however, some of Dany's fans would like to maintain that Dany has "been the rightful Queen all along." 

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In my humble opinion, I don't think Aegon's legitimacy will matter because when the Winds of Winter arrives so will the Others.

 

I do not believe that the people of westeros will care at this point who should be the rightful person to the throne.

 

If he  is legitimate, the question will be if he could keep power in westeros. I think the answer is no.

 

He will have his hands full in trying to control kings landing, the entire south, and the north, and the others and when Daenerys decides to come to westeros.

 

It would not matter.

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At least in what respect to the people, considering all the things they've been through during the war, he could have been a black skinned dwarf claiming to be Rhaegar's son who has came to save them, and they all would be "hell yeah, fuck the Lannisters!".

 

The nobility doesn't really mind about this things. They only care about legitimacy when it's about their own blood. I'm sure mostly of them were aware that neither Joffrey or Tommen were Robert's sons, yet, supporting them gives their alleged legitimacy strength and that strength benefits them back: case in point, the Tyrells.

 

Take any House. The Tarlys, for example. There is very unlikely to have a Tarly girl marrying a King, any King. The only way they can win a King's favour is to support him. In this case, it's convenient for them to help Aegon, even if they know he's fake, because Aegon will later reward their loyalty and would be thankful. The current regime has done little for them. But, by supporting Aegon, they will get the benefits they aren't getting with Tommen. Does it matter if Aegon is fake, a commoner or some bastard? No. They won't be related by marriage: they only care about his power and they will help him to get it.

I find it hard believe to believe that Varys and illyrio would try to put a fake boy on the throne to depose fake kings. Cercei set yourself up so bad by doing that, Littlefinger is setting himself for an L with Jenye poole.  He just seems too smart for the same tactic.

 

There has been a flood of, 'Is Aegon a Targaryen or a Blackfyre?', type questions on these forums. My question is this: does it really matter?

 

We know that there is no true way of testing DNA in these novels, and that children's parents are determined by their physical features rather than their genes. So unless we get a confession at sword point from either Varys or Illyrio, we'll probably never find out whether he is a true dragon or not. But again, does it really matter?

 

To go to a classic Varys quote, "Power resides where men believes it resides." Even if he is a Blackfyre, all Jon Connington needs to do is present Aegon with his silver hair and purple eyes to the smallfolk and they'll believe him to be a Targaryen, solely based on his appearance. Even lesser lords who are more foolish than those in greater power will probably believe him to be a Targaryen.

 

While there is no way to prove that Aegon is in fact who he says he is, there is no way to disprove it either. And, in my opinion, silver hair and purple eyes will be enough for the people of Westeros.

 

What are your thoughts/opinions? Will Aegon have to prove his legitimacy, or will they blindly follow him due to his physical appearance, Blackfyre or not?

 

 

 

It does matter now, dragons are back on the scene. The magic in the blood of the targs control the dragons. Both Aegon, son of Elia and Aegon, far flung blackfyre descendant both have heavily deluded blood. The more deluded the less likely they are to reign in a dragon. Aegon, son of Elia have the better of controlling a dragon than a blackfyre.

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I find it hard believe to believe that Varys and illyrio would try to put a fake boy on the throne to depose fake kings. Cercei set yourself up so bad by doing that, Littlefinger is setting himself for an L with Jenye poole.  He just seems too smart for the same tactic.

 

It does matter now, dragons are back on the scene. The magic in the blood of the targs control the dragons. Both Aegon, son of Elia and Aegon, far flung blackfyre descendant both have heavily deluded blood. The more deluded the less likely they are to reign in a dragon. Aegon, son of Elia have the better of controlling a dragon than a blackfyre.

 

Why? Their blood was both diluted a lot. Honestly Daemon's targ blood is equally pure to his brother. they may have internal marriage later too. Like Daemon's daughter married her uncle, something like that.

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Why? Their blood was both diluted a lot. Honestly Daemon's targ blood is equally pure to his brother. they may have internal marriage later too. Like Daemon's daughter married her uncle, something like that.

  1. Not as much you might think. Yeah they may stray maybe once or twice in the past, but compare that to the Blackfyres
  2. Most of the men keep dying in the Blackfyre rebellions and the last male Blackfyre died 40+ years ago. If (which is a MEGA BIG IF) their female still left, they would have to mate outside the line. Diluted !!!

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That would depend on how strong Aegon is.  By that, I mean how much military power he has.

 

With enough power, in terms of force of arms, he doesn't have to worry about legitimacy and technicalities like that.  He can just take the throne by conquest and impose his will on the people.  Aegon the Conqueror had no "legitimacy" on Westeros because the seven kingdoms did not exist yet.  Yet what he did was no different from what the First Men and the Andals did.  They found a land, they conquered it.  If Young Griff has enough to take the throne and subdue resistance, then legitimacy is not that important.

 

However, if Young Griff is not strong enough and he has to depend on some crap like a Great Council to decide on his behalf then yes, you bet he's going to have to prove his legitimacy.  He's weak right now and he is desperate for allies.  It looks like he will have to prove his claim.  The best way to do that is to get an endorsement from someone whose identity is beyond doubt.  We know who that is, and she has three dragons. 

 

Ah, yes.  The Might Makes Right argument. 

 

Aegon the Conqueror, the First Men, and the Andals all conquered the western continent.  You can say a conqueror can rule by right of conquest.  But it really is defined by having the power to take what you want.  Eventually, over time, if you can build a dynasty, you have legacy and your dynasty becomes tradition. 

 

Getting back to Varys' riddle, that power resides where men believe it resides.  That is true to some extent.  But a lot of times, if the power broker's strength is overwhelming, men may accept his/her rule despite not buying into its legitimacy.  In other words, they choose to submit rather than perish.  The Umbers may believe Roose is a usurper, but they accept his rule because he has leverage over them. 

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A fake targaryen who wins the war would still be king....and a targaryen to the history book. Militaries and political intrigue will decide.

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Great point on the name difference... especially since Dance of Dragons has been with the story since early outlines.  It would be strange to have ot refer to a Blackfyre.

 

Do you believe then that male heir is Aegon?  Or is he the fake out and Jon the real male heir Dany will dance with?

Jon is not going to waste time fighting a war with Dany over a chair he doesn't want and doesn't know he has any claim to.  There's a major threat to all mankind riding in on the winds of winter.  All of his energies will be focused on that.

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It doesn't matter IMO. I have this neat little theory that the books will end without his legitimacy (or illegitimacy) being confirmed at all. Of course, that means that he will be dead before the saga is finished.

Very likely, on both counts.

 

 

 

Quentyn had Targ blood :dunno:

Quentyn was not killed by the dragon he was trying to ride.  Rhaegal was throwing a jealous fit.

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Very likely, on both counts.

 

 

Quentyn was not killed by the dragon he was trying to ride.  Rhaegal was throwing a jealous fit.

 

Rhaegal has a several case of "maybe I got Viserys spirit on me". Viserys is the one who is more like Rhaegar despite the name: he seems ok. with having Martells mounting him :smug:

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Stannis would try to remove him even if Aegon was in fact Rhaegar himself brought back to life.

I don't know about that.  For one thing Stannis knows about the Others.  If the Others aren't stopped there won't be an Iron Throne over which to fight.

 

Also Stannis had a hard time choosing between his king and his brother last time around.  If he sees in Aegon a chance to make up for having broken his fealty to Aerys, he just might support the kid.

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