Minkowski Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 A song of ice and fire Jon and white walkers is ice vs aegon and dragons are fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregg22 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I was just doing my first reread of ACoK and came across this line when Tyrion is sniffing out the mole on the Small Council during his conversation with Varys. Page 276 in mass market paperback. (Varys to Tyrion) "The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his {Doran Martell's} allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe." Babe....singular. Elia had two children. Thoughts? It may be more than just a hint about Aegon being alive. If you take it a step further and really listen to what he says, it could indicate that Doran Martell also knows Aegon is alive. If Doran only mourns one "babe" then he would have to know that the other lives. OR (to make your brain hurt even more)... Varys is saying that Doran Martell believes Aegon to be alive at least. If you were going to pull a fAegon as many believe Varys has, why not rope in the Dornish and let them believe you are keeping the real Aegon. Keeps them close, and keeps them patient, and obviously they will never reveal your secret. But the main point, Varys doesn't say only one of Elia's kids died, just that Doran believes that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Agreed, I think there is zero chance Doran thinks Aegon is alive, otherwise his plan would make absolutely no sense. I was more so playing Devil's advocate with that question. True but I really think that Doran's plan as we currently have been told isn't the true plan. Doran plays his cards too close to his chest to reveal the true extent of his machinations to Arianne. Its probably just wish fulfillment on my part :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 A song of ice and fire Jon and white walkers is ice vs aegon and dragons are fire Jon is most likely Rhaegar's son which means he is half fire himself--and half ice. Aegon has no dragons, and we have yet to learn whether he's actually who he thinks he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Jon is most likely Rhaegar's son which means he is half fire himself--and half ice. Im not a member of the r+l=j club, though i definitely buy into it, id even say i believe it. but what do people think is actually going to happen if jon finds out about his heritage? "well, thats that. im legitimate king. forget those stark assholes, my place is on the iron throne. white walkers? fuck no, politics for me" *skidaddles to king's landing on a dragon that appears out of nowhere because it's his birthright* truth is, even if he is half targ, he's not pursuing the throne, and he wont be king. he is more likely to become the next nk before even desiring to be a part of westeros politics. and i dont think the story will play out like, "phew, looks like this whole wall thing is wrapped up. just look at those dead Others ghost, good job. ON to kings landing HYAH!" The ONLY way I see Jon even THINKING of going to king's landing, is if (and it COULD happen) Daenerys/Victarian alliance, Daenerys becomes Moqorro's azor ahai, and king's landing is reaped in chaos, fire and blood (Daenerys finally snaps). In which case the ONLY alternative, would be for Jon to lead the Others/Wights to save westeros from targaryen tyranny. and thats a BIG what if scenario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Amey Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 GRRM drop the first hint about Aegon's Survival after the first book in a small letter (Don't asked me where is) when some asked if Aegon and Rhaenys were indeed dead? He conform Rhaenys's demise but got really quiet concerning Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Im not a member of the r+l=j club, though i definitely buy into it, id even say i believe it. but what do people think is actually going to happen if jon finds out about his heritage? "well, thats that. im legitimate king. forget those stark assholes, my place is on the iron throne. white walkers? fuck no, politics for me" *skidaddles to king's landing on a dragon that appears out of nowhere because it's his birthright* truth is, even if he is half targ, he's not pursuing the throne, and he wont be king. he is more likely to become the next nk before even desiring to be a part of westeros politics. and i dont think the story will play out like, "phew, looks like this whole wall thing is wrapped up. just look at those dead Others ghost, good job. ON to kings landing HYAH!" The ONLY way I see Jon even THINKING of going to king's landing, is if (and it COULD happen) Daenerys/Victarian alliance, Daenerys becomes Moqorro's azor ahai, and king's landing is reaped in chaos, fire and blood (Daenerys finally snaps). In which case the ONLY alternative, would be for Jon to lead the Others/Wights to save westeros from targaryen tyranny. and thats a BIG what if scenario I feel that Jon will pull off a sort of Cregan Stark 2.0 to parallel the first DoD. Per a pet theory I have, Westeros will have some sort of voting system to elect rulers at the end of the series. Enter Jon who (either as Hand or as King) sets up an election system similar to the Night's Watch. This would also parallel Aegon I in a fashion, when another system (The Kingsguard) was set up to mirror the Night's Watch. I don't think "ice and fire" would be so literal to have one Targ using dragons and another using wights/Others. (But who knows? I could be wrong.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpiginsunspear Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 There's another potential hint in this chapter (ACoK, Tyrion IV), a few lines after the one the OP mentions.http://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=my+little+birds+tell+me+that+princess+elia&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=acok Varys mentions that Elia called out "a certain name" when the Lannisters came for her. Tyrion misunderstands the hint and thinks Varys is referring to Gregor Clegane. Varys drops the subject and plays along with what Tyrion assumes. After all, why would Elia call out the name of her killer? I believe that Varys is referring to a situation similar to that of Halaena Targaryen, who had to pick which child had to die ala Blood and Cheese during the Dance of the Dragons. That is, she called out "Aegon," whether she literally did or not. In her case, Elia had to either trust Varys and give up her son, or risk losing BOTH of her children. wow +1 for Aegon being real...still skeptical, but great catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErasmusF Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Varys wants people to believe Aegon is real. So he might be planting a seed, especially with Tyrion, to say "remember that convo we had about Doran being sentimental... I said 'babe' not babies." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Varys wants people to believe Aegon is real. So he might be planting a seed, especially with Tyrion, to say "remember that convo we had about Doran being sentimental... I said 'babe' not babies."Interesting point. Does Varys ever refer to Rhaegar's deceased offspring in the plural? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Im not a member of the r+l=j club, though i definitely buy into it, id even say i believe it. but what do people think is actually going to happen if jon finds out about his heritage? "well, thats that. im legitimate king. forget those stark assholes, my place is on the iron throne. white walkers? fuck no, politics for me" *skidaddles to king's landing on a dragon that appears out of nowhere because it's his birthright* truth is, even if he is half targ, he's not pursuing the throne, and he wont be king. he is more likely to become the next nk before even desiring to be a part of westeros politics. and i dont think the story will play out like, "phew, looks like this whole wall thing is wrapped up. just look at those dead Others ghost, good job. ON to kings landing HYAH!" The ONLY way I see Jon even THINKING of going to king's landing, is if (and it COULD happen) Daenerys/Victarian alliance, Daenerys becomes Moqorro's azor ahai, and king's landing is reaped in chaos, fire and blood (Daenerys finally snaps). In which case the ONLY alternative, would be for Jon to lead the Others/Wights to save westeros from targaryen tyranny. and thats a BIG what if scenario It really depends on which R+L=J person you're asking. I certainly don't think he's going to want to claim the throne, or even think he has a claim to it. He's got bigger (and colder) fish to fry. I expect him to either go through a little identity crisis, or say "I don't have time for an identity crisis yet. Let's go kill some Others!" and get on with things. I don't see Jon ever going to King's Landing myself, even if someone declared him king. He'd stay where the danger is. Cersei could blow up KL (I don't actually think she'll live long enough) and Jon would still be at the Wall, trying to keep the Others from coming in. And really the only people who would even think about crowning him would be Stannis and Dany, if they found out he's a legitimate or legitimized son of Rhaegar's. In that case they'd have to go to the Wall to find him and he'd be like "Yeah, I'm king, whatever. Got any dragonsteel?" After Westeros is safe, if Jon's even alive, King's Landing probably won't still exist. Some how, some way, that city will burn. So if Jon is alive and king, he has to relocate or rebuild the capital. And he'd probably want to go with relocating. Winterfell isn't central enough, unless the land north of the Wall is now added--but even then Jon is no Stark. So I'd vote for building a new capital. GRRM has said he read about how Aragorn ruled wisely and well for so many years, and he wondered what that means. He specifically mentioned wondering what Aragorn's tax policy was, so if we get some kind of obligatory epilogue or afterword, I expect something about Jon's tax policy. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 It really depends on which R+L=J person you're asking. I certainly don't think he's going to want to claim the throne, or even think he has a claim to it. He's got bigger (and colder) fish to fry. I expect him to either go through a little identity crisis, or say "I don't have time for an identity crisis yet. Let's go kill some Others!" and get on with things. I don't see Jon ever going to King's Landing myself, even if someone declared him king. He'd stay where the danger is. Cersei could blow up KL (I don't actually think she'll live long enough) and Jon would still be at the Wall, trying to keep the Others from coming in. And really the only people who would even think about crowning him would be Stannis and Dany, if they found out he's a legitimate or legitimized son of Rhaegar's. In that case they'd have to go to the Wall to find him and he'd be like "Yeah, I'm king, whatever. Got any dragonsteel?" After Westeros is safe, if Jon's even alive, King's Landing probably won't still exist. Some how, some way, that city will burn. So if Jon is alive and king, he has to relocate or rebuild the capital. And he'd probably want to go with relocating. Winterfell isn't central enough, unless the land north of the Wall is now added--but even then Jon is no Stark. So I'd vote for building a new capital. GRRM has said he read about how Aragorn ruled wisely and well for so many years, and he wondered what that means. He specifically mentioned wondering what Aragorn's tax policy was, so if we get some kind of obligatory epilogue or afterword, I expect something about Jon's tax policy. :D Well, 3 dragons, hidden wildfire caches scattered throughout king's landing. Whats the worst that could happen? ....AND THEN THEY ALL SIT UP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Well, 3 dragons, hidden wildfire caches scattered throughout king's landing. Whats the worst that could happen? ....AND THEN THEY ALL SIT UP Lead the whitewalkers into King's Landing, then BOOM! It might not be Cersei who destroys King's Landing via wildfire after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Lead the whitewalkers into King's Landing, then BOOM! It might not be Cersei who destroys King's Landing via wildfire after all. That's kind of what I was thinking too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 That's kind of what I was thinking too.There is a bit of foreshadowing for this... The thought of home disquieted her. If her sun-and-stars had lived, he would have led his khalasar across the poison water and swept away her enemies, but his strength had left the world. Her bloodriders remained, sworn to her for life and skilled in slaughter, but only in the ways of the horselords. The Dothraki sacked cities and plundered kingdoms, they did not rule them. Dany had no wish to reduce King's Landing to a blackened ruin full of unquiet ghosts. She had supped enough on tears. I want to make my kingdom beautiful, to fill it with fat men and pretty maids and laughing children. I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father. But before she could do that she must conquer.Daenerys II, Clash 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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