Jump to content

Krakenbowl: Get Hype! (Deaths of Barristan and Jorah)


Mithras

Recommended Posts

I posted this theory in another thread but now with some additions and heavy editing, I am making a standalone thread. The theory is that Barristan will be slain by Victarion in Meereen. As far as I remember, Fire Eater, Ser Wun Wun and tze have brought up some clues of this theory in various threads.

 

I think there is considerable foreshadowing for the death of Barristan by Victarion.

 

Ser Barristan felt very tired, very old. Where have all the years gone? Of late, whenever he knelt to drink from a still pool, he saw a stranger’s face gazing up from the water’s depths.

                             

Stranger is the god of death in the Faith of the Seven. Krakens are said to rise from the water’s depths. Barristan seeing a stranger’s face gazing up from the depths means that a kraken is coming to slay him.

 

He [Victarion] would give half his teeth for the chance to try his axe against the Kingslayer or the Knight of Flowers.

 

Jaime and Loras were two Lord Commanders of the Kingsguard. Victarion’s dream might come true when he meets Barristan.

 

Two more hints come from TWoW Barristan chapters:

 

[spoiler]

Before joining the Battle of Fire, Barristan leaves the charge of the city to the Widower, a huge captain of Stormcrows with a large axe (just like Victarion, a huge captain with a large axe). That can be read as Barristan, who is practically the supreme ruler of Meereen as the Hand of the Queen in Dany's absence, will be succeeded by Victarion.

 

During the battle, Barristan likens the arrival of Victarion to the Hammer and Anvil. Noting that the Anvil (Maekar) ended up killing the Hammer (Baelor Breakspear) in a trial by seven, one of them seems like goner and that one will be Barristan who is the Hand of the Queen just like Baelor was the Hand of the King when he was slain.

[/spoiler]

 

With so many alarming signs of death looming over Barristan, we should look for a context that could make a deathmatch between Barristan and Victarion plausible.

 

The question is how can Vicky and Barry fight to death while they are presumably on the same side?

 

The answer is probably similar to how Maekar killed his elder brother Baelor, i.e. in a trial by combat.

 

Then, we should ask what the subject of such a trial by combat could possibly be. I will build a possible context in the spoiler tag below where minor spoilers from TWoW might leak in:

 

[spoiler]

First of all, we should all assume that The Yunkish Federation will be defeated in the Battle of Fire. The only question is how much loss Team Dany will suffer. I think a clean-cut victory is not George’s way and the Yunkish Federation (despite all their mummery) still has the capacity to inflict casualties. They have elephants and the legions of New Ghis might kill many Unsullied before being defeated. I think no faction in Team Dany will emerge unscathed from the battle. I expect considerable casualties especially in the Unsullied.

 

After the battle, Barristan will still assume to be the Hand of the Queen. But there will be other players who will want to challenge the position of Barristan due to their own interests. So, there will be a problem of who should have the supreme power in Meereen.

 

Barristan will have the support of the Unsullied, Mother’s Men, his newly trained knights, and the remaining Dothraki. That should be more or less the only factions that Barristan can confidently claim. Shavepate and the Brazen Beasts are not trustworthy for any party. Stormcrows is led by the Widower, a sour man, and their allegiance to Barristan might shift if Daario cannot be saved alive. Even then, Daario is not fond of Barristan. Yes, Barristan made a deal with the Tattered Prince and the Windblown turned their cloaks as he planned. But Tatters can make the same deal (Pentos) with other factions too. After all, Barristan is not the first person he made a deal to get Pentos. I do not think that the support of the Windblown to Barristan is guaranteed.

 

On the other hand, there will be the Second Sons who will claim that they have always been loyal to Dany and their betrayal was a ruse. Tyrion and BBP are not fools to think that they will automatically accepted back to Team Dany, especially by Barristan whose scorn to the slippery nature of the sellswords should not be secret. Therefore, if possible, Tyrion will prefer another ruler that is in need of an ally like the Second Sons, one is corrupt/pragmatic/controllable enough to take the Second Sons back.

 

This is where Victarion steps in. Note that Victarion’s reavers are outnumbered by Barristan’s troops. Hence, they cannot force their will by brute force. Even if Victarion manages to bind Rhaegal by the horn, Rhaegal is still not large enough to carry him, nor has Victarion any idea to make a saddle as Targaryens used or general dragon keeping. These are the points where Tyrion can appeal to Victarion. Moqorro is a mutual friend of Victarion and Tyrion. Victarion is a natural follower but by the time he comes to Meereen, he has developed delusions of grandeur. His ego has swollen and if he successfully binds Rhaegal to his will, he will be even more arrogant. That means he will want to have the supreme power in the absence of Dany, especially if he binds Rhaegal to his will.

 

There is another serious point of conflict between Victarion and Barristan. Victarion wants to kill Hizdahr to free Dany’s hand of marriage and if he learns about Daario, he would certainly kill him too, assuming Daario is saved alive. Barristan OTOH does not agree to execute Hizdahr until he is proven guilty. This brings the Shavepate closer to Victarion/Tyrion block.

 

Another important source of possible conflict is that Victarion has absolutely no urge to stay and rule Meereen. In fact, he wants to get Dany/dragons and leave Meereen ASAP before the Volantene Fleet comes. Learning that Dany is not present, he might think of taking a dragon or two, having replenishments and leaving the city immediately, be it for Westeros or other slaver cities ripe for sacking before the Volantene Fleet blocks the way out. Well, Barristan wuld have none of that. He will not give the ironborn supplies, gold and allow them to sail away with one of Dany’s dragons or two and leaving Dany’s people alone with the incoming Volantene Fleet.

 

So, there are enough reasons to believe that Victarion and Barristan will have a serious disagreement about the course of action in the aftermath of the Battle of Fire. Tyrion will definitely prefer the easy-to-manipulate Victarion over Barristan who has the reservation to not welcome the Second Sons back. Shavepate will surely find Victarion more sympathetic to his line of thought as they both want to kill Hizdahr and Victarion will not hesitate in butchering the Sons of the Harpy.

 

But there is one big obstacle to all: no side of the conflict could dare make a war at such a condition. They will all die if they start killing each other at the onset of the Volantene Fleet’s arrival.

 

Luckily, there is an easier and much less bloody way of solving such conflicts. Victarion, with the help and suggestion of Tyrion, Moqorro and Shavepate, can challenge Barristan to a trial by combat to let the gods decide which of them is worthy to rule in Dany’s absence. So, a duel instead of a full scale war can decide the matter in a fast manner without further bloodshed. This will also mean that the possible casualties in the trial by combat will not be considered as murders.

 

Another important point to consider is that even if Jorah hates Victarion and the ironborn by definition, he now hates Barristan more. He is a man who blames others for his own failures and he should fully blame Barristan for his second exile just like he blames Ned for his first exile. More importantly, he will want to kill Victarion as Victarion will not hide his intention to marry Dany, something which Jorah cannot tolerate.

 

[/spoiler]

This is how the scene might be set up for a trial by combat to decide the next ruler of Meereen until Dany returns.

 

I used to think that Victarion will fight against seven champions of Barristan one by one or a classical trial by seven will be invoked. But now that I think about it, a Georgian melee of seven champions is more likely with so many poles vying for power. Each champion will fight for himself and the last man standing will assume the power.

 

Among the participants of this contest, Victarion and Barristan are must. Jorah will step forward too as he hates Barristan and will desire a position of power before Dany appears. After all, he must prove resourceful or Dany will not be merciful if they meet again.

 

I do not think there will be other participants of particular importance. Daario, if he survives will surely accept the challenge. There might be delusional pit fighters. Or rather more likely, former gladiators working for the Harpy or the Shavepate might enter the list. Though every one of them will fight for their own, quick alliances will be made and unmade upon the sands as expected from George’s notion of melees.

 

In the end, Victarion will end up slaying both Barristan and Jorah and he will be the last man standing. But he will be seriously wounded and need another magic healing by Moqorro.

 

As for further textual evidences supporting this theory:

 

This is given in one of Victarion’s chapters:

 

“The Knight’s to have Greyshield. My cousin. Did you hear?”

“No.” Victarion looked across the hall, to where Ser Harras Harlaw sat drinking wine from a golden cup; a tall man, long-faced and austere. “Why would Euron give that one an island?”

Hotho held out his empty wine cup, and a pale young woman in a gown of blue velvet and gilt lace refilled it for him. “The Knight took Grimston by himself. He planted his standard beneath the castle and defied the Grimms to face him. One did, and then another, and another. He slew them all . . . well, near enough, two yielded. When the seventh man went down, Lord Grimm’s septon decided the gods had spoken and surrendered the castle.”

 

“Seven, you say.” Victarion wondered how Nightfall would fare against his axe. He had never fought a man armed with a Valyrian steel blade, though he had thrashed young Harras Harlaw many a time when both of them were young.

 

So, this idea was planted in Victarion’s mind and George can bring it up if he wants. BTW, Caggo Corpsekiller from the Windblown has a Valyran steel Arakh. Perhaps he could join the contest in the name of Tatters and Victarion gets his chance to try his axe against Valyrian steel blade.

 

Another possible clue comes from the World Book.

 

The Faith Militant Uprising was raging on upon Maegor’s coronation. He mounted Balerion and set for King’s Landing, to crush the uprising. Landing on Visenya's hill he planted his standard, rallying his supporters to him. Visenya challenged those who questioned her son’s right to rule to prove themselves. This challenge was accepted by the Captain of the Warrior’s Sons. Ser Damon Morrigen challenged Maegor to a Trial of Seven, which Maegor accepted. Ser Damon and six Warrior Sons fought against the King and his six champions. In the end, only King Maegor was left alive. The other thirteen participants were dead. Maegor took a blow to the head, however, and collapsed just as the last Warrior’s Son died. He went into a coma, which lasted a month. On the twenty-eighth day of Maegor’s coma, Queen Alys Harroway returned from Pentos, bringing with her Tyanna of the Tower, who had become Maegor’s lover during his exile. It is implied that Maegor was healed (maybe even resurrected) by the sorcery of Tyanna.

 

There are a lot of similarities between Victarion and Maegor. Both are huge warriors, having wed multiple times and failed to produce offspring. Both have cruel streaks and in the case of Maegor, it becomes clinical. Just like Maegor; Victarion might

  • step forward as a dragonrider to challenge anyone who defies his rule.
  • survive the contest as the last man standing with deadly wounds.
  • be healed by magic.

Another possible foreshadowing to the duel between Victarion and Jorah is this:

 

Next a bull was set against a bear in a bloody battle that left both animals torn and dying.

 

Victarion is likened to a bull many times in the text. After Barristan is dead, Victarion and Jorah could be the only survivors on the arena. They will naturally fight and mortally wound each other. Victarion will have Moqorro for those wounds while Jorah has no one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see the something along these lines in terms of the fates of the characters but I think it will go down differently. Good theory and post though - well thought out and structured. I'd give you a high-five if it were possible.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Victarion killing Barry Makes total sense & is like to happen.

 

Barry is old. Barry wants to die a good death in battle, a warrior's death--Vic is a worthy opponent.  Barry is mostly irrelevant after Yunkish are defeated.  Shavepate, Vic/Tyrion/Moqorro ruling Mereen sounds about right.  They will get shit done.

 

Vic & Tyrion together would be absolute comedy gold.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would love this... I know Barristan is going to die, I just hope it's fighting for Dany and has some significance.

 

In regards to the theory, isn't Barristan the current ruler now?  He commands the Unsullied, his own force of knights, etc.  I get that they'd be bloodied after the battle, but why would anyone listen to Victarion (apart from his men)?  My point is that if there is a disagreement I don't see why it would be too much of a conflict- Barristan's word seems to be final unless Vicatrion is openly hostile/attacks Barristan and his forces.

Another problem I have is with the Trial by Combat.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't someone have to commit a crime to be judged by trial by combat?  I.e. it's a mechanism to determine guilt, not to make important decisions (again, correct me if I'm wrong).

More importantly, I highly doubt the Unsullied and the remaining folks from Essos would know what a Trial by Combat is, let alone respect its results.

 

In either case, great theory!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The part about Vic actually getting a dragon is the part I have a hard time swallowing.  But if he doesn't get a dragon its hard to see how he holds sway like you claim.  I personally don't think the sellsword captains would be so quick to abandon Dany like you propose they would either, and Moqorro betraying Dany sounds ludicrous given that he is a religious fanatic who literally views her as messiah.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would love this... I know Barristan is going to die, I just hope it's fighting for Dany and has some significance.

 

In regards to the theory, isn't Barristan the current ruler now?  He commands the Unsullied, his own force of knights, etc.  I get that they'd be bloodied after the battle, but why would anyone listen to Victarion (apart from his men)?  My point is that if there is a disagreement I don't see why it would be too much of a conflict- Barristan's word seems to be final unless Vicatrion is openly hostile/attacks Barristan and his forces.

Another problem I have is with the Trial by Combat.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't someone have to commit a crime to be judged by trial by combat?  I.e. it's a mechanism to determine guilt, not to make important decisions (again, correct me if I'm wrong).

More importantly, I highly doubt the Unsullied and the remaining folks from Essos would know what a Trial by Combat is, let alone respect its results.

 

In either case, great theory!!

 

Thanks.

 

As I tried to elaborate in the spoiler tag, Barristan will not let Victarion do as he pleases. Hence, Victarion needs to take the command in which he needs allies. Tyrion and the Second Sons will be his natural allies because they can never be sure that Barristan or Dany will not kill them for traitors. Victarion will need the Second Sons and the Second Sons will need him. Tatters can be won to Victarion’s cause as well. All he wants is Pentos. Shavepate will surely want to remove Barristan as he is too stiff for his purposes (which involve butchering Hizdahr and other Great Masters).

 

Meanwhile, Victarion has to take the power in a legal manner without bloodshed.

 

And no, trial by combat is not always invoked in a criminal case. The example I gave, Maegor against the champions of the Faith, is where we do not have a criminal case.

 

Barristan knows the trial by combat and that should be enough if he accepts to the challenge. Besides, I think condemned criminals are given a weapon and forced to fight in the pit against the pit fighters IIRC. So, if they can win those fights, I think they are declared innocent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The part about Vic actually getting a dragon is the part I have a hard time swallowing.  But if he doesn't get a dragon its hard to see how he holds sway like you claim.  I personally don't think the sellsword captains would be so quick to abandon Dany like you propose they would either, and Moqorro betraying Dany sounds ludicrous given that he is a religious fanatic who literally views her as messiah.

 

Going against Barristan does not mean abandoning Dany. Sellsword captains are no fools. If they believe that Barristan will lead them to their doom, they will surely abandon him. They all know that the Volantene Fleet is coming and they cannot wait for Dany’s return to Meereen. They should either make preparations to face them immediately or flee. Without the Greyjoy Fleet, they cannot hope to stand against the Volantene Fleet.

 

Besides, I never said that Moqorro will betray Dany. Since we met him, Moqorro is doing his best to bring the people that can actually help Dany. Making Victarion Dany’s supreme commander and attaching Tyrion to his side is a great boon to Dany, something she needs right now in her absence.

 

I don’t think Barristan would give two figs to Moqorro or the Red Religion but if Victarion and Tyrion rise to the position of command, Moqorro as their friend will have a great chance to approach Dany.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The part about Vic actually getting a dragon is the part I have a hard time swallowing.  But if he doesn't get a dragon its hard to see how he holds sway like you claim.  I personally don't think the sellsword captains would be so quick to abandon Dany like you propose they would either, and Moqorro betraying Dany sounds ludicrous given that he is a religious fanatic who literally views her as messiah.


Yeah, I don't see Euron letting Vic get his hands on a dragon either, but a lot of this is really great.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I like your theory, but I have a few qualms about it:

 

  • Tyrion siding with Victarion: Tyrion seems pretty sure throughout ADWD that Dany will pardon and accept him, as he himself has commited no direct crime against the Targaryen dynasty, he has helped punish those who have (Stannis, Tywin), he is an exile from Westeros like her, and he is willing to share information and knowledge that will greatly aid her attempts to win the Iron Throne. From what he says to Young Griff/Aegon over Cyvasse, he understands her character well enough to be confident that she would accept him. This leaves me pretty sure that he'd carry on supporting Dany, or her Hand in her absence. Furthermore, he and Victarion are two very different people, who want very different things. Tyrion is motivated almost solely by revenge against Cersei and Jaime, and Victarion is motivated by lust for power and hatred of Euron. Victarion's lust for Dany is more to spite his brother than otherwise.
  • Daario: Daario is motivated by his love for Dany, so naturally he will support Barristan as her Hand. He does not see Barristan as a rival for Dany's love, and he knows that to side against him would incur Dany's anger. Why then, would Daario turn against Barristan, especially when Daario needs him to help run the city.
  • Brown Ben Plumm and Tyrion: In ADWD, Tyrion seems to have convinced Plumm that he needs to switch back to Dany's side, as the Yunkai'i are clearly going to lose, as Jorah says. Even if Plumm decides to defy Tyrion, Tyrion would never make good on his contract to restore Plumm to the position of a (very rich) lord.
  • The Shavepate, as far as we know, is loyal to Dany. There is no evidence beyond speculative to indicate that this is not the case.
  • Your assumption that Victarion will side against Dany: Victarion seems to appreciate that he needs Dany's help to defeat his brother. He appears to be willing to aid her ('The most beautiful woman in the world has urgent need of my axe'), and to understand that ,even with the horn, he will still need Dany on his side, if for no other reason than to spite his brother. Even a dullard like Victarion could understand that if he kills Dany's most trusted advisor, she'll never agree to help him.
  • This v. Like Victarion, why would Moqorro betray his messiah's deputy?

     Moqorro betraying Dany sounds ludicrous given that he is a religious fanatic who literally views her as messiah.

                                                                                 

  • Jorah loves Dany more than his own freedom or honour. That's why he decided to take Tyrion to her instead of to Cersei, who would have been more sure to reward him (especially as he had no cause to love the Starks). However, he understands honour. Therefore I think he'll swallow his pride and make peace with Barristan, as he knows that siding against him will not endear him to Dany (yes, I know I'm using the 'Don't attack Barristan to keep on good terms with Dany' arguement a lot, but it's true).

  • Similarities do not necessarily show the future: Your two quotes in blue at the start about Barristan being killed by Victarion are interesting, and I hate to play devil's advocate when I say that it may mean nothing. That being said, it could mean everything, and well spotted!

  • Finally, your point about Moqorro helping Victarion but not Jorah: surely he would have even more cause to aid Jorah, as he used to be a trusted advisor of Dany's, and may still have influence with her. Even if he didn't want to heal Jorah for Jorah, he must appreciate that offering Jorah as a token of goodwill to Dany would earn him no small amount of goodwill, whereas if he only healed Victarion, Dany would see a sorcerer of dubious intent, who had healed the killer of her once-best friend, the man who had sailed half the world to possibly steal her dragons and carry her off as a slave-bride. However, as Moqorro is such a powerful sorcerer, couldn't he just heal them both, and thus get the best of both worlds? (this point assumes that Jorah and Victarion beat each other to near-death in a fight of some sort, such as your trial by seven idea).

Please note that I am not so much trying to disprove your theory as to find flaws in it that you could fix, and so improve the theory. As it is it is superbly thought out, and contains many excellent insights. Well done!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice!  I really enjoyed it and could see most of it happening.  I agree that Tyrion would likely go over to who he can control and Vic seems the most easily manipulated of the bunch.  Maester of Valyria has a good point about Jorah.  He's pissed at Selmy, for certain.  But his love for Dany is too great.  He's already had her look at him as a betrayer before, I don't think he'd risk that again.  So I don't think he'd fight against Selmy, but still could die in the trial as you suggest.  I really want Dany personally or via Jorah to know what Selmy witnessed in KL with Ned.  How Ned defied a King, his BFF for her. 

 

I always love your topics.  They're so well researched and written.  Even if I'm not 100% on board I always find them insightful and interesting and I appreciate the work you put into them.  Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...