R+L=J v.154

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

 

I remember that I suggested once that Rhaegar may have gone to Summerhall first when he began his journey, perhaps in an attempt to catch the Ghost there or find traces from her. Since both High Heart and the Isle of Faces are in the Riverlands, he would have to have gone to a different place first. And Summerhall is a place Rhaegar is strongly associated with.

 

UL,

 

well, 'you cannot have more children' and 'you will die for sure if you try to have more children' aren't the same thing. While the second meaning could be contained in the first there is no necessity for that. And we know that pregnancies can render women incapable of conceiving again, so I'd go with the more easier version. And one really wonders whether Rhaegar would have cared if a third pregnancy would have killed Elia. He wanted to have more children/sons, and if he wanted to save the world with all that as so many people seem to believe then there is little reason that Elia's life would have been important enough to not try again. Especially since we know he did not love her.

 

My guess is George gave us this knowledge about Elia to explain why Rhaegar could not possibly have tried again with Elia, and the best way for that if she was indeed barren at that time (or that maesters examining her concluded she was).

[purple-eyes]

Rhaenys,
 
I remember that I suggested once that Rhaegar may have gone to Summerhall first when he began his journey, perhaps in an attempt to catch the Ghost there or find traces from her. Since both High Heart and the Isle of Faces are in the Riverlands, he would have to have gone to a different place first. And Summerhall is a place Rhaegar is strongly associated with.
 
UL,
 
well, 'you cannot have more children' and 'you will die for sure if you try to have more children' aren't the same thing. While the second meaning could be contained in the first there is no necessity for that. And we know that pregnancies can render women incapable of conceiving again, so I'd go with the more easier version. And one really wonders whether Rhaegar would have cared if a third pregnancy would have killed Elia. He wanted to have more children/sons, and if he wanted to save the world with all that as so many people seem to believe then there is little reason that Elia's life would have been important enough to not try again. Especially since we know he did not love her.
 
My guess is George gave us this knowledge about Elia to explain why Rhaegar could not possibly have tried again with Elia, and the best way for that if she was indeed barren at that time (or that maesters examining her concluded she was).

Not an important question, but I am wondering if there is other case that maester predicted and declared a woman can not get pregnant again?
Naerys was still able to get pregnant, maester only said one more pregnancy and birth would kill her, this even hinted that baby would be all right but Nareys would likely die. This is probably why aegon IV insisted to bed her for more children because he knew she can give more children and he did not care if the mother would die or not( or even want to kill her by this way)
Elia sounds different. Maester declared she would not bear more children. Which hinted she would not be able to get pregnant for her rest life. I think in this case rhaegar had enough reason to ask for an approval to set aside her and marry again publicly and officially because elia already lost the ainility to perform her duty.
Really, There is a big parallel between rhaegar/elia of Dorne/lyanna and Henry viii/Catherine of Spain/ Anne Boleyn.
Of course, even bigger parallel between maegor and Henry viii and their six unfortunate brides.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I know he has companions, I just mean he wandered without lyanna.
I also agree he very likely visited ghost of high heart and discussed how to have third child or even who will be the mother. But looking at the map, that hardly takes more than half of the year. Sure he can do some other mission for half a year then visited ghost. But from the world book, it sounds like abduction happened pretty shortly after rhaegar left DS. If what you said is correct, then rhaegar missed from DS for almost two years. From very early 282 to very late 283.
Do we have any evidence that war ended in the late part of 283?

Based on the date of Rhaego's birth, counting back the nine months of the pregnancy, and taking into account she will have been pregnant for a while before her pregnancy could visibly be noticed, Dany's nameday seems to occur close to the middle of the year (6th month is my estimation). Dany was born 9 months after the Sack, placing the same late in the previous year.

 

Rhaenys,

 

I remember that I suggested once that Rhaegar may have gone to Summerhall first when he began his journey, perhaps in an attempt to catch the Ghost there or find traces from her. Since both High Heart and the Isle of Faces are in the Riverlands, he would have to have gone to a different place first. And Summerhall is a place Rhaegar is strongly associated with.

Interesting idea. 

[Ygrain]

I believe we are given hints that Elia had problems delivering her children. After Rhaenys, she was bedridden for half a year. Aegon's birth was almost the death of her. I think it is a safe conclusion that a third pregnancy would be extremely risky for her. I'm really not sure how the maesters would have determined that she was unable to conceive, they probably made a guess based on the extent of her birthing injuries.

[purple-eyes]

I believe we are given hints that Elia had problems delivering her children. After Rhaenys, she was bedridden for half a year. Aegon's birth was almost the death of her. I think it is a safe conclusion that a third pregnancy would be extremely risky for her. I'm really not sure how the maesters would have determined that she was unable to conceive, they probably made a guess based on the extent of her birthing injuries.

Maybe womb was heavily damaged during the last birth so maester decided that there is no chance for her to get conceived again?
" would not bear more children" sounds different from" can still get pregnant but she would die at the birth"

[UnmaskedLurker]

Maybe womb was heavily damaged during the last birth so maester decided that there is no chance for her to get conceived again?
" would not bear more children" sounds different from" can still get pregnant but she would die at the birth"

Here is the relevant paragraph:

 

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar's wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

 

Based on this context, it really is unclear. I agree that the more natural reading is that she could no longer conceive a child. But given the prior sentences, that interpretation could be called into doubt. It talked about her first pregnancy leading to being in bed for half a year and the second pregnancy almost killing her. Given those statements as the predicate, the maesters saying she would bear no more children could be understood that she was so weak and sickly that she would die from any pregnancy and not be able to carry a third child to term -- not necessarily that she would not be able to get pregnant again. They don't say she cannot get pregnant -- just that she could not bear a child -- they are not the same thing.

[Alia of the knife]

On Elia's condition:

 

From DOD:

 

"The Maesters told Rhaegar that Elia would bear no more children."

 

That is pretty definititve, and if it was a case where her health was a concern, (actually her health was concern with the first one), the Maesters would have simply told Rhaegar a third could kill her, not that she won't have anymore.

 

And in that time, the inability to have children would have been the first reason to put a wife aside. My speculation is that when Rhaegar was sitting with Elia, saying "sadly," there must be one more, both of them knew what that meant.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

If what you said is correct, then rhaegar missed from DS for almost two years. From very early 282 to very late 283.
Do we have any evidence that war ended in the late part of 283?

 

What @Rhaenys_Targaryen has to say about timeline is usually well researched and sound.

Only there's also a quote that Rhaegar was already missing from both Dragonstone and King's Landing on the last day of 281 (TWoIaF), and may have been away even a bit, but not too much longer. There is another quote (in TWoIaF) that says he went early in 282, so maybe either one of them is a mistake and is off.

 

If you like, have a look at the robellion timeline link in my signature.

[purple-eyes]

On Elia's condition:
 
From DOD:
 
"The Maesters told Rhaegar that Elia would bear no more children."
 
That is pretty definititve, and if it was a case where her health was a concern, (actually her health was concern with the first one), the Maesters would have simply told Rhaegar a third could kill her, not that she won't have anymore.
 
And in that time, the inability to have children would have been the first reason to put a wife aside. My speculation is that when Rhaegar was sitting with Elia, saying "sadly," there must be one more, both of them knew what that meant.

I agree. It sounds more like "no ability to conceive" than "still fertile but will likely die of child birth".
So the thing is quite simple here. A badly disabled solider should be released from army because he can not perform duty any more. A barren royal wife can be set aside by this reason too since this is her main duty.
So we should say rhaegar is a better royal husband than Henry viii because he did not show any sign to try to set aside Elia although he had very good reason to do so.
Instead he kept Elia as his lawful princess and protect her benefits and social status, chose to ruin his own and lyanna's reputation and honor by running off. who said rhaegar did not love Elia? he put her benefits above his own and also his lover's. Look at what Henry viii did to Catherine from Spain. Then we know how nice rhaegar is.
If he set aside elia firstly or at least tried, I think he certainly does not need to run off because it will be much easier to break the troth from Robert with the help of his future father-in-law. Dorne had nothing to worry about except some emotional anger. It is their sister who can not perform duty, not rhaegar rejected to do it with her. And aegon and rhaenys are still their nephews and aegon future king.
Elia should feel grateful to rhaegar honestly.
Is this the reason Elia remain silent and may even help him to hide in Dorne?

[Avalatis]

There is a difference between the case for incest and polygamy. The incestous marriage of Aerys was made by the king at the time, his father, probably because of the GoHH's prophecy. So it had the King's approval. Rhaegar's polygamous marriage did not, which might have been why Rhaegar was planning to call a Grand Council. I didn't address your point about royal law because there is only law, and the king largely is the law, even though there are other forces, like the nobility, the Faith, or the smallfolk, that he must consider when deciding on issues of law. As Ygrain said, polygamy is an uncertain card. Rhaegar may have married Lyanna, but he could not be sure the marriage would be seen as valid if the King did not approve. And there is no reason to think the king would approve. Therefore, Jon's legitimacy hung in the balance, that's the point I'm making.

 

Incest was often practiced through the Targaryen line. Logically it was to keep their blood pure which seems to be important for dragon riding. That didn't make it any less obscene to the faith and the rest of the 7 Kingdoms.

 

As others have pointed out while the King could be mad about the marriage and exile him for it (as what happened to Maegor) there is no question of whether or not a marriage occurred and if it was legitimate. Rhaegar would not need a GC... he just needed his father to approve so he wasn't exiled for this action. Even if he was exiled he would have 3 legitimate children in which to train for the prophecy involving the 3 heads.

 

 

I agree that the 3KG did not approve of the Usurper's victory at the Trident or of Jaime's actions. But remember, from their point of view Jaime was simply helping Tywin take down the Targaryens, to whom the KG were loyal. They were not in full possession of the facts when they judged Jaime's actions. What would the noble Hightower or Dayne have done if they were in Jaime's place? Are you sure they would have obeyed their king and let KL burn?

 

No, they state that Aerys would still sit the throne. Which means they did not forsake their vows or go against Aerys. No one is fully aware of why Jaime did what he did. But even if they were, you can't state with certainty that Hightower would have agreed. The whole point is that the KG think of Aerys as King, and no one else (such as Rhaegar).

 

 

Pycelle accounts DoD levels of tension in the court at the time between the King and his son, which the KG would have been well aware of. Even the former Hand thought they had a better king in Rhaegar. So it is not a stretch to think that even the king's sworn swords were faced with this dilemma. Did they favour Aerys or Rhaegar? I think the case is strong for Dayne and Whent being on Rhaegar's side. You're suggesting that Hightower was on Aerys side, went to the ToJ to bring Rhaegar back, and then obeyed an order from Rhaegar to stay at the ToJ while Rhaegar returned alone. I think it is more plausible that Hightower favoured Rhaegar, went to the ToJ and stayed because Rhaegar told him, or perhaps even just asked him, to stay.

 

Why? If hightower was truly loyal and trust worthy to Rhaegar's cause why leave him at the tower? Obviously he trusts Dayne and Whent and would want them to continue to guard Lyanna. But why Hightower? What does Rhaegar gain from that? He might as well have come back with Hightower and had him fight with him on the Trident.

 

Jaime believes Hightower was loyal to the end without a doubt. Hightower told him not to judge Aerys, only to defend him when he saw Aerys burn men alive. If Hightower was not as dutiful as we are shown why was he leading young Jaime along like this?

 

Also Pycelle is not a trustworthy source. He is clearly *very* pro Lannister. He wanted Tywin to be King and has constantly displayed he is a lapdog for that house. I do not doubt there was some strain in the Targaryen house hold, but I would take that information with a grain of salt. When Rhaegar returned Aerys made him the leader of his main army and followed his advise to summon Tywin. Rhaegar was also convinced big changes were going to happen when he returned from the Trident and told Jaime so.

 

 

I accept that Rhaegar would not have wanted to dishonour Lyanna with a bastard. And I think Unmasked Lurker makes an interesting point about Rhaegar wanting a true legitimate dragon as the third head. I can buy that. I'm not saying that they didn't marry, they may have. I'm asking did Rhaegar put the cart before the horse in the hope that a Grand Council would correct the matter? We know a Grand Council featured somewhere in Rhaegar's plan. Replacing his father as King would both strengthen the validity of his polygamous marriage, and put him in a position to legitimise a bastard, so the Grand Council that never was could have provided a solution to his problem.

 

The GC if it was going to be called was to set aside Aerys or to install Rhaegar as regent. This plan seemed to have failed or was side tracked by his sudden abduction of Lyanna. The GC was unlikely going to be about this issue (considering they don't support polygamy, so it would be a failed cause).

 

I agree with UL take on this that Rhaegar was waiting for the child to be born (and yes they were married with two Kingsguard as witnesses at least) before broaching the subject with his father. With a child  already born Aerys would be more likely to accept it. But there was still the risk that Aerys could flip out and exile him.

[Lord Varys]

We know that Rhaegar didn't love Elia because Barristan told as that. And he would know.

 

The setting aside stuff is different since we don't actually know whether it was proper or allowed to get an annulment simply because a woman was no longer fertile, just as it would have been improper and not allowed to get annulment after you wife had given you, say, fifteen children, and was beyond her fertile years just to get a new young wife.

 

Maegor seemed to think he was done with Ceryse Hightower when he married Alys Harroway, and Rhaegar may have married Lyanna for similar reasons (Maegor had no children at all, and Rhaegar was certain that he couldn't have more legitimate children with Elia).

 

We don't yet know if Elia was involved or on board with any of Rhaegar's actions and plans there, since we don't even know he was sure what he was doing when he left Dragonstone. Thus it is possible that Rhaegar may have intended to keep Elia as his wife if he could get through with actual polygamy - although she would only be a wife in the name since he would most likely never again she the bed with her - but he may also have been content with getting rid of Elia aside entirely while keeping his children if nobody in the Realm was willing to accept him having two wives at the same time.

 

I for one doubt that any Martell was really on board with any of that - personal feelings aside, we are talking about the ruling house of Dorne here, the most prestigious while powerful (in regards to the independence and rights) lords in the Seven Kingdoms. They would be the laughingstock of the whole Realm if they went along with the public disgrace showed to Elia by taking Lyanna as a second wife.

[IceFire125]

I agree. It sounds more like "no ability to conceive" than "still fertile but will likely die of child birth".
So the thing is quite simple here. A badly disabled solider should be released from army because he can not perform duty any more. A barren royal wife can be set aside by this reason too since this is her main duty.
So we should say rhaegar is a better royal husband than Henry viii because he did not show any sign to try to set aside Elia although he had very good reason to do so.
Instead he kept Elia as his lawful princess and protect her benefits and social status, chose to ruin his own and lyanna's reputation and honor by running off. who said rhaegar did not love Elia? he put her benefits above his own and also his lover's. Look at what Henry viii did to Catherine from Spain. Then we know how nice rhaegar is.
If he set aside elia firstly or at least tried, I think he certainly does not need to run off because it will be much easier to break the troth from Robert with the help of his future father-in-law. Dorne had nothing to worry about except some emotional anger. It is their sister who can not perform duty, not rhaegar rejected to do it with her. And aegon and rhaenys are still their nephews and aegon future king.
Elia should feel grateful to rhaegar honestly.
Is this the reason Elia remain silent and may even help him to hide in Dorne?

 

WOW! I find it quite odd that I agree with you.  :)

 

To further the point.  

 

Through Jon, we may have the hint that Rhaegar felt "guilty" of his situation overall.

 

You were wrong to love her [Lyanna=married for desire], a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her [Elia=married for duty], a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

 

It would be a mistake for us to absolute conclude that Rhaegar only felt guilty of his situation with Lyanna and not Elia.  But it must be done.

 

It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him.

[J. Stargaryen]

As others have pointed out while the King could be mad about the marriage and exile him for it (as what happened to Maegor) there is no question of whether or not a marriage occurred and if it was legitimate. Rhaegar would not need a GC... he just needed his father to approve so he wasn't exiled for this action. Even if he was exiled he would have 3 legitimate children in which to train for the prophecy involving the 3 heads.

 

Actually, he just needed his father to do nothing. Once the marriage was done, passive acceptance would suffice.

[purple-eyes]

WOW! I find it quite odd that I agree with you.  :)
 
To further the point.  
 
Through Jon, we may have the hint that Rhaegar felt "guilty" of his situation overall.
 

You were wrong to love her [Lyanna=married for desire], a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her [Elia=married for duty], a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when hed left Jons mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Nights Watch.

 

It would be a mistake for us to absolute conclude that Rhaegar only felt guilty of his situation with Lyanna and not Elia.  But it must be done.

 

It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him.

Rhaegar does not need to feel guilty.
He wanted to have all three children with Elia. It is elia who could not make this happen.
He respected and cared her enough to let her stay as his princess, this is a great favor.
Will the army feel guilty to release a handicapped soldier?
Will a boss feel guilty to fire a bad employee?
No and no.
Rhaegar did much better than this, of course, by the standard of that age.
Certainly not for our time. He is a completely jerk by current standards.

[purple-eyes]

Actually, he just needed his father to do nothing. Once the marriage was done, passive acceptance would suffice.

No, he surely needs king and faith to approve his second marriage.
They have the ability and also possibility to declare his secret marriage is invalid.
They do have to passively accept jon is rhaegar's son, but not passively accept the marriage is valid.
Former is biological, latter is a legal stuff.

[IceFire125]

Rhaegar does not need to feel guilty.
He wanted to have all three children with Elia. It is elia who could not make this happen.
He respected and cared her enough to let her stay as his princess, this is a great favor.
Will the army feel guilty to release a handicapped soldier?
Will a boss feel guilty to fire a bad employee?
No and no.
Rhaegar did much better than this, of course, by the standard of that age.
Certainly not for our time. He is a completely jerk by current standards.

 

Well, that was short lived, but I disagree.

 

I think even for Rhaegar Love vs Duty played its role.  Martin had to put that in the World book with Aegon I, Visenya and Rhaenys, for us to hearken back to that very thought.  It is part of the moral fabric and core of the series.

[Lord Varys]

J. Stargaryen,

 

not if the Martells, Starks, and Baratheons made trouble, and/or other pious lords raised objections. If the High Septon and Faith chimed into any anti-Rhaegar sentiment then it would have been very difficult for Rhaegar to get this whole thing through. Perhaps he could have forced his will on the others if he had won some military victories, but if Aerys had abandoned and disowned him, naming Viserys heir in his place, I doubt many lords would have rallied to Rhaegar's side.

But the important authority on marriage issues is the Faith, not the king. If the High Septon - with or without Aerys' prompting or consent - had denounced this second marriage of Rhaegar's, then it would have been effectively done unless Rhaegar was willing to war or use violence against the Faith.

 

But even if he could have forced his will on the High Septon (with Aerys' help, perhaps, if their relationship was different), the Faith may not have been willing to accept a polygamist as the next king. The High Septon and other powerful factions at court forced Aegon V - who most likely was on much better footing with Duncan at this time than Aerys was with Rhaegar in 282 AC - to make his son choose between Jenny and the Iron Throne. It may have been the same with Rhaegar and Lyanna if Rhaegar had not been willing to put at least one of his wives (then most likely Elia) aside in exchange for the other. That could have been a compromise. But then, we don't really know yet whether Rhaegar actually wanted to become a polygamist or whether he wanted to dissolve the marriage to Elia.

[purple-eyes]

Well, that was short lived, but I disagree.
 
I think even for Rhaegar Love vs Duty played its role.  Martin had to put that in the World book with Aegon I, Visenya and Rhaenys, for us to hearken back to that very thought.  It is part of the moral fabric and core of the series.

His did not owe elia anything because it is elia who can not perform the duty.
Rhaegar seems happy to have third child with her if she can.
He left elia only after she was proved to be barren.
What do you want rhaegar do?
Being Faithful to elia and give up his mission for three dragon heads?
He married for duty and also left her for duty (prince's duty, not husband's duty)
From this view, he ran off with lyanna for both duty and love.
Nothing he should be shamed.

Again, this is all based on the moral standards of that age.
Not today.

[purple-eyes]

J. Stargaryen,
 
not if the Martells, Starks, and Baratheons made trouble, and/or other pious lords raised objections. If the High Septon and Faith chimed into any anti-Rhaegar sentiment then it would have been very difficult for Rhaegar to get this whole thing through. Perhaps he could have forced his will on the others if he had won some military victories, but if Aerys had abandoned and disowned him, naming Viserys heir in his place, I doubt many lords would have rallied to Rhaegar's side.
But the important authority on marriage issues is the Faith, not the king. If the High Septon - with or without Aerys' prompting or consent - had denounced this second marriage of Rhaegar's, then it would have been effectively done unless Rhaegar was willing to war or use violence against the Faith.
 
But even if he could have forced his will on the High Septon (with Aerys' help, perhaps, if their relationship was different), the Faith may not have been willing to accept a polygamist as the next king. The High Septon and other powerful factions at court forced Aegon V - who most likely was on much better footing with Duncan at this time than Aerys was with Rhaegar in 282 AC - to make his son choose between Jenny and the Iron Throne. It may have been the same with Rhaegar and Lyanna if Rhaegar had not been willing to put at least one of his wives (then most likely Elia) aside in exchange for the other. That could have been a compromise. But then, we don't really know yet whether Rhaegar actually wanted to become a polygamist or whether he wanted to dissolve the marriage to Elia.

Yes. If there was no rebellion and also lyanna survived, rhaegar had to face the high septon to decide what he wanted to do with his two sets of families.
He had to chose only one.
It would be much harder for him to dissolve the first one, though. Even he preferred to do so.
He had to either choose exile with lyanna like Maegor, or he had to raise a rebellion against faith like Henry viii.
In westeros, he can only have one wife. He has to leave westeros with his second wife, either Essos or wildings, because she is not his lawful wife in westeros. His second marriage is not recognizable under faith in westeros.

[three-eyed monkey]

On Elia's condition:
 
From DOD:
 
"The Maesters told Rhaegar that Elia would bear no more children."
 
That is pretty definititve, and if it was a case where her health was a concern, (actually her health was concern with the first one), the Maesters would have simply told Rhaegar a third could kill her, not that she won't have anymore.
 
And in that time, the inability to have children would have been the first reason to put a wife aside. My speculation is that when Rhaegar was sitting with Elia, saying "sadly," there must be one more, both of them knew what that meant.

Yeah, that's an interesting point. But I wonder would setting Elia aside disinherit her children? Or would there be political implications with Dorne? And in Elia's defence, she had already provided him with a male heir, so maybe setting her aside would not be as easy as it would if she had been unable to produce an heir, depending on how willing she was to be set aside.

The question is did he set her aside? We don't have any indication that he did. In fact all indications are that she was still Rhaegar's wife and her children were still a prince and princess, right up until their deaths. Unless we're waiting for a second secret septon to emerge, one for the wedding to Lyanna and one for the setting aside of Elia.

We know Rhaegar was planning on calling a Grand Council, and it was something he should have done long ago. Is long ago a matter of months or years? That's debatable but personally I think it is when the Maesters told him that Elia could not have another child. That was when his three heads of the dragon plan came unstuck. Rhaegar was unable to finish his song of ice and fire because of his place in the game of thrones. Setting wives aside and marrying again is not without political implication when you are a prince, and not easy when you don't see eye to eye with the king, so Rhaegar stood at a crossroads. It would be a lot easier if he had the king's support, or better still if he was the king. But if he was to take the throne peacefully then calling a Grand Council was the road he needed to travel. Instead he set out with half a dozen companions, probably to consult the GoHH, came upon Lyanna, probably at the Inn at the Crossroads, and ended up in a situation where the third head was on it's way but he still needed a Grand Council, one he never got to call because the ripple he caused by "abducting" Lyanna became the wave that smashed him at the Trident.