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R+L=J v.154


HexMachina

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Except we do not know any Targaryens fathering bastards since Aegon IV.

 

True enough that there hasn't been a known Targaryen bastard for 98 years by the time of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But it's also the case that there hasn't been a polygamous marriage for 234 years by that time as well. And at least we're sure that fathering bastards is not illegal while these last few pages have shown that whether polygamy is illegal or not can be up for debate. So if I had to guess I'd say Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard son over that he was their trueborn son.

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Other than Daemon Blackfyre asking Daeron II if he could take a second wife and Daeron II saying no.
 
 
There's no reason for Selmy to deny it. I'm just thinking that with the World Book information that Selmy shouldn't actually know any of that anymore seeing as Selmy and Rhaegar wouldn't have been interacting much given that Rhaegar did not live in the Red Keep where Selmy was. They'd only ever see each other occasionally so Barristan shouldn't know that Rhaegar didn't love Elia unless it was always like super awkward between Rhaegar and Elia at Christmas time when they visited Rhaegar's folks or something.
 
As to Selmy visiting Rhaegar on Dragonstone, why would he? He's Aerys' KG. He'd only go to Dragonstone if Aerys sent him there which there's no real reason to do. And again that's not really often enough to know that Rhaegar didn't love Elia but was only very fond of her.
 
IMO with the World Book telling us that Rhaegar and Elia didn't live in King's Landing that Barristan isn't really a good source anymore for what was said in ADWD. The information itself is probably still valid, but now that it's known that Rhaegar and Elia lived in a different city than Barristan did I'd feel more comfortable if the information came from like the steward of Dragonstone in those days. Someone who lived with them and would have actually seen that Rhaegar didn't love her. Barristan's quote IMO seems at best to be second hand information, if not completely outdated

The WB is a companion piece that establishes some "backstory" and creates a narrative to set the tone for the book, and like the app., its going to confirm, deny, or raise more questions.

For example Yandel is a character that falls somewhere between Sir Thomas Moore and Gawker.
Part Historian, part gossip, but nonetheless some grains of truth, you just have to sift through to find it.
But, between the books and something like the WB, the text is considered Canon.
The book, through Selmy gives us Elias character, so if we flip the question, how would he know that she was good with a sweet wit.
Maybe in actuality, she was a shrew who yelled at Rhaegar to pick up his pants and stop leaving his harp laying around.
And for gods sake,stop going on the road, and stay home and help with the kids.
Selmy likely went where he was assigned, which could be both KL and DS.
If anyone had a base of operations in an established place like KL, it was likely Hightower.
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True enough that there hasn't been a known Targaryen bastard for 98 years by the time of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But it's also the case that there hasn't been a polygamous marriage for 234 years by that time as well. And at least we're sure that fathering bastards is not illegal while these last few pages have shown that whether polygamy is illegal or not can be up for debate. So if I had to guess I'd say Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard son over that he was their trueborn son.

 

Polygamy is not illegal in Westeros. Arguing otherwise is a waste of page space.

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Not really. It completely ignores that the issue with Duncan was that he married a commoner. His children with Jenny would have been unacceptable for succession. A daughter of Lord Paragon is hardly an unacceptable match.
 
Plus, Rhaegar intended to make changes after his return from the Trident, so he definitely wasn't removed from the succession line.

Technically speaking, Elizabeth Woodville was considered a commoner, her father being merely a knight, but of course, Edward was THE king.
Being common in and of itself was not a reason to remove someone as all that needs happen is a title be created for them to accommodate the new status.
In today's world, Kate Middleton is a commoner as she comes from "merchant" stock, and at the turn of The century, there was a run on American heiress's of millionaire fathers, when many of the the titled families of Europe found themselves dead broke.
And Wallis Warfield Simpson was not accepted because she was a "divorcee" so Edward chose to abdicate rather than not be able to marry her, (perhaps the inspiration for Duncan and Jenny).

Not getting the kings permission was an offense.
I suspect these are the distinctions Martin would draw IF we find that Rhaegar and his line were in question.
They passed over Brightflames line just because they thought an infant MIGHT be mad.
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Rhaegar was desperate to have a child with lyanna. Sure he can play this polygamy card. Why not? He would not lose anything except being exiled for several years or in extreme situation, being disinherited, which he did not put above his prophecy any way.
I will not be surprised he did have a secret wedding with lyanna somewhere.
Maegor desperately wanted to have a new wife to give him a heir. So he chose to do a secret marriage.
Rhaegar also desperately wanted to have a third child. So he surely can make a secret marriage.
The problem is, he died before he could do anything to settle down this marriage.
Maegor did not die. He publicly announce it and exiled for some years and made some serious war about it, then he was fine with six wives and nobody dare to say anything about marriages.
Rhaegar did not do these things, there was only a secret unannounced unknown marriage ceremony with an existing wife.
Question is, under this situation, will it be recognized? if so, how? By whom?
Henry viii married anne secretly, made her pregnant, did this make his marriage legal?
No. He made a war and changed the religion, then church recognized his marriage.
If he did not do this, who will think his marriage is valid although he had a secret wedding and a baby?
If he failed during the war, will people say anne is the queen of England?
Anne insisted Henry viii making the war and making the marriage recognized before the birth of the baby to avoid she was considered to be a bastard.
This means an unrecognized wedding ceremony can not make a double marriage valid, thus can not make the child trueborn.

 

I understand the logic of your argument, but you're overstating the authority that this historical example has in this discussion. It's a fair point to argue I suppose, but the situations are as different as they are alike.

 

 

Wherever did you guys get this idea? Aerys had to do a walk of repentance in 275 for constantly cheating on his wife and killing his mistresses and their families.

 

“Afterward, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made a walk of repentance across the city to the Great Sept, to pray with the High Septon.” - TWoIaF, Aerys II. Seems voluntary to me. Is there another source indicating that the Faith compelled him to make this walk?

 

It was accepted as being real outside of Westoros but not within it. If you are told to leave the country for what you did then that is a very clear indicator that what you did is not allowed in the country you did it in. Aenys exiling Maegor proves that Aenys did not allow polygamy in Westoros not that the marriage was a valid one within Westoros. Maegor's polygamy only became legal when he usurped the throne and made it legal himself. Before that it's an illegal marriage in Westoros as the King kicked him out of the country for doing it. That shows that polygamy is not allowed in his country.

 

While the Faith did not allow for such arrangements, it seems clear to me that there was no prior law against polygamy. If you want to argue that Aenys established a law separate from the Faith, the counter is that Maegor overturned it. And the Faith was never in a position to challenge the throne again on the issues of polygamy and incest. That is, until Cersei.

 

 Aenys action does not prove he did not allow polygamy; it only proves he did not approve of this second marriage. He has good reason for doing so, including his own right to choose to whom Maegor is married, and the impact that marriage has on his first marriage, but that does not in the least prove he outlawed polygamy. Aenys may also have not wanted to push the subject with the Faith given his own propensity for trying to please all sides, but that issue was put to rest with Maegor's rule. Maegor won the war against the Faith Militant and ended the ability of the Faith to raise armies against the monarchy up to Cersei's stupid action allowing them to once again do so. If a Targaryen monarch wished to have a second marriage from the time of Maegor to the time of Aerys II they could have done so without the Faith being able to stop them. The idea the Targaryens for some reason gave up this right after having won the war with the Faith, just isn't supported by any evidence.
 
Why Targaryens after Maegor didn't practice polygamy is an interesting question, but it isn't because they outlawed it or gave up the right from pressure from the disarmed Faith. I suspect it has more to do with the fact polygamy was never common among the Targaryens, and that they found single marriage alliances more useful in binding the rest of Westeros to them. The reward of binding a house in marriage is much more powerful if one is assured there is no other house that can claim the throne. But I'm inclined to believe the most important reason is that for most Targaryens this was something of an aberration that only the Conqueror and his sisters did in recent memory. Aenys quite likely looked at Maegor's second marriage as not only a usurpation of his right to name Maegor's brides, but also a presumptuous move to take on the airs of their father. That would be my guess, but the belief of Ser Jorah and others that Daenerys could have two husbands argues that not only is there no evidence the practice of polygamy was ever outlawed, but that it was still possible.
 
But all of this misses the most important point, and that is whether or not Rhaegar believed it possible. I think his discussion with Elia about the dragon having three heads points to his belief of the need to recreate in his children Aegon and his sisters once again in order to fulfill the prophecy. The absence of polygamous marriage after Maegor has nothing to do with what he thought was necessary. What Rhaegar thought is the point, not Aenys's anger towards Maegor for marrying someone he didn't approve of.

 

Good post.

 

 

You sure do love arguing technicalities, don't you, MarkG Khal Who Rode West King of the Narrow Sea?

 

:thumbsup:

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The WB is a companion piece that establishes some "backstory" and creates a narrative to set the tone for the book, and like the app., its going to confirm, deny, or raise more questions.

For example Yandel is a character that falls somewhere between Sir Thomas Moore and Gawker.
Part Historian, part gossip, but nonetheless some grains of truth, you just have to sift through to find it.
But, between the books and something like the WB, the text is considered Canon.
The book, through Selmy gives us Elias character, so if we flip the question, how would he know that she was good with a sweet wit.
Maybe in actuality, she was a shrew who yelled at Rhaegar to pick up his pants and stop leaving his harp laying around.
And for gods sake,stop going on the road, and stay home and help with the kids.

Selmy likely went where he was assigned, which could be both KL and DS.
If anyone had a base of operations in an established place like KL, it was likely Hightower.

 

He wouldn't know that either though. With Rhaegar and Elia living on Dragonstone he shouldn't know anything but basic things about them in the years of their marriage as he'd only be seeing them occasionally, not every day as was the case when ADWD was written and Barristan said what he said with the belief that back then they lived in King's Landing (as shown by Barristan saying that Rhaegar had secrets in the Red Keep and that Aerys and Rhaegar traveled together to Harrenhal).

 

I trust the books as canon over every other source just when it's a detail like Rhaegar lived on Dragonstone instead of in King's Landing, I see no reason to think that the information mentioned by Yandel isn't true as that's a detail that's easily verifiable and would have had sources to back it up. So if the new information is current, then just adjust the old beliefs. Barristan's information itself sounds reasonably true that Rhaegar was only very fond of Elia but in light of the World Book revelation, I take his information about Rhaegar and Elia's marriage as second hand information not firsthand as I now don't think that he should know that.

 

“Afterward, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made a walk of repentance across the city to the Great Sept, to pray with the High Septon.” - TWoIaF, Aerys II. Seems voluntary to me. Is there another source indicating that the Faith compelled him to make this walk?

 

There isn't, but why would he do a walk of repentance unless he had to? Killing people he thought had conspired to/killed his sons isn't illegal. They committed treason according to him so he has no need to do something that's a punishment by the church. He killed his mistress however and after he made that walk

 

 

On his return, His Grace announced that henceforth he would sleep only with his lawful wife, Queen Rhaella. If the chronicles can be believed, Aerys remained true to this vow, losing all interest in the charms of women from that day in 275 AC.

 

He made a vow of fidelity so it sounds more like he did a walk of repentance for having the mistress. In which case why would he do a walk of repentance for a mistress and then publicly make a vow of fidelity unless he had to/it was recommended he do one by the Faith?

 

 

While the Faith did not allow for such arrangements, it seems clear to me that there was no prior law against polygamy. If you want to argue that Aenys established a law separate from the Faith, the counter is that Maegor overturned it. And the Faith was never in a position to challenge the throne again on the issues of polygamy and incest. That is, until Cersei.

 

To which you would then argue that Maegor's law was overturned by at least the reign of Viserys I as Daemon Targaryen couldn't take a second wife and instead needed Viserys I to set aside his marriage to Rhea Royce if he wanted to marry Rhaenyra. And then you would argue that Daeron II also reaffirmed the turnover of Maegor's decision to allow polygamy as Daeron II forbade Daemon Blackfyre from taking a second wife.

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He wouldn't know that either though. With Rhaegar and Elia living on Dragonstone he shouldn't know anything but basic things about them in the years of their marriage as he'd only be seeing them occasionally, not every day as was the case when ADWD was written and Barristan said what he said with the belief that back then they lived in King's Landing (as shown by Barristan saying that Rhaegar had secrets in the Red Keep and that Aerys and Rhaegar traveled together to Harrenhal).

 

I trust the books as canon over every other source just when it's a detail like Rhaegar lived on Dragonstone instead of in King's Landing, I see no reason to think that the information mentioned by Yandel isn't true as that's a detail that's easily verifiable and would have had sources to back it up. So if the new information is current, then just adjust the old beliefs. Barristan's information itself sounds reasonably true that Rhaegar was only very fond of Elia but in light of the World Book revelation, I take his information about Rhaegar and Elia's marriage as second hand information not firsthand as I now don't think that he should know that.

 

 

There isn't, but why would he do a walk of repentance unless he had to? Killing people he thought had conspired to/killed his sons isn't illegal. They committed treason according to him so he has no need to do something that's a punishment by the church. He killed his mistress however and after he made that walk

 

 

He made a vow of fidelity so it sounds more like he did a walk of repentance for having the mistress. In which case why would he do a walk of repentance for a mistress and then publicly make a vow of fidelity unless he had to/it was recommended he do one by the Faith?

 

 

To which you would then argue that Maegor's law was overturned by at least the reign of Viserys I as Daemon Targaryen couldn't take a second wife and instead needed Viserys I to set aside his marriage to Rhea Royce if he wanted to marry Rhaenyra. And then you would argue that Daeron II also reaffirmed the turnover of Maegor's decision to allow polygamy as Daeron II forbade Daemon Blackfyre from taking a second wife.

The way I understood the passage, he wanted to make amends to the gods for his infidelities and lifestyle, in the hopes that this would grant him a healthy son. 

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Sure. Rhaegar did not need to answer to law or god because he is a Targ.
Why do not you guys say that he married lyanna even at HH since he crowned her as queen and there were also some heart trees nearby? Maybe they slept together at KOLT scenario then rhaegar decided to marry her to save her honor. Yeah, and also KG as witnesses. Existence of Elia does not matter. Targ can marry as many as they want.
After that they lived happily as a secret husband and wife.
So the truth is, he did not abduct or elope with lyanna, that is just a sweet honeymoon or retreat of a happy couple. Brandon and Rickard certainly deserved deaths to disturb the honeymoon of beloved prince.
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Aerys' walk of penance suggests that the High Septons aren't exactly powerless figures. Aerys may have been motivated by personal remorse and piety, yet the impression he gives with a walk of atonement is that the gods are above mortal men, and rule even over kings. And the High Septon is the Voice of the Seven on earth, he is an avatar of the Seven themselves, and thus on a completely different plane than any king. He may not have any armies but neither do the present day popes (and the medieval popes didn't have that big armies either yet they still crushed kings and emperors).

 

What I remember from George about the previous High Septons is that they were corrupt and willing to make deals with the kings and lords because they were all nobles themselves, but that doesn't mean that they have no authority on their own. The Faith simply doesn't feature all that much in the early books and nobody thinks expects them to pose a threat or a challenge. But we see how powerful and how much support the Faith enjoys with the commoners when the High Sparrow takes power. This happens very quickly, and he can at once command over all the resources and assets of the Faith.

 

The picture that the kings can actually legally command the High Septon and make him and the Faith do their bidding is wrong, I think. There are deals made, of course, but they are scratching each others' backs, it is not a master-servant relationship.

 

In that sense, it wouldn't be inconceivable that the High Septon denounces Rhaegar's second marriage even against Aerys' wishes, or takes on both king and son at once. I'm not sure he would prevail there, but then, if he made a strong appeal to the faithful of the Realm that the gods had revealed to him that King Aerys II was actually mad, and thus had lost the right to rule and any claim to the Iron Throne I'm pretty sure that many people would have listened and agreed. After all, half the Realm had seen him at Harrenhal, where he looked pretty mad and disgusting.

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There isn't, but why would he do a walk of repentance unless he had to? Killing people he thought had conspired to/killed his sons isn't illegal. They committed treason according to him so he has no need to do something that's a punishment by the church. He killed his mistress however and after he made that walk

 

 

He made a vow of fidelity so it sounds more like he did a walk of repentance for having the mistress. In which case why would he do a walk of repentance for a mistress and then publicly make a vow of fidelity unless he had to/it was recommended he do one by the Faith?

 

Why are you asking me? You're the one who claimed he "had to." I simply pointed out that it says no such thing in the text. Fwiw, I doubt the Faith made Aerys do anything he wasn't already willing to do.

 

To which you would then argue that Maegor's law was overturned by at least the reign of Viserys I as Daemon Targaryen couldn't take a second wife and instead needed Viserys I to set aside his marriage to Rhea Royce if he wanted to marry Rhaenyra. And then you would argue that Daeron II also reaffirmed the turnover of Maegor's decision to allow polygamy as Daeron II forbade Daemon Blackfyre from taking a second wife.

 

You might argue that, but I wouldn't. Being denied permission =/= illegal. Especially when the kings had good reasons aside from the polygamy issue to deny those requests.

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You might argue that, but I wouldn't. Being denied permission =/= illegal. Especially when the kings had good reasons aside from the polygamy issue to deny those requests.

 

Honestly I look at the cases of Daemon Blackfyre and Daemon Targaryen in this way:

This may not prove that the polygamy is illegal and I did not say polygamy is illegal.   

however, it can prove that you have to ask for (or force) a permission from king and/or faith for a polygamy marriage to make it legal before you do that. 

Otherwise two Daemons can just run off with their sweethearts and disappear and have secret weddings (and/or baby) and then everybody will just has to accept their marriage. 

Both Daemons seem as brave and willful as Rhaegar (or more) and I am sure both of them know how to run off and hide. 

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Mithras,

 

not Aerys' walk of penance. And certainly not Yandel claiming the High Septon became 'highly influential during Baelor's reign' as well as the rumors about Baelor forcefully converting the Northmen and Ironborn to the Faith.

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Honestly I look at the cases of Daemon Blackfyre and Daemon Targaryen in this way:

This may not prove that the polygamy is illegal and I did not say polygamy is illegal.   

however, it can prove that you have to ask for (or force) a permission from king and/or faith for a polygamy marriage to make it legal before you do that. 

Otherwise two Daemons can just run off with their sweethearts and disappear and have secret weddings (and baby) and then everybody will just has to accept their marriage. 

Both Daemons seem as brave and willful as Rhaegar (or more) and I am sure both of them know how to run off and hide. 

 

I don't think it really proves anything legally. I think the main point of these examples is to provide Rhaegar with a motive to elope with Lyanna, sans permission. Yes, showing up already married like Maegor did is troublesome, but if you ask permission you might well be denied.

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That is a really interesting idea. Rhaegar could get his 3 'princes' even if they were taken out of the succession.

Yes, even if he was removed from the succession, Rhaegar would still be a prince, just like Duncan the Small remained Prince Duncan. I don't think he had any children, but if he did I don't see any reason why they would not be princes, since Egg was a prince at birth by virtue of the fact that his grandfather was the king. And Aegon and Rhaenys might still have princely styles due to the fact that their mother was a Dornish princess.  

Aegon's son Aenys was the child of his second wife according to WOIAF, and he was accepted as legitimate, or the claim of every king since Aenys except Maegor would be called into question. Maegor was sent into exile, but he was allowed to keep his second wife. 

 

Aegon II and his line lost the IT, and it was taken by Rhaenyra's line. Rhaenyra's claim was accepted as legitimate or she would have had no supporters and taken KL. A feudal king has limitations true, but no war was seldom just over polygamy. 

 

The Blackfyre supporters claimed that Aegon IV promised Daemon to have Daenerys as a second wife alongside Rohanne, which suggests lords would have accepted polygamy. Before that, Sharra Arryn and Argella Durrandon were offered as third wives to Aegon I, and both parties followed the Seven and were royalty. There is precedent for the child of a second wife being accepted as legitimate with Aenys. Rhaegar had precedent for doing so, and polygamy was never truly abolished. On top of that, the Faith had been demilitarized almost three centuries ago with the HS being a puppet, so no Faith rebellion over Rhaegar's decision. Besides, Rhaegar was pretty popular among the lords and commons alike, and could have earned a pass.  

Aenys isn't a good example because his father's polygamous marriage happened prior to the Conquest.  When the various lords bent the knee to the Conqueror, they were forced to accept his polygamous marriage.  For the same reason, Sharra Arryn and Argella Durrandon aren't good examples, either -- it was accepted that Aegon I had used fire and blood to enforce his ability to practice polygamy.  It was also not clear at that time whether he was going to implement Valyrian law or adopt the Andal customs.  Notably, he did not try to turn Westeros into a new Valyria.  Aside from incest and polygamy, he tried to assimilate his family into Westerosi customs.  

 

Maegor isn't a good example either, because (1) he wasn't allowed to keep his second wife in the 7 kingdoms, and (2) he had not children, so we don't know whether his children from any polygamous marriages would have been considered legitimate.  

 

Daemon Blackfyre isn't a good example because, even if some subset of his supporters thought he should have been permitted a second wife, they were in the minority and, more importantly, they lost.  And, I don't think that any Targaryen prince would rely on a precedent that Daemon Blackfyre (tried to) set in order to justify his own actions, because that would lend validity to the Blackfyre claim.    

 

Not really. It completely ignores that the issue with Duncan was that he married a commoner. His children with Jenny would have been unacceptable for succession. A daughter of Lord Paragon is hardly an unacceptable match.

 

Plus, Rhaegar intended to make changes after his return from the Trident, so he definitely wasn't removed from the succession line.

Duncan's problem was not that he married a commoner.  It was that he broke a betrothal to the Lord of Storm's End, which led that Lord to rise up in rebellion.  Again, that is not a precedent Rhaegar would want to draw attention to.  

 

And, Duncan's brother Jaehaerys nearly lost his own place in the succession for marrying without his father, Aegon V's, permission.  He only ascended the throne because he father gave permission after the fact.  And that only happened because there was no alternative heir.  Aerys, unlike Aegon V, did have an alternative heir -- Viserys -- who he liked more than he liked Rhaegar.  So Rhaegar's situation was more like Duncan's than Jaehaerys', and Rhaegar would have had a hard time getting after the fact permission like Jaehaerys did.  

 
Aenys action does not prove he did not allow polygamy; it only proves he did not approve of this second marriage. He has good reason for doing so, including his own right to choose to whom Maegor is married, and the impact that marriage has on his first marriage, but that does not in the least prove he outlawed polygamy. Aenys may also have not wanted to push the subject with the Faith given his own propensity for trying to please all sides, but that issue was put to rest with Maegor's rule. Maegor won the war against the Faith Militant and ended the ability of the Faith to raise armies against the monarchy up to Cersei's stupid action allowing them to once again do so. If a Targaryen monarch wished to have a second marriage from the time of Maegor to the time of Aerys II they could have done so without the Faith being able to stop them. The idea the Targaryens for some reason gave up this right after having won the war with the Faith, just isn't supported by any evidence.
 
Why Targaryens after Maegor didn't practice polygamy is an interesting question, but it isn't because they outlawed it or gave up the right from pressure from the disarmed Faith. I suspect it has more to do with the fact polygamy was never common among the Targaryens, and that they found single marriage alliances more useful in binding the rest of Westeros to them. The reward of binding a house in marriage is much more powerful if one is assured there is no other house that can claim the throne. But I'm inclined to believe the most important reason is that for most Targaryens this was something of an aberration that only the Conqueror and his sisters did in recent memory. Aenys quite likely looked at Maegor's second marriage as not only a usurpation of his right to name Maegor's brides, but also a presumptuous move to take on the airs of their father. That would be my guess, but the belief of Ser Jorah and others that Daenerys could have two husbands argues that not only is there no evidence the practice of polygamy was ever outlawed, but that it was still possible.
 
But all of this misses the most important point, and that is whether or not Rhaegar believed it possible. I think his discussion with Elia about the dragon having three heads points to his belief of the need to recreate in his children Aegon and his sisters once again in order to fulfill the prophecy. The absence of polygamous marriage after Maegor has nothing to do with what he thought was necessary. What Rhaegar thought is the point, not Aenys's anger towards Maegor for marrying someone he didn't approve of.

The bolded part is not correct.  Maegor tried to end the Faith Uprising by ordering that the Faith Militant be disbanded, but it didn't work.  Maegor died (or was assassinated) and Jaehaerys the Conciliator came to the throne.  He is called the Conciliator because he ended the Faith Uprising and made peace.  He also implemented the first unified system of laws for the 7 kingdoms.  The theory is that one of the new laws he implemented, in order to appease the Faith, was a ban on polygamy.  

 

This makes a lot of senses, because a "Conciliator" is someone who makes compromises.  There were two things that really bothered the Faith:  incest and polygamy.  Jaehaerys could not outlaw incest because (1) it would invalidate his own marriage, and (2) it would lead to the dilution of the dragon-riding blood.  But he could outlaw polygamy, because the last (really, only the second) polygamist was dead.  Add that to the fact that from the reign of Jaehaerys going forward, there were no known examples of Targaryen polygamy, and the logical conclusion is that the compromise Jaehaerys gave to the Faith was to expressly outlaw polygamy.  

 

 

Except we do not know any Targaryens fathering bastards since Aegon IV.

It would be shocking if Aegon IV was the last Targaryen to father a bastard.  Practically every Targaryen except Baelor the Blessed was known to have a mistress.  When his father died, Aegon II couldn't be found for days because he was with his mistress.  Prince Daemon (Rhaenyra's husband) took mistresses, and Rhaenyra was widely believed to have had affairs.  Rhaegar's own father (Aerys), brother (Viserys), and sister (Dany) also all took out of wedlock lovers.  And there were so many Targaryen bastards on Dragonstone that they had a special name, the "seeds."  

 

The only way there were no Targaryen bastards since Aegon IV would be if the women were all diligently drinking moon tea, but if they weren't, the Targaryen men wouldn't know about it.  As Tormund told Jon, "if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea.  You do not come into it, once the seed is planted."

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I don't think it really proves anything legally. I think the main point of these examples is to provide Rhaegar with a motive to elope with Lyanna, sans permission. Yes, showing up already married like Maegor did is troublesome, but if you ask permission you might well be denied.

 

My point is that, when you are already married, your second secret marriage is not going to be legally recognized by default, unless you do something powerful (approval of the king or a usurping war) to force them accept it.

That is why both Daemons asked for permission firstly. Because even they eloped and married secretly while they had an existing wife, this secret marriage would be annulled immediately and easily. Their women ended up as mistresses. So it is indeed useless to run off and have a secret second wedding without permission to seal a marriage. If this can work, two Daemons can do the same thing as Rhaegar: elope and get married and come back as lawful husband and wife.  Even Maegor got the permission of his Queen mother who is arguably the head of the house Targ, at least in their minds.  

But for Rhaegar, things are different. The main target of rhaegar is no doubt a third child. That can be done without any permission. Nobody can deny that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Rhaegar wanted desperately a third child. Of course, He may want to marry Lyanna too, but that is not as important as the child. That is why Rhaegar did not try to get permission. he knew he would receive a big no and he knew he could not get a permission by simply running off. But he really did not care because he wanted to have a child

He may play polygamy card and marry Lyanna secretly but this is just an romantic and emotional move, not something which can legitimize his marriage. He may also try to persuade people to accept his second marriage on grand council but unfortunately that never happened. 

So if there was a secret marriage and Rhaegar won and survived, he may make it legit on grand council or force them to accept by power. This can happen because polygamy can be accepted by force.  

However, Rhaegar died. so If there was a secret marriage, it did not count. 

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The only way there were no Targaryen bastards since Aegon IV would be if the women were all diligently drinking moon tea, but if they weren't, the Targaryen men wouldn't know about it.  As Tormund told Jon, "if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea.  You do not come into it, once the seed is planted."

 

I think it is better to say there were no Targ bastard recorded since Aegon IV. 

They did not play major rules so they did not show up in the stories. 

And we surely can not use this to prove that all Targs are faithful to their marriages. 

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It would be shocking if Aegon IV was the last Targaryen to father a bastard.  Practically every Targaryen except Baelor the Blessed was known to have a mistress.  When his father died, Aegon II couldn't be found for days because he was with his mistress.  Prince Daemon (Rhaenyra's husband) took mistresses, and Rhaenyra was widely believed to have had affairs.  Rhaegar's own father (Aerys), brother (Viserys), and sister (Dany) also all took out of wedlock lovers.  And there were so many Targaryen bastards on Dragonstone that they had a special name, the "seeds."  

 

The only way there were no Targaryen bastards since Aegon IV would be if the women were all diligently drinking moon tea, but if they weren't, the Targaryen men wouldn't know about it.  As Tormund told Jon, "if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea.  You do not come into it, once the seed is planted."

 

I don't recall any Targaryen since Aegon IV having mistresses (except Aerys).

 

Daeron II didnot have a bastard. Nor we hear any such from his kids. Egg did not have any bastards. His siblings have no confirmed bastards. Egg's children didnot have any bastards. Aerys didnot have any bastard.

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I don't recall any Targaryen since Aegon IV having mistresses (except Aerys).

 

Daeron II didnot have a bastard. Nor we hear any such from his kids. Egg did not have any bastards. His siblings have no confirmed bastards. Egg's children didnot have any bastards. Aerys didnot have any bastard.

 

That is a condensed history book. it is better to say there were no Targ mistress and bastard recorded since Aegon IV. 

They did not play major roles in the book so they were not recorded. 

No history recorded Rhaegar had a extra son, but we have R+L=J.

Also look at the long thread of A+J=T, we know Aerys may have a bastard but history did not record anything. 

And I fail to see your point here. What do you want to prove here?

No mistress or bastard recorded so they were not possible?

No mistress or bastard recorded so we can conclude that Lyanna is definitely not a mistress?

There is no logic relationship here. 

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