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HelenaExMachina

R+L=J v.154

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I'll stick to the fact that the DoD account is told from the pov of a maester a century after the fact. So I do not take it as a given that Ser Marston was named to the KG only after the fall of DS. At the very least it shouldn't be stated as fact that Aegon II had no KG with him.

Sure Viserys could have named Willem Darry or anyone else to the KG but that point is completely irrelevant. The KG at the tower would certainly not be aware of that and as far as they would know, Viserys had no KG with him.

Just to clarify -- if the conversation is taken as a reliable reflection of what the KG believed -- the explicitly state that Darry is not of KG and therefore because of that, he could go to DS. So the KG do not think Darry could be KG.

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Yeah, but Marston Waters could also not have existed at all, and be just an invention of the maesters/historians?

 

And we don't know whether they even considered sending anyone to Dragonstone in the first place. You can't make an assumption and use that assumption base the assumption on.

 

The king can make Kingsguard all the day he likes, and the Kingsguard knows that. Viserys III is safe on Dragonstone protected by his garrison - Daenerys Targaryen is not in the Dothraki Sea, all alone. It is a double standard to demand that three Kingsguard who already have an important assignment send now one of their own to the new king instead of, you know, wait with that until Lyanna is dead and/or they are to travel their together (if that's the intention) while it is perfectly fine for Selmy to play the hangers-on at Hizdahr's court.

 

The bloodriders are actually more than Kingsguard. They share the blood of the khal and sometimes even his possessions and consorts. That is much more intimate bond than the Kingsguard stuff but it has nothing to do with Selmy's own duty to his queen.

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You seem fond of making assumptions and then basing further assumptions on that assumption. So now the bloodriders are more than KG? I thought the Dothraki are just Dothraki. Furthermore, Dany is not alone. She flew off on a dragon as far as I remember. The Barristan situation shows just how easy it is to fulfill multiple duties simultaneously.

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This is a pretty good OP by Kingmonkey that a lot of people here might like.

 

Really nice OP. I think this highlights how important the ToJ dream is and should not just be brushed aside because it is in the context of a fever dream. Our interpretations might be off but this sequence is highly significant and the 'echos' that kingmonkey presents shows that the dream might be more accurate than some would care to admit.

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The bloodriders are more than KG due to their special bond to their khal. They are on another level, though, and have nothing to do with Barristan's own duties. And the very dragon Dany flew off on may pose a mortal danger to her, right? Barristan seemed to think so when he challenged Drogon in the pit.

 

Not to mention that Barristan had nothing to do with the bloodriders' decision to search for Dany. They don't answer to him, when I last checked.

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My position is valid because these things actually happen in the books. None of your scenarios do. No one can refute a scenario that only occurred in your head because you are the god of that universe and can set all the rules as to what happens in the way that you want them to happen. In GRRM's world where he's god, he's had Barristan (the character in question here, not your make belief KG's who only do what you want them to) always obey.

 

I can also post random irrelevant things from the books. That does not make an argument for you.

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Umm...who said anything about the bloodriders answering to Barristan? Furthermore, bloodriders being more than KG due their bond to the khal does not change my point that they are the Dothraki equivalent to KG.

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Thorne and Fell did not 'abandon' Aegon II. Who's to say that Aegon II did not approve of Larys' plan to send Thorne and Fell with Jaehaera and Maelor? Dany's bloodriders (the Dothraki version of KG) went to find Dany. Barristan chose to guard her interests in Meereen. See how easy it is to fulfil two duties simultaneously. The three KG could have fulfilled Rhaegar's order as well as their first duty by one or two of their number attempting to go to DS.

We know Aegon II did not approve of the plan to send Thorne and Fell with Jaehaera and Maelor (and the fact that Thorne "swore a vow" to see it done) because he was too addled by milk of the poppy.  That is why Aegon had to have a regent, and it is why Larys "gave the order" to Thorne and Fell.  If Aegon II had been competent, Larys would have made a recommendation and Aegon would have given the order.  

 

Dany had one Queensguard -- Barristan.  And he was the Lord Commander of her Queensguard.  But he wasn't commanding the bloodriders.  They are something different.  Just like Willem Darry was something different, while still being adequate protection for Viserys.  

 

Finally, the 3 KG at the ToJ could not have fulfilled Rhaegar's order while still sending one of their number to Dragonstone if Rhaegar ordered each of them, individually, to stay with Lyanna.  In that case, whichever one went to Dragonstone would be disobeying Rhaegar's order.

 

Consigliere,

 

<snip.

You should add some more examples of times when the KG left the king without KG protection -- every time the king rode on a dragon.  When Aegon the Conqueror got a letter from Dorne about the fate of Rhaenys, he mounted Balerion and flew off for the night.  He didn't have a Kingsguard with him.  When Rhaenyra flew from Dragonstone to King's Landing after Aegon II fled, she didn't have a Kingsguard with her.  And in neither case did the kingsguard feel a need to go chasing after the dragon to try to fulfill their "first duty."  

 

I find it hard to believe that two dragonriders -- Visenya and Aegon -- would set up the kingsguard with the expectation that there was a "first duty" that required at least one of them would always be with the king, because Visenya and Aegon knew that there would frequently be occasions when that kind of "first duty" would have to be disregarded. 

I have a follow-up question (and related questions below) for people who don't believe the KG concluded that Jon was the rightful heir. Why do people think the KG and Ned's group fought?

The answer is, no-one can know.  But there are plenty of reasons why this might have happened.  For example, consider the fact that Lyanna is an incredibly valuable hostage.  If she survives and the KGs can transport her to Dragonstone, they can threaten to kill her if Robert (or Stannis) tries to invade.  That would be a pretty good way to protect King Viserys III from "harm or threat."  

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There is a clear indication that there is a law against polygamy, as cited from Alayne's chapter.

Why would Targaryens pass a law against something only they themselves practice? To appease the Faith after the militant uprising. To restrict the dilution of their bloodlines, just as keeping the bloodline pure is the perceived wisdom behind the practice of incest. Or as you yourself suggest, to keep matters of inheritance from becoming a nightmare, as they quickly learned.

 

The fact that incest is equally (if not seen as worse) is still practiced shows this is unlikely. What is likely is they saw that the line of succession became chaotic and it wasn't worth it anymore. They wouldn't need to outlaw it, as no one in the 7 Kingdoms practiced it outside of the royal family. Each of the 7 Kingdoms also had their own laws which probably outlawed it. And finally you did not address if a royal law actually applies to the royal family. Obviously you don't want to piss off the King as they can do whatever they want to you.

 

 

So we're told Hightower is an honourable and loyal guy. A better man than Jaime, according to Jaime himself. But let's examine that statement because I think Jaime's being a bit hard on himself. Jamie killed the king he was sworn to protect so that KL would not burn. Ser Gerold watches a father and son get murdered in a most cruel fashion, and does nothing except tell Jaime to do his duty. And Hightower is the better man? No, the way I see it, there would be no 180 required because GRRM paints in grey, not black and white.

 

What this shows is that the Kingsguard valued their Kingsguard vows above all others, even their knightly vows (which this likely violated). When Ned tells them about Jaime slaying their King in his dream, they state that had they been there Jaime would have died instead. Hightower is showly aboslute loyalty to the King/Throne. His character is crucial to understanding why Hightower would remain at the tower guarding Lyanna and her child.

 

 

I agree with you that a prince cannot order a KG to forsake his king. But then we must ask why Hightower did he not return to KL with Rhaegar, as his king might have expected? And how did he know where to find Rhaegar when it seems Aerys did not? I think it's all easily explained if Hightower is Rhaegar's man, which means he had to forsake his vows, and he might have even regretted that when Rhaegar's cause came to nothing.

 

If Aerys ordered Hightower to bring back Rhaegar whatever the cost, he would be following his orders by staying at the TOJ. Rhaegar could have stated: "I will go, but you must remain and protect Lyanna until I'm able to retrieve her." Or it's a simple matter of Rhaegar ordering him, and Hightower knowing there were 4 other Kingsguard at KL knew the King was safe so he followed the order (I think this is less likely).

 

How did Hightower know where to find Rhaegar? Who knows. We don't know how long he was searching, he could have been at it for months. Or he could have rode straight from KL to the TOJ. We have little information on this beyond that he was tasked to find Rhaegar and return him. We know that Rhaegar returned without any of the 3 KG. We know that Jaime doesn't reflect on how the 3 KG deserted and failed their KG vows just like he did.

 

If he was going to forsake his KG vows he had plenty of opportunities to do so before then. Hightower showed what he valued the most in terms of vows. It is far fetched that he suddenly was convinced to do so by Rhaegar. Hightower was getting on in years and the KG was his life.

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We know Aegon II did not approve of the plan to send Thorne and Fell with Jaehaera and Maelor (and the fact that Thorne "swore a vow" to see it done) because he was too addled by milk of the poppy.  That is why Aegon had to have a regent, and it is why Larys "gave the order" to Thorne and Fell.  If Aegon II had been competent, Larys would have made a recommendation and Aegon would have given the order. 

No. We do not know that. It is far from being a fact since this account is by a maester a century after the fact. Larys gave the order but Aegon could very well have approved. So please stop stating this stuff like it is an indisputable fact.

 

 

Dany had one Queensguard -- Barristan.  And he was the Lord Commander of her Queensguard.  But he wasn't commanding the bloodriders.  They are something different.  Just like Willem Darry was something different, while still being adequate protection for Viserys. 

 

Dany has bloodriders too - the Dothraki equivalent of KG/Queensguard - who are certainly not equivalent to Willem Darry.  Barristan not commanding the bloodriders is irrelevant.

 

 

 

Finally, the 3 KG at the ToJ could not have fulfilled Rhaegar's order while still sending one of their number to Dragonstone if Rhaegar ordered each of them, individually, to stay with Lyanna.  In that case, whichever one went to Dragonstone would be disobeying Rhaegar's order.

 

Sure they could. Rhaegar's order and their first duty are not mutually exclusive. They could have done both. Your scenario requires the KG to be mindless robots not taking into account changing circumstances.

 

 

 

You should add some more examples of times when the KG left the king without KG protection -- every time the king rode on a dragon.  When Aegon the Conqueror got a letter from Dorne about the fate of Rhaenys, he mounted Balerion and flew off for the night.  He didn't have a Kingsguard with him.  When Rhaenyra flew from Dragonstone to King's Landing after Aegon II fled, she didn't have a Kingsguard with her.  And in neither case did the kingsguard feel a need to go chasing after the dragon to try to fulfill their "first duty."  
 
I find it hard to believe that two dragonriders -- Visenya and Aegon -- would set up the kingsguard with the expectation that there was a "first duty" that required at least one of them would always be with the king, because Visenya and Aegon knew that there would frequently be occasions when that kind of "first duty" would have to be disregarded.

 

You should add examples that are actually comparable. I don't recall Viserys having access to a dragon.

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Lord Varys, on 26 Aug 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:  Well, I stick to what we know, and that is that Marston Waters only was named to the Kingsguard after Aegon II had taken Dragonstone.  But, then, Viserys III had the power to threw a white cloak to anyone he wanted to, right? Meaning that there was no need to go to him even if you insist that a king needs to have KG protection. A king can see to that himself.
 
We don't know, although it is implied, that Ser Marston Waters of the Kingsguard is the same "bastard knight" who fled with Aegon II to Dragonstone.  If we are going to draw the inference that Marston Waters is the same bastard knight, then we should also be prepared to draw the inference that when the book says he was named to the Kingsguard for his service to Aegon II, it means (1) for the services rendered after Lord Larys sent Marston and Aegon to Dragonstone, and (2) after Aegon stopped his heavy use of milk of the poppy (again, after his flight to Dragonstone).  
 
Viserys (presumably, with Rhaella's help) had the power to name new KGs.  But Whent seems confident that Willem Darry is "not of the Kingsguard."  I always took this to mean either that the Lord Commander is usually involved when new KGs are named (Jaime seemed unhappy that Cersei did not consult him about new KGs, even though Jaime was a prisoner at the time), or that Willem Darry was married.  

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My first time commenting... I'd like to put in my 2 cents worth on the idea that Lyanna had twins...Jon and Meera. When Lyanna died, they discovered twins...to keep them safe, and simplify their deception, Ned took Jon and Howland took Meera.  In the books, they are both the exact same age (15), their descriptions are similar, and Meera is the warrior to Jojen's seer character.

It is otherwise pretty strange that even though Ned and Howland were such good friends, Howland never visited Winterfell... even tho' Howland had a eligible daughter to offer to one of Ned's sons and an eligible son to offer to Ned's daughters.

 

This could add a whole new dimension, as well as a new plot line to the story. Meera is now abandoned in the North (since Jojen's death in the show... and his weakened condition in the books) with no real purpose in sight... AND she's the warrior of the two- it makes sense for her to head back to Castle Black... in time for Jon's resurrection by Melisandre (who has no reason to be there except to be available for just such a task).

 

NOW.. the kicker! Danaerys has already received the prophecy that she will have no more children... NOT a good situation for the foundation of a dynasty! BUT the Targaryen's are famous for marrying brother and sister to keep the blood lines pure... if Jon (Snow, Stark) Targaryen and Meera (Reed) Targaryen (2 of the three heads of the Dragon, with Danaerys) were to marry to restore the dynasty, THAT would make internal and external sense of the plot lines and the whole idea, pushed many times, that the Targaryens prefer to marry within the family!! This would also clean up the rather torn and poorly-created plot of Tyrion being the bastard son of the Mad king.

 

I think it has possibilities!

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Idk about the twins theory. Doesn't seem as though there is any credible evidence pointing in that direction. If Jon and Meera are twins, why split them up? How does splitting them up keep them safe or simplify the deception?

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why everybody assume R and L got married?

This is really just a speculation. And it is not a fact

There are plenty of little clues about Jon being King throughout the books.  One of the biggest is BR of all people calling Jon king through one of his crows. 

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No. We do not know that. It is far from being a fact since this account is by a maester a century after the fact. Larys gave the order but Aegon could very well have approved. So please stop stating this stuff like it is an indisputable fact.

The best information available to us, which is very detailed and specific, is that Aegon II was addled by milk of the poppy and Larys was giving the orders.  There is no reason to doubt this -- unless you want to doubt other details, like the fact that Thorne swore an oath to protect the royal child, or that Ser Marston Waters was named to the Kingsguard, etc.  More importantly, whether it happened like that or not, the "maester" writing the book believed that it happened that way, which means it could have happened that way, which means that there is no basis for believing that the KG's "first duty" requires them to disobey otherwise valid orders in order to ensure that there is a member of the KG with the king at all times.  
 

Dany has bloodriders too - the Dothraki equivalent of KG/Queensguard - who are certainly not equivalent to Willem Darry.  Barristan not commanding the bloodriders is irrelevant.
This is pretty simple.  If the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard isn't your Lord Commander, then you aren't a member of the Kingsguard.  And, if the Lord Commander is satisfied that the King or Queen is adequately protected by someone who isn't in the Kingsguard, there is no need for a Kingsguard to be with you.  This happen when Jaime calls a meeting of the Kingsguard (the brothers of two KGs protect the king), when Viserys is on Dragonstone (the brother of one KG protects the king), and when Dany disappears from Meereen (her bloodriders go looking for her).  
 

Sure they could. Rhaegar's order and their first duty are not mutually exclusive. They could have done both. Your scenario requires the KG to be mindless robots not taking into account changing circumstances.
Rhaegar's orders and the imaginary "first duty" to go to the new king when the old king dies are mutually exclusive [i]if[/if] the order applies to each individual Kingsguard.  Suppose that Rhaegar said:  "Arthur, I order you stay with Lyanna and to keep her away from any rebel who tries to reach her; swear a vow that you will do that"; then he said:  "Gerold, I order you to stay with Lyanna and to keep her away from any rebel who tries to reach her; swear a vow that you will do that;" then he said:  "Oswell, I order you to stay with Lyanna and to keep her away from any rebel who tries to reach her; swear a vow that you will do that."  Then suppose that any one of those three said, "I don't like that order any more, now that Aerys is dead and Viserys is king; I am going to leave Lyanna with the other two and go see Viserys on Dragonstone."  Is there any way he can do that without disobeying a direct order, and breaking a vow?"
 

You should add examples that are actually comparable. I don't recall Viserys having access to a dragon.
My point is a little more subtle than that.  My point is that when the KG was established, the king (Aegon I) regularly traveled without KG protection.  So he would never contemplate a rule that required that one KG is always with the king -- it would make no sense at all.  

 

My first time commenting... I'd like to put in my 2 cents worth on the idea that Lyanna had twins...Jon and Meera. When Lyanna died, they discovered twins...to keep them safe, and simplify their deception, Ned took Jon and Howland took Meera.  In the books, they are both the exact same age (15), their descriptions are similar, and Meera is the warrior to Jojen's seer character.

It is otherwise pretty strange that even though Ned and Howland were such good friends, Howland never visited Winterfell... even tho' Howland had a eligible daughter to offer to one of Ned's sons and an eligible son to offer to Ned's daughters.

 

This could add a whole new dimension, as well as a new plot line to the story. Meera is now abandoned in the North (since Jojen's death in the show... and his weakened condition in the books) with no real purpose in sight... AND she's the warrior of the two- it makes sense for her to head back to Castle Black... in time for Jon's resurrection by Melisandre (who has no reason to be there except to be available for just such a task).

 

NOW.. the kicker! Danaerys has already received the prophecy that she will have no more children... NOT a good situation for the foundation of a dynasty! BUT the Targaryen's are famous for marrying brother and sister to keep the blood lines pure... if Jon (Snow, Stark) Targaryen and Meera (Reed) Targaryen (2 of the three heads of the Dragon, with Danaerys) were to marry to restore the dynasty, THAT would make internal and external sense of the plot lines and the whole idea, pushed many times, that the Targaryens prefer to marry within the family!! This would also clean up the rather torn and poorly-created plot of Tyrion being the bastard son of the Mad king.

 

I think it has possibilities!

There are a number of theories about a hidden child of Rhaegar and Lyanna -- Young Griff (looks like a Targaryen, spirited away by Ashara Dayne after she faked her death), Wylla Manderly (dies her hair, sent to Wyman for safekeeping), and so on.  I had not heard it suggested that Meera could be a secret Targ.  Interesting thought.  

 

Idk about the twins theory. Doesn't seem as though there is any credible evidence pointing in that direction. If Jon and Meera are twins, why split them up? How does splitting them up keep them safe or simplify the deception?

GRRM seems to think that separating the heirs is a good idea.  Larys Strong sent Aegon II's heirs to two different places.  Maester Luwin told Osha to take Bran and Rickon to two different locations.  ("Listen," Luwin said to Osha, "the princes . . . Robb's heirs.  Not . . . not together. . .do you hear?"  The wildling woman leaned on her spear.  "Aye.  Safer apart.")

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There are plenty of little clues about Jon being King throughout the books.  One of the biggest is BR of all people calling Jon king through one of his crows. 

 

So what? he can not be a future king? 

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Splitting them prevents the possibility that both would be killed by various unforeseen circumstances... we know that GRRM is highly influenced by the Starwars mythology, and this is one more reflection of that storyline idea.

 

Besides, it dovetails nicely into the "the Dragon has Three Heads" without worrying about the newly-revealed "Aegon".. who some have argued convincingly is really either a complete imposter or a Blackfyre pretender.  The fact that Aegon's story line has been excised from the GoT show's plots (nor has his connection with Dorne- Princess Arrianne made an appearance)  makes me think that this is one more red-herring plot device of GRRM in the books that the screenwriters felt safe in deleting.  It also produces a "cleaner" plot-line than the idea that Tyrion (who it has been emphasized several time was Tywin's "real son" vis-a-vis Jamie, ie: shared the intelligence, character and complexity of Tywin) was actually the product of a rape of Joanna by the Mad King (wouldn't even work as a case of Prima Nocta, since Jamie/Cersei had already been on the scene).  

 

And, again, the idea that Jon would marry Danaerys, when "it is known" that she will have no more children, leaves a restored Targaryen dynasty in doubt... something that GRRM seems to be clearly indicating.  So, all in all, it has the benefit of a surprise that was hinted at actually sitting there waiting to be revealed like so many other ideas GRRM has built into the story, it explains a number of things that have bothered others as much as myself, it "clarifies" some theory problems and it satisfies the requirements of a number of concepts and plot lines that have need to direction at this point in the revealed stories.  All in all, I think it meets the conditions of plausibility...

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Splitting them prevents the possibility that both would be killed by various unforeseen circumstances... we know that GRRM is highly influenced by the Starwars mythology, and this is one more reflection of that storyline idea.

 

Besides, it dovetails nicely into the "the Dragon has Three Heads" without worrying about the newly-revealed "Aegon".. who some have argued convincingly is really either a complete imposter or a Blackfyre pretender.  The fact that Aegon's story line has been excised from the GoT show's plots (nor has his connection with Dorne- Princess Arrianne made an appearance)  makes me think that this is one more red-herring plot device of GRRM in the books that the screenwriters felt safe in deleting.  It also produces a "cleaner" plot-line than the idea that Tyrion (who it has been emphasized several time was Tywin's "real son" vis-a-vis Jamie, ie: shared the intelligence, character and complexity of Tywin) was actually the product of a rape of Joanna by the Mad King (wouldn't even work as a case of Prima Nocta, since Jamie/Cersei had already been on the scene).  

 

And, again, the idea that Jon would marry Danaerys, when "it is known" that she will have no more children, leaves a restored Targaryen dynasty in doubt... something that GRRM seems to be clearly indicating.  So, all in all, it has the benefit of a surprise that was hinted at actually sitting there waiting to be revealed like so many other ideas GRRM has built into the story, it explains a number of things that have bothered others as much as myself, it "clarifies" some theory problems and it satisfies the requirements of a number of concepts and plot lines that have need to direction at this point in the revealed stories.  All in all, I think it meets the conditions of plausibility...

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So what? he can not be a future king? 

Can you clarify as to what you're trying to argue here? 

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Splitting them prevents the possibility that both would be killed by various unforeseen circumstances... we know that GRRM is highly influenced by the Starwars mythology, and this is one more reflection of that storyline idea.

 

Besides, it dovetails nicely into the "the Dragon has Three Heads" without worrying about the newly-revealed "Aegon".. who some have argued convincingly is really either a complete imposter or a Blackfyre pretender.  The fact that Aegon's story line has been excised from the GoT show's plots (nor has his connection with Dorne- Princess Arrianne made an appearance)  makes me think that this is one more red-herring plot device of GRRM in the books that the screenwriters felt safe in deleting.  It also produces a "cleaner" plot-line than the idea that Tyrion (who it has been emphasized several time was Tywin's "real son" vis-a-vis Jamie, ie: shared the intelligence, character and complexity of Tywin) was actually the product of a rape of Joanna by the Mad King (wouldn't even work as a case of Prima Nocta, since Jamie/Cersei had already been on the scene).  

 

And, again, the idea that Jon would marry Danaerys, when "it is known" that she will have no more children, leaves a restored Targaryen dynasty in doubt... something that GRRM seems to be clearly indicating.  So, all in all, it has the benefit of a surprise that was hinted at actually sitting there waiting to be revealed like so many other ideas GRRM has built into the story, it explains a number of things that have bothered others as much as myself, it "clarifies" some theory problems and it satisfies the requirements of a number of concepts and plot lines that have need to have direction at this point in the revealed stories.  All in all, I think it meets the conditions of plausibility...

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