R+L=J v.154

[Wolfshond]

Splitting them prevents the possibility that both would be killed by various unforeseen circumstances... we know that GRRM is highly influenced by the Starwars mythology, and this is one more reflection of that storyline idea.

 

Besides, it dovetails nicely into the "the Dragon has Three Heads" without worrying about the newly-revealed "Aegon".. who some have argued convincingly is really either a complete imposter or a Blackfyre pretender.  The fact that Aegon's story line has been excised from the GoT show's plots (nor has his connection with Dorne- Princess Arrianne made an appearance)  makes me think that this is one more red-herring plot device of GRRM in the books that the screenwriters felt safe in deleting.  It also produces a "cleaner" plot-line than the idea that Tyrion (who it has been emphasized several time was Tywin's "real son" vis-a-vis Jamie, ie: shared the intelligence, character and complexity of Tywin) was actually the product of a rape of Joanna by the Mad King (wouldn't even work as a case of Prima Nocta, since Jamie/Cersei had already been on the scene).  

 

And, again, the idea that Jon would marry Danaerys, when "it is known" that she will have no more children, leaves a restored Targaryen dynasty in doubt... something that GRRM seems to be clearly indicating.  So, all in all, it has the benefit of a surprise that was hinted at actually sitting there waiting to be revealed like so many other ideas GRRM has built into the story, it explains a number of things that have bothered others as much as myself, it "clarifies" some theory problems and it satisfies the requirements of a number of concepts and plot lines that have need to have direction at this point in the revealed stories.  All in all, I think it meets the conditions of plausibility...

[purple-eyes]

Can you clarify as to what you're trying to argue here? 

 

What I mean is that the hints or foreshadows in the series about "he is a king" can not serve as the firm evidence that he is literally the king at his birth (AKA, R and L got married lawfully and KG recognized new born Jon as the new king of westeros). 

There are plenty of prophecies and foretelling in the book, which may indicate he will eventually become a king (IMO this is very likely, either it is the king of the north, king of the westeros, night king, or king consort of Dany, or king who should have been, etc. .....)

But it is still up in the air that he is the king at his birth. 

[Nic.]

 

What I mean is that the hints or foreshadows in the series about "he is a king" can not serve as the firm evidence that he is literally the king at his birth (AKA, R and L got married lawfully and KG recognized new born Jon as the new king of westeros). 

There are plenty of prophecies and foretelling in the book, which may indicate he will eventually become a king (IMO this is very likely, either it is the king of the north, king of the westeros, night king, or king consort of Dany, or king who should have been, etc. .....)

But it is still up in the air that he is the king at his birth. 

Well no he's not technically king if you consider that his family was usurped by the time of his birth, if we really want to go into details.  Having said that I have a hard time imagining GRMM not acting upon the clues he's left about Jon being King if he wasn't planning on using that plot device at some point in time.  Hence i feel it's pretty much a given that under targaryen rule, Jon was king at birth.  As for how that is going to be revealed, who knows.  Maybe there is a legitimate document stored away in Lyanna's tomb which makes a lot of sense with Jon's dream and the fact that Robert would never desecrate the tomb. 

[Ygrain]

Splitting them prevents the possibility that both would be killed by various unforeseen circumstances... we know that GRRM is highly influenced by the Starwars mythology, and this is one more reflection of that storyline idea.
 
Besides, it dovetails nicely into the "the Dragon has Three Heads" without worrying about the newly-revealed "Aegon".. who some have argued convincingly is really either a complete imposter or a Blackfyre pretender.  The fact that Aegon's story line has been excised from the GoT show's plots (nor has his connection with Dorne- Princess Arrianne made an appearance)  makes me think that this is one more red-herring plot device of GRRM in the books that the screenwriters felt safe in deleting.  It also produces a "cleaner" plot-line than the idea that Tyrion (who it has been emphasized several time was Tywin's "real son" vis-a-vis Jamie, ie: shared the intelligence, character and complexity of Tywin) was actually the product of a rape of Joanna by the Mad King (wouldn't even work as a case of Prima Nocta, since Jamie/Cersei had already been on the scene).  
 
And, again, the idea that Jon would marry Danaerys, when "it is known" that she will have no more children, leaves a restored Targaryen dynasty in doubt... something that GRRM seems to be clearly indicating.  So, all in all, it has the benefit of a surprise that was hinted at actually sitting there waiting to be revealed like so many other ideas GRRM has built into the story, it explains a number of things that have bothered others as much as myself, it "clarifies" some theory problems and it satisfies the requirements of a number of concepts and plot lines that have need to direction at this point in the revealed stories.  All in all, I think it meets the conditions of plausibility...

 
No, GRRM is NOT highly influenced by Star Wars mythology. Alfie Allen said that there was a sort of SW situation, which Jon being the son of a (supposed) villain and raised by his uncle in ignorance of his true origin fulfills just fine.
 
Meera looks like a crannoggirl. She cannot be a product of a Targ and Stark.
 
 

But it is still up in the air that he is the king at his birth.

So, Rhaegar dishonoured the woman he loved by fathering a bastard on her? And Lyanna let herself be dishonoured? 
 
Take a look at the sample chapter:
 
[spoiler]

“I don’t care. I love you best of anyone. “
    ....
     “The Lord of the Eyrie can do as he likes. Can’t I still love you, even if I have to marry her? Ser Harrold has a common woman. Benjicot says she’s carrying his bastard.”
     Benjicot should learn to keep his fool’s mouth shut. “Is that what you would have from me? A bastard?” She pulled her fingers from his grasp. “Would you dishonor me that way?”[/spoiler]

 

Wouldn't Rhaegar at least try to pull the uncertain polygamy card, to give Lyanna status that at least some could be persuaded to recognize?

[purple-eyes]

Well no he's not technically king if you consider that his family was usurped by the time of his birth, if we really want to go into details.  Having said that I have a hard time imagining GRMM not acting upon the clues he's left about Jon being King if he wasn't planning on using that plot device at some point in time.  Hence i feel it's pretty much a given that under targaryen rule, Jon was king at birth.  As for how that is going to be revealed, who knows.  Maybe there is a legitimate document stored away in Lyanna's tomb which makes a lot of sense with Jon's dream and the fact that Robert would never desecrate the tomb. 

What document? A certificate which said: I, rhaegar, prince of dragonstone, declared that lyanna is my lawful wife (when I have one wife and two children at the same time, and nobody else including king and faith knew anything about this except my bodyguards) and my son or daughter is a true born prince or princess at the birth?
Do not you feel ridiculous?
Why not his nephew Robb stark, king of the north, marry both jenny and Roslyn to save himself since even a prince can make this work?

[Ygrain]

Why not his nephew Robb stark, king of the north, marry both jenny and Roslyn to save himself since even a prince can make this work?

Because, for an umpteenth time, Robb's surname is NOT Targaryen. Only Targaryen got a pass for breaking social customs and taboos. Or do you see anyone else in the Seven kingdoms wedding brother to sister like they did?

[Nic.]

What document? A certificate which said: I, rhaegar, prince of dragonstone, declared that lyanna is my lawful wife (when I have one wife and two children at the same time, and nobody else including king and faith knew anything about this except my bodyguards) and my son or daughter is a true born prince or princess at the birth?
Do not you feel ridiculous?
Why not his nephew Robb stark, king of the north, marry both jenny and Roslyn to save himself since even a prince can make this work?

I don't see your issue here.  Targaryens practiced legally recognized polygamy under their rule. The only house that we know who could do this.  Again the author isn't going to put clues forth upon for this plot device if he isn't intent on using it at some point in time.  This is up to the author not what you or I think is logical upon a real world context. Nor is it hard to see why people would rally around Jon as their king considering he's been the leader of the fight against the others who are the real threat for the realm.  If anything making him king from a plot standpoint is very easy. 

[Consigliere]

Splitting them prevents the possibility that both would be killed by various unforeseen circumstances... we know that GRRM is highly influenced by the Starwars mythology, and this is one more reflection of that storyline idea.

 

I've heard this argument before and I'm not really convinced by it, tbh. I mean, the war is over and Ned already claims Jon as his bastard so why not do the same with Meera as well. As for Star Wars, GRRM had this to say about it:

 

 

 

And while I am debunking rumors, let me also say that this story about me being inspired to finsh WINDS by STAR WARS is also utter bullshit, and I have NO idea where that one came from.  (I liked the first two STAR WARS movies, the third not so much, the prequels not at all, and the trailer for the new one had no impact on me one way or the other, and let's face it, even the best of 'em is no FORBIDDEN PLANET.  Robby is my robot ideal, not C3PO or R2D2).  Made up out of whole cloth, so far as I know.

It really stuns me how widely the STAR WARS thing has been disseminated.  Truly, internet journalism is an oxymoron.

As Mark Twain once said, "A lie can travel halfway around the world while truth is putting on its shoes."

 

 

 

And, again, the idea that Jon would marry Danaerys, when "it is known" that she will have no more children, leaves a restored Targaryen dynasty in doubt... something that GRRM seems to be clearly indicating.  So, all in all, it has the benefit of a surprise that was hinted at actually sitting there waiting to be revealed like so many other ideas GRRM has built into the story, it explains a number of things that have bothered others as much as myself, it "clarifies" some theory problems and it satisfies the requirements of a number of concepts and plot lines that have need to have direction at this point in the revealed stories.  All in all, I think it meets the conditions of plausibility...

 

 

I'm not sure that what MMD told Dany was actually a prophecy. Dany might be barren but I wouldn't count on it.

[purple-eyes]

Because, for an umpteenth time, Robb's surname is NOT Targaryen. Only Targaryen got a pass for breaking social customs and taboos. Or do you see anyone else in the Seven kingdoms wedding brother to sister like they did?

It is not about last name. It is about power coming from dragon.
Now they do not have that free pass. Incest is within their own house so people were tolerant.
And there were many other people broke traditions in the history, and they were not targaryen. Craster even married his own daughters!

[purple-eyes]

I don't see your issue here.  Targaryens practiced legally recognized polygamy under their rule. The only house that we know who could do this.  Again the author isn't going to put clues forth upon for this plot device if he isn't intent on using it at some point in time.  This is up to the author not what you or I think is logical upon a real world context. Nor is it hard to see why people would rally around Jon as their king considering he's been the leader of the fight against the others who are the real threat for the realm.  If anything making him king from a plot standpoint is very easy. 

Sure. Let Rhaegar pick up this tradition which was gone over two hundred years and fixed his issue perfectly. He is the chosen one and he can do whatever he wants.
How come daemon blackfyre did not run off with first dany and marry secretly then come back with a baby?

By the way, polygamy is likely something saved for dany or jon.
But I will not be surprised that nobody will have a polygamy marriage eventually because the whole series did not have one single case except caster who married his daughters.

[Consigliere]

He wasn't smart enough to think of it.

[Nic.]

Sure. Let Rhaegar pick up this tradition which was gone over two hundred years and fixed his issue perfectly. 

and yet from the clues we have, that's exactly what he did.  

[The Twinslayer]

Well no he's not technically king if you consider that his family was usurped by the time of his birth, if we really want to go into details.  Having said that I have a hard time imagining GRMM not acting upon the clues he's left about Jon being King if he wasn't planning on using that plot device at some point in time.  Hence i feel it's pretty much a given that under targaryen rule, Jon was king at birth.  As for how that is going to be revealed, who knows.  Maybe there is a legitimate document stored away in Lyanna's tomb which makes a lot of sense with Jon's dream and the fact that Robert would never desecrate the tomb. 

GRRM has acted on the clues.  He had Robb name Jon heir to the King in the North.  The only clues about Jon being a king come after Robb did that.  

So, Rhaegar dishonoured the woman he loved by fathering a bastard on her? And Lyanna let herself be dishonoured? 

 
Take a look at the sample chapter:
 
[spoiler]

“I don’t care. I love you best of anyone. “
    ....
     “The Lord of the Eyrie can do as he likes. Can’t I still love you, even if I have to marry her? Ser Harrold has a common woman. Benjicot says she’s carrying his bastard.”
     Benjicot should learn to keep his fool’s mouth shut. “Is that what you would have from me? A bastard?” She pulled her fingers from his grasp. “Would you dishonor me that way?”[/spoiler]

 

Wouldn't Rhaegar at least try to pull the uncertain polygamy card, to give Lyanna status that at least some could be persuaded to recognize?

Didn't you just say that the rules are different for Targaryens than they are for other families?  It seems that being mistress to a Targaryen is quite an honor -- or at least the Blackwoods, a good First Men family like the Starks,seem to think so:

"Lady Melissa," Hoster confirmed.  "Missy, they called her.  There is a statue of her in our godswood."

Which is probably there to remind us that there is a statue of Rhaegar's mistress in the Stark family tomb.  

 

Anyway, it seems unlikely that Rhaegar would be the first, or nearly the first, Prince of Dragonstone not to have a mistress.  It's a habit that runs in his family.  And as for Lyanna, she is described as someone who defies convention.  Rather like Arya, who does not care about convention either:

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

 

Arya screwed up her face.  "No," she said.  "That's Sansa."  She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing.

[Ygrain]

It is not about last name. It is about power coming from dragon.

I don't see any dragons around for the last +100 years, but the Targs were still able to do things that others couldn't.

 

 

Now they do not have that free pass. Incest is within their own house so people were tolerant.

And there were many other people broke traditions in the history, and they were not targaryen.

Cersei and Jaime also did things within their own family, yet people seem weirdly intolerant of it. Somehow, Lannisters do not seem to be a law unto themselves, no matter what they like to thing.   Even Cersei admits that they cannot do what the Targs could. It is really past me how Targs could do one thing that was abominable for everyone else, but for some reason would shun doing anything else against the custom.

 

 

Craster even married his own daughters!

Last time I checked, Craster wasn't from Seven Kingdoms. Please, next time, read the post you are responding to.

 

But now that you mention him, he also has a curious thing to say: a man should marry the woman he wants to bed. Curiously, the person this is adressed to is Jon.

[purple-eyes]

and yet from the clues we have, that's exactly what he did.  

Cool, daemon blackfyre asked the same thing and received a big no. Why did he need to start a rebellion? Why not run off and pick up this tradition like rhaegar and everything will be peachy?

[Ygrain]

But I will not be surprised that nobody will have a polygamy marriage eventually because the whole series did not have one single case except caster who married his daughters.

Then you need to re-read.

[purple-eyes]

Then you need to re-read.

Current ones. Not historical ones which were mentioned only by characters like aegon conqueror.
Please name one and thank you.
Except caster which I mentioned already.
By the way, rock wife and salty wife is different.

[Nic.]

GRRM has acted on the clues.  He had Robb name Jon heir to the King in the North.  The only clues about Jon being a king come after Robb did that.  

 

 

Most come from before Robb's will actually and the first two books.  Whether it's something like

 

"Kings are a rare sight in the in the North" Robert snorted. " More likely they were hiding under the snow.  Snow, Ned!"  Page 41 AGOT

 

or BR calling Jon King

 

or

 

The whole TOJ scene with the Kingsguard doing their duty. 

 

If you want more clues go look through the King In Hiding thread. 

 

[Ygrain]

Current ones. Not historical ones which were mentioned only by characters like aegon conqueror.
Please name one and thank you.
Except caster which I mentioned already.
By the way, rock wife and salty wife is different.

Ah, shifting milestones, are we?

 

Khals have more wives. Ygon Oldfather has eighteen of them.

... and before you say that these are not examples you wanted, I'd just remind you that you said that there were no examples in the whole series.

 

ETA: Oh, and BTW, Robb, the first KitN after three hundred years, might want to say something about picking up abandoned traditions.

[purple-eyes]

I don't see any dragons around for the last +100 years, but the Targs were still able to do things that others couldn't.n.

Exactly. If they can do both incest and polygamy, why they only did incest? All kings and princes were just so faithful to their loveless wives and did not want honor their mistresses as second wives?