R+L=J v.154

[Nic.]

Cool, daemon blackfyre asked the same thing and received a big no. Why did he need to start a rebellion? Why not run off and pick up this tradition like rhaegar and everything will be peachy?

Didn't know Rhaegar's last name was blackfyre. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

Current ones. Not historical ones which were mentioned only by characters like aegon conqueror.
Please name one and thank you.
Except caster which I mentioned already.
By the way, rock wife and salty wife is different.

Although he is a wilding and thus arguably not of the 7 kingdoms, Ygon Oldfather had 18 wives. No one seems to question whether all of his wife are real wives.

[purple-eyes]

Ah, shifting milestones, are we?
 
Khals have more wives. Ygon Oldfather has eighteen of them.
... and before you say that these are not examples you wanted, I'd just remind you that you said that there were no examples in the whole series.
 
ETA: Oh, and BTW, Robb, the first KitN after three hundred years, might want to say something about picking up abandoned traditions.

I did not give you complete descriptions, my bad.
Still, no single current case in westeros.
In the hbo show, they even completely deleted the information about polygamy. They Called visenya aegon's sister only. Interesting. Are we going to see a polygamy next season?

[purple-eyes]

Didn't know Rhaegar's last name was blackfyre. 

Darmon was legitimized. He is as a prince as rhaegar.

[Nic.]

Darmon was legitimized. He is as a prince as rhaegar.

No he's not a legitimate crown prince from birth.  You really should stop comparing the two. 

[purple-eyes]

No he's not a legitimate crown prince from birth.  You really should stop comparing the two. 

 

Well, this is the latest case for possible polygamy in the house of targ. 

Do you want me to compare Rhaegar with Maegor the cruel? Or Aegon the conqueror?

[The Twinslayer]

Most come from before Robb's will actually and the first two books.  Whether it's something like

 

"Kings are a rare sight in the in the North" Robert snorted. " More likely they were hiding under the snow.  Snow, Ned!"  Page 41 AGOT

 

or BR calling Jon King

 

or

 

The whole TOJ scene with the Kingsguard doing their duty. 

 

If you want more clues go look through the King In Hiding thread. 

 

The "King in Hiding" thread is really just a "wishful thinking" thread.  

 

Robert's "snort" isn't about kings hiding under snow.  It is about [i]common people[/i] hiding [i]from[/i] kings under snow.  If it is a reference to Jon, it means Jon is a commoner who is hiding, under snow, from a king.

 

"I've never seen such a vast emptiness.  [b]Where are all your people?"[/b] 

 

"Likely [b]they[/b] were too shy to come out," Ned jested.  He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth.  "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

 

Robert snorted.  "More likely [b]they[/b] were hiding under the snow."

 

By "BR," I take it you mean Mormont's Raven.  The first time he calls Jon "king" is in ADWD, long after Robb named Jon his heir as King in the North.

 

The toj scene with the Kingsguard is very much open to interpretation, and GRRM has said that the reason the KGs stayed at the toj and fought with Ned is that they were following orders.  So I don't think that can be taken as a clue that Jon is a legitimate Targaryen.  

[Consigliere]

Exactly. If they can do both incest and polygamy, why they only did incest? All kings and princes were just so faithful to their loveless wives and did not want honor their mistresses as second wives?

 

Maybe because polygamy was not the norm amongst the Targs. Even when Aegon I married Rhaenys it was considered unusual but not without precedent. We all know how that turned out with Maegor after Aenys' death. Seems to me that they stopped practicing polygamy for political reasons, not because it became illegal.

[Nic.]

The "King in Hiding" thread is really just a "wishful thinking" thread.  

 

Robert's "snort" isn't about kings hiding under snow.  It is about common people hiding from kings under snow.  If it is a reference to Jon, it means Jon is a commoner who is hiding, under snow, from a king.

 

 

 

 

By "BR," I take it you mean Mormont's Raven.  The first time he calls Jon "king" is in ADWD, long after Robb named Jon his heir as King in the North.

 

The toj scene with the Kingsguard is very much open to interpretation, and GRRM has said that the reason the KGs stayed at the toj and fought with Ned is that they were following orders.  So I don't think that can be taken as a clue that Jon is a legitimate Targaryen.  

Yes naturally there are a lot of wishful links to try and prove the king in hiding argument as you'd expect of any such thread, but there are plenty of quotes that do hint at it. 

 

 

yes in a literal context but the fact is the author still puts the name Snow out of nowhere in relations to kings being a rare sight in the north. 

 

and no the raven clearly calls out the name king to jon well before ADWD unless you're going to try and argue that it wasn't BR then. 

 

sure the TOJ scene is left for interpretation and allows you to ignore the obvious conclusions for their presence if that is what you chose to do, but i'm not going to just turn a blind eye down that road because it doesn't suit what i want.  . 

[The Twinslayer]

Ah, shifting milestones, are we?

 

Khals have more wives. Ygon Oldfather has eighteen of them.

... and before you say that these are not examples you wanted, I'd just remind you that you said that there were no examples in the whole series.

 

ETA: Oh, and BTW, Robb, the first KitN after three hundred years, might want to say something about picking up abandoned traditions.

Khals, Ygon Oldfather, and Aegon the Conqueror were not married in a sept, where one of the seven vows to the Seven is fidelity.  Rhaegar swore fidelity to Elia when he married her.  Taking another wife would break his wedding vows to Elia.

 

Also, Khals, Ygon Oldfather, and Aegon the Conqueror did not live in the Seven Kingdoms after Jaehaerys I made peace with the Faith, which condemned polygamy, and implemented a uniform system of laws for the Seven Kingdoms -- which heavily implies that the reason no-one praticed polygamy after the new laws came out was that polygamy was made illegal.  

 

And Maron Martell, Lyonel Barratheon and Balon Greyjoy would all disagree with the idea that Robb Stark was the first lord in Westeros in 300 years to declare independence from the Iron Throne  

[purple-eyes]

Yes naturally there are a lot of wishful links to try and prove the king in hiding argument as you'd expect of any such thread, but there are plenty of quotes that do hint at it. 

 

 

yes in a literal context but the fact is the author still puts the name Snow out of nowhere in relations to kings being a rare sight in the north. 

 

and no the raven clearly calls out the name king to jon well before ADWD unless you're going to try and argue that it wasn't BR then. 

 

sure the TOJ scene is left for interpretation and allows you to ignore the obvious conclusions for their presence if that is what you chose to do, but i'm not going to just turn a blind eye down that road because it doesn't suit what i want.  . 

 

if you already hold some opinion, then you are trying to find more and more evidences for it along the lines. 

It happened to me many times too. I wanted to see what I already believed and then I interpreted them as new evidences. 

But, this is very personal. 

[Ygrain]

Exactly. If they can do both incest and polygamy, why they only did incest? All kings and princes were just so faithful to their loveless wives and did not want honor their mistresses as second wives?

 

 

 

Maybe because polygamy was not the norm amongst the Targs. Even when Aegon I married Rhaenys it was considered unusual but not without precedent. 

This.

[purple-eyes]

 

 

This.

 

What a genius Rhaegar is!

Why Dunk the small did not think about to pick up this tradition to save the war and his own crown?

Why Rhaenyra can not marry Daemon Targaryen and her husband at the same time (daemon was rumored to murder her husband to marry Rhaenyra)?

Why Aegon IV can not marry some of his famous mistresses since he hated his wife so much and his mistress had to wait for his wife to die to become next queen?

[Nic.]

 

if you already hold some opinion, then you are trying to find more and more evidences for it along the lines. 

It happened to me many times too. I wanted to see what I already believed and then I interpreted them as new evidences. 

But, this is very personal. 

Naturally confirmation bias affects anyone trying to add on to their argument.  Clues are there for interpretation some more obvious than others.  Having said that when you wouldn't expect the two best kingsguard of the time to be protecting the mistress and her bastard son for their fallen prince over the king who's duty it is of theirs to protect when he's currently fleeing.  The logical conclusion that they were there protecting their actual king makes far more sense and even answers the reason for Ned's surprise at them being there. 

[purple-eyes]

Naturally confirmation bias affects anyone trying to add on to their argument.  Clues are there for interpretation some more obvious than others.  Having said that when you wouldn't expect the two best kingsguard of the time to be protecting the mistress and her bastard son for their fallen prince over the king who's duty it is of theirs to protect when he's currently fleeing.  The logical conclusion that they were there protecting their actual king makes far more sense and even answers the reason for Ned's surprise at them being there. 

 

That is your logic. GRRM said they were ordered to stay there so they did not have other choice even they did not like it. 

And we were told that KG can be used to protect mistress and bastard. 

For me, this is logical enough for them to stay there. And who can say they are not planning to take the baby and join Viserys after Lyanna died and protect them together? If they waited some days for the birth of the baby and then ran to DS to protect their king, they were still true to their vow. 

[Nic.]

 

That is your logic. GRRM said they were ordered to stay there so they did not have other choice even they did not like it. 

And we were told that KG can be used to protect mistress and bastard. 

For me, this is logical enough for them to stay there. And who can say they are not planning to take the baby and join Viserys after Lyanna died and protect them together? If they waited some days for the birth of the baby and then ran to DS to protect their king, they were still true to their vow. 

yes orders given by the crown prince when he was still alive.  I don't see any precedent anywhere stating the remaining members of the kingsguard are allowed to protect a mistress and her bastard child on the orders of a dead crown prince when their actual king is fleeing for his life and is in dire need of their protection.  Fairly certain that you're basically breaking your vow by default considering who you'd be currently receiving your orders from.  not to mention there's a little tidbit about Gerold Hightower stating that he swore a vow as his reason for being at the TOJ. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

What a genius Rhaegar is!

Why Dunk the small did not think about to pick up this tradition to save the war and his own crown?

Why Rhaenyra can not marry Daemon Targaryen and her husband at the same time (daemon was rumored to murder her husband to marry Rhaenyra)?

Why Aegon IV can not marry some of his famous mistresses since he hated his wife so much and his mistress had to wait for his wife to die to become next queen?

For political reasons, polygamy would be a big problem. I don't believe Rhaegar would have resorted to polygamy if he thought he had a choice. After Elia could have no more children, Rhaegar needed to have a third child to be the third head but could not get it from Elia. Once he decided to have the child with Lyanna, marrying her made sense for multiple reasons, including wanted the third head to be a "true" dragon in every sense. So Rhaegar did not just casually decide he wanted another wife, so go ahead and get one. The most compelling case, IMHO, is that Rhaegar did it largely out of desperation. He believed that the prophecy demanded it. He never would have considered it otherwise.

[Ygrain]

 

What a genius Rhaegar is!

Why Dunk the small did not think about to pick up this tradition to save the war and his own crown?

Why Rhaenyra can not marry Daemon Targaryen and her husband at the same time (daemon was rumored to murder her husband to marry Rhaenyra)?

Why Aegon IV can not marry some of his famous mistresses since he hated his wife so much and his mistress had to wait for his wife to die to become next queen?

Dunk wanted to marry a commoner. That seemed to be far worse than polygamy.

Rhaenyra made the mistake to ask permission first instead of forgiveness. She didn't repeat that mistake at the moment when the condition that the king stated as an obstacle passed. - BTW, does it make sense to you that she and Daemon would ask something that was totally not an option?

Are you under a misconception that Aegon somehow cared about the honour of his mistresses? The man who forced Naerys into marital duties even though he knew that another pregnancy could kill her? Didn't allow her to become a septa? Really, he didn't have to bother with polygamy, he merely could have granted her wish and marry anyone he wanted. Only, it seems that he wasn't interested. - Oh, and why did Daemon think that he could be allowed a second marriage if it wasn't an option?

 

--------

 

Is it just me, or is there a Naerys-Elia parallel?

ETA: And perhaps even Aemon the Dragonknight-Arthur Dayne, regarding their relationship?

[purple-eyes]

yes orders given by the crown prince when he was still alive.  I don't see any precedent anywhere stating the remaining members of the kingsguard are allowed to protect a mistress and her bastard child on the orders of a dead crown prince when their actual king is fleeing for his life and is in dire need of their protection.  Fairly certain that you're basically breaking your vow by default considering who you'd be currently receiving your orders from.  

 

Prince is dead but his order has not been finished (Lyanna is still alive and needs to be guarded). 

What type of faithful KG will abandon the order just because the person is dead?

Renly died already, but Brienne were still trying to revenge for him, even without a certain order. 

Faithfulness will not be gone due to the death. 

[Nic.]

 

Prince is dead but his order has not been finished (Lyanna is still alive and needs to be guarded). 

What type of faithful KG will abandon the order just because the person is dead?

Renly died already, but Brienne were still trying to revenge for him, even without a certain order. 

Faithfulness will not be gone due to the death. 

Their king is in need of protection without his kingsguard by his side.  He is the priority over Lyanna. 

A faithful kingsguard upholds his vow to protect his king. 

Gerold Hightower states he swore a vow as his reason for being there at the tower of joy. 

He swore to protect his king.