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The Puppets of Ice and Fire


Kingmonkey

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Nicely put together, Kingmonkey.

Personally I’ve no doubt that GRRM has very deliberately chosen his words, phrasing, descriptions to form these echoes, parallels.

If aSoIaF was literally a piece of music, then ToJ would perhaps be the idée fixe and we’d be able to hear these motifs recurring throughout. It’s intriguing as a literary/poetic device, but even more so if there is in-story purpose behind/to it...
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If aSoIaF was literally a piece of music, then ToJ would perhaps be the idée fixe and we’d be able to hear these motifs recurring throughout. It’s intriguing as a literary/poetic device, but even more so if there is in-story purpose behind/to it...

 

That's a very nice parallel. Where we see an echo that doesn't appear to have a direct connection, such as Brienne's journey, then the  literary equivalent of a musical motif makes a lot of sense. 

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Excellent essay, @Kingmonkey! Just wondering if you've considered Sansa's last chapter in aSoS as part of the possible event echoes? (Chapter 80) It's not exceptionally straightforward, but I believe that the second part of the chapter, where Lysa is in the Eyrie's throne room with Sansa, might fit your pattern.
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 Just wondering if you've considered Sansa's last chapter in aSoS as part of the possible event echoes? (Chapter 80) It's not exceptionally straightforward, but I believe that the second part of the chapter, where Lysa is in the Eyrie's throne room with Sansa, might fit your pattern.

 

Colour me intrigued. I did obscurely reference that chapter in the essay, when talking about White Walls, but that was about the earlier part of the chapter. Daemon dreamed about "This pale white castle, you, a dragon bursting from an egg." He took the pale white castle to be White Walls, which he described as looking like it was "made of snow", and the "you" was Duncan the Tall, not literally a giant but close enough, perhaps. Probably coincidence, but it piqued my curiosity. 

 

I just did a quick scan through the chapter and the only thing that really sprung to mind was two guards in blue cloaks, with Marillion arguably acting as the third, as he uses a spear like the guards' to bar the door. Could you elaborate a bit?

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First off, I love this. Well done!!

 

Second, I'm going to stick with your "big four" for now, but it seems like all four are connected not just via ritual, but a ritual sacrifice, yes? Intended or not. Like the tower of joy--a fight to the death despite circumstances over a child (whether the child is in the tower or not). And the costs--yes, Jon is healthy. But everyone else. . . 

 

1. Robert--Cersei's "sacrificed" him to save her children. Granted, she loathed him, but he kept heron her position as queen. She could manipulate him and use his power against him. So, giving that up is at least a little bit of a sacrifice. 

But the sacrifice goes WAY wrong--Realm goes BOOM via Joffrey. One of the children she "sacrificed" Robert for.

 

2. Maggy--again, Cersei makes a blood sacrifice--not much of one. But she's also told of an impending, unintended sacrifice. The cost of becoming Queen? Your children will die AND you won't keep your position. Cersei's just a kid. She doesn't get it. But Maggy's telling her the cost of gaining what she wants.

 

3. Battle at the Brothel--Jaime's indulging in his dislike of Ned (for lots of complicated psychological reasons) by dressing it up in "righteous" indignation over Tyrion. But this indulgence of blood costs him--his sword hand. His lover/sister. His sense of self. Ned makes the connection to the tower because he's been through something similar. But Jaime's cluless--and then he pays.

 

4. The tent of joy ( :) ): Dany's desperate re: Drogo (understandable). She's willing to sacrifice herself. But Mirri says "not you and not horse." Dany should know that means someone else will be sacrificed--maybe she does and thinks it will be one of the remaining khalassar. Result? Dead, monstrous Rhaego AND comatose Drogo. 

 

Will have to mull over the rest of your list to see if any of it fits. . . .

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Colour me intrigued. I did obscurely reference that chapter in the essay, when talking about White Walls, but that was about the earlier part of the chapter. Daemon dreamed about "This pale white castle, you, a dragon bursting from an egg." He took the pale white castle to be White Walls, which he described as looking like it was "made of snow", and the "you" was Duncan the Tall, not literally a giant but close enough, perhaps. Probably coincidence, but it piqued my curiosity. 
 
I just did a quick scan through the chapter and the only thing that really sprung to mind was two guards in blue cloaks, with Marillion arguably acting as the third, as he uses a spear like the guards' to bar the door. Could you elaborate a bit?

The two guards at the door were what started me off looking for a third. Which I think though it appears to be Marillion in the beginning actually transfers to Lysa in the role of guard. It's pushing it but if you combine the people mentioned in the garden with the people in the throne room there is a sly 7 v. 3. In addition as Marillion is escorting Sansa to the throne room he refers to a song he is writing that appears to be about Sansa entitled The Roadside Rose, calling to mind a parallel between Lyanna and Sansa. The imagery of the throne room brings to mind Dawn and Starfall. This made my sleep deprived brain begin to equate Lysa with Ashara. I admit that there's not a lot to it. More gut instinct than anything, but it just seemed to click. I really think that whole chapter is just a treasure trove. Been talking to Sly Wren and will probably open a forensic file on it over at the other place at shortly.
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Colour me intrigued. I did obscurely reference that chapter in the essay, when talking about White Walls, but that was about the earlier part of the chapter. Daemon dreamed about "This pale white castle, you, a dragon bursting from an egg." He took the pale white castle to be White Walls, which he described as looking like it was "made of snow", and the "you" was Duncan the Tall, not literally a giant but close enough, perhaps. Probably coincidence, but it piqued my curiosity. 
 
I just did a quick scan through the chapter and the only thing that really sprung to mind was two guards in blue cloaks, with Marillion arguably acting as the third, as he uses a spear like the guards' to bar the door. Could you elaborate a bit?

As to the first part of your reply. The more I think on it, the more intrigued I become. Sounds like quite possibly a parallel to Winterfell. I haven't yet read D&E. I've been waiting for the combined book this fall, but from what you're saying it does seem awfully suspicious, especially when taking into account the GoHH dream and this Sansa Chapter.
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First off, I love this. Well done!!
 
Second, I'm going to stick with your "big four" for now, but it seems like all four are connected not just via ritual, but a ritual sacrifice, yes? Intended or not. Like the tower of joy--a fight to the death despite circumstances over a child (whether the child is in the tower or not). And the costs--yes, Jon is healthy. But everyone else. . . 
 
1. Robert--Cersei's "sacrificed" him to save her children. Granted, she loathed him, but he kept heron her position as queen. She could manipulate him and use his power against him. So, giving that up is at least a little bit of a sacrifice. 
But the sacrifice goes WAY wrong--Realm goes BOOM via Joffrey. One of the children she "sacrificed" Robert for.
 
2. Maggy--again, Cersei makes a blood sacrifice--not much of one. But she's also told of an impending, unintended sacrifice. The cost of becoming Queen? Your children will die AND you won't keep your position. Cersei's just a kid. She doesn't get it. But Maggy's telling her the cost of gaining what she wants.
 
3. Battle at the Brothel--Jaime's indulging in his dislike of Ned (for lots of complicated psychological reasons) by dressing it up in "righteous" indignation over Tyrion. But this indulgence of blood costs him--his sword hand. His lover/sister. His sense of self. Ned makes the connection to the tower because he's been through something similar. But Jaime's cluless--and then he pays.
 
4. The tent of joy ( :) ): Dany's desperate re: Drogo (understandable). She's willing to sacrifice herself. But Mirri says "not you and not horse." Dany should know that means someone else will be sacrificed--maybe she does and thinks it will be one of the remaining khalassar. Result? Dead, monstrous Rhaego AND comatose Drogo. 
 
Will have to mull over the rest of your list to see if any of it fits. . . .

Sticking to this pattern of sacrifice, that would be something else to tie the Sansa chapter into the "Echo Theory." Lysa was "sacrificed" through the moon door. Which causes me to wonder if Ashara might not have been a sacrifice launched from the palestone tower? Maybe there's more truth behind some of the jokes than previously expected.
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Sticking to this pattern of sacrifice, that would be something else to tie the Sansa chapter into the "Echo Theory." Lysa was "sacrificed" through the moon door. Which causes me to wonder if Ashara might not have been a sacrifice launched from the palestone tower? Maybe there's more truth behind some of the jokes than previously expected.

Maybe--I have a hard time seeing why she'd be actively/knowingly sacrificed. Unless you're thinking of something specific. 

 

But the idea that her suicide could be an inadvertent sacrifice (which is what I think might have happened at the tower)--that could work.

 

And, yes--I'm not fully sold on the Sansa scene's fitting the pattern here. But it is a twisted sacrifice--through a weirwood moon-door in a room with a weirwood throne. Though this weirwood isn't rooted--no way to drink the sacrifice. And Petyr may be putting Sansa out of harm's way, but he seemed to relish killing Lyssa--saying "only Cat" to her face. Like Jaime: not a sacrifice but an indulgence.

 

But back to the OP--it seems like what happened at the tower stands out against the "big four" as being self-sacrifice. Willing to risk death for a cause. Vs. the other four--willing to kill for a cause. I plum forgot about Cersei's probably killing Melara. Even pushes her down a well (not sure that's supposed to be reference to the Nightfort, but still--sacrifice).

 

The other 4 have turned out badly. But the tower of joy--Jon seems poised to rise. Seems like this ritual--mistaken or not--it's "working."

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Maybe--I have a hard time seeing why she'd be actively/knowingly sacrificed. Unless you're thinking of something specific. 
 
But the idea that her suicide could be an inadvertent sacrifice (which is what I think might have happened at the tower)--that could work.
 
And, yes--I'm not fully sold on the Sansa scene's fitting the pattern here. But it is a twisted sacrifice--through a weirwood moon-door in a room with a weirwood throne. Though this weirwood isn't rooted--no way to drink the sacrifice. And Petyr may be putting Sansa out of harm's way, but he seemed to relish killing Lyssa--saying "only Cat" to her face. Like Jaime: not a sacrifice but an indulgence.
 
But back to the OP--it seems like what happened at the tower stands out against the "big four" as being self-sacrifice. Willing to risk death for a cause. Vs. the other four--willing to kill for a cause. I plum forgot about Cersei's probably killing Melara. Even pushes her down a well (not sure that's supposed to be reference to the Nightfort, but still--sacrifice).
 
The other 4 have turned out badly. But the tower of joy--Jon seems poised to rise. Seems like this ritual--mistaken or not--it's "working."

Not to push it down your throat, but, if you reread the scene equating Sansa to Lyanna and Ashara to Lysa you might see better where I am coming from. Or I just need sleep. ;)
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Not to push it down your throat, but, if you reread the scene equating Sansa to Lyanna and Ashara to Lysa you might see better where I am coming from. Or I just need sleep. ;)

Yes--I think I get it now. One sacrifice is willing (Ashara) the other an execution? Close?

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Yes--I think I get it now. One sacrifice is willing (Ashara) the other an execution? Close?

Possibly. Or did someone help Ashara with her sacrifice as well. (Push her) Is this whole scene shedding light on what happened to Ashara?
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Very interesting read, Kingmonkey!

Two small things atm,

4. Summerhall may have been another of these events. We have very few details, but we know that at least one Kingsguard was there, Duncan the Tall, who seems to have been involved in these echoes wherever he went. After Duncan's death at Harrenhal, the command of the Kingsguard passed on to Ser Gerold Hightower, described in the world book as the new young lord commander. It's reasonable to speculate Dunk wasn't the only Kingsguard fatality there, or we might expect a more senior Kingsguard to have taken Dunk's place. Could there have been three? There were seven eggs, perhaps like the seven that faced the three. We've got a woods-witch present, and a castle burned to the ground. From Jenny's song we have High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts, which might bring to mind the shadows dancing in the tent. We've got the death of a king, and the birth of a dragon, Rhaegar. We might speculate that Duncan the Tall, poor dumb Dunk the Lunk, despite having lived through more of these echoes than anyone, got in the way of dragons hatching by rescuing Rhaegar.

What we do know about Summerhall is that it was Jaehaerys' intent to fulfil a prophecy about hatching dragons, and that in itself fits the symbolism we have here. We know that Rhaegar had reason to believe that he was the prince born amidst salt and smoke because of Summerhall, so he thought it important. This is obviously highly speculative stuff, but if we find out that there were three kingsguards at Summerhall, I reserve the right to say told you so!

Where I bolded Harrenhal, I think you mean Summerhall there..

As well Jaehaerys.. should be Aegon V, right?
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Very interesting read, Kingmonkey!

Two small things atm,

Where I bolded Harrenhal, I think you mean Summerhall there..

As well Jaehaerys.. should be Aegon V, right?

 

Good spots, thank you. For some reason as I was doing that essay I kept mixing up Harrenhall, Whitewalls and Summerhall, I'm not surprised at least one mistake slipped through.

 

I will make the appropriate corrections, but apparently there's no point doing so for a few days as we're back into board upgrade mode.

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  • 3 months later...

Very interesting read,

Kingmonkey

!



Two small things atm,


 

Where I bolded Harrenhal, I think you mean Summerhall there..



As well Jaehaerys.. should be Aegon V, right?

This is the first thing I've seen explains Summerhall without being too crack pot.  I've always believed there was some kind of ritual happening there and Rhaegar read about it and that's what prompted him to be a warrior and try to fulfill the PtwP prophecy by recreating the ritual. It's refreshing to see something that connects everything as well as you did here.  It seems like there are a lot of theories floating around that are all connected somehow but its hard to put it all together like this.  Well done!

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  • 2 months later...
On 8/25/2015 at 4:19 PM, Kingmonkey said:

10.There are overlaps and differences, but we can start to consider a list of signs that seem to be shared by a number of different examples:
Seven against three.

  1. Three Kingsguards, or some equivalent / cloaked figures.
  2. Event takes place at sunset with a blood-red sky.
  3. Ghost / wraith imagery.
  4. A tower long fallen / destroyed at the end of the event.
  5. A parley before the battle.
  6. Promises and vows.
  7. A refusal to flee.
  8. A great red stallion / stallion on fire.
  9. A notably martial woman.
  10. The sign of the falling star / red comet.
  11. Animal totems.
  12. Bloody walls.
  13. Eight deaths.
  14. A maegi or possibly similar wise/magical figures.

Have you looked into the epilogue of aDwD since then? Because it really is similar to the events you are describing especially prologue of aGOT, although it has some problems. I am only pasting the parts I find related here since it is a long passage:

Quote

The messenger was a boy of eight or nine, so bundled up in fur he seemed a bear cub11 [...]. The door was opened by a serving girl, a skinny thing in a  fur-lined robe much too big for her. Ser Kevan stamped the  snow off his boots, removed his cloak1, […]. Once past the chamber door, the chill was  palpable. Black ash and dying embers were all that  remained of the hearthfire. A few flickering candles cast  pools of dim light here and there.  The rest was shrouded in shadow3 … except beneath the  open window, where a spray of ice crystals glittered in the  moonlight, swirling in the wind. […] Blowing snow danced around it, and the moon painted it  silver.  Not silver. White. The bird is white11. […]  “Winter,” said Ser Kevan. The word made a white mist in  the air3. […]  Then something slammed him in the chest between the  ribs, hard as a giant’s fist. It drove the breath from him and  sent him lurching backwards. […]  A quarrel was sunk almost to the fletching in his chest. No.  No, that was how my brother died. Blood was seeping out  around the shaft. “Pycelle,” he muttered, confused. “Help  me … I …
Then he saw. Grand Maester Pycelle was seated at his  table, his head pillowed on the great leather-bound tome  before him. Sleeping, Kevan thought … until he blinked and  saw the deep red gash in the old man’s spotted skull and  the blood pooled beneath his head12, staining the pages of  his book. […] Was this his nephew’s work? “Tyrion?” he called. “Where  … ?”  
“Far away,” a half-familiar voice replied.  He stood in a pool of shadow3 by a bookcase, plump,  pale-faced3, round-shouldered, clutching a crossbow in soft  powdered hands. Silk slippers swaddled his feet.  “Varys?14”  The eunuch set the crossbow down. “
[…] You do not deserve to die alone on such a cold dark night […]  I thought the crossbow fitting. You shared so much with  Lord Tywin, why not that? […]”  “Aegon?” For a moment he did not understand. Then he  remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak1, 2, the  cloth stained with his blood and brains. “Dead. He’s dead.”  “No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here5,10.  […]”  Kevan Lannister tried to cry out … to his guards, his wife,  his brother … but the words would not come. Blood  dribbled from his mouth. He shuddered violently.  “I am sorry.” Varys wrung his hands. “You are suffering, I  know, yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman.  Time to make an end to it.” The eunuch pursed his lips and  gave a little whistle.  Ser Kevan was cold as ice, and every labored breath  sent a fresh stab of pain through him. He glimpsed  movement, heard the soft scuffling sound of slippered feet  on stone. A child emerged from a pool of darkness, a pale  boy in a ragged robe, no more than nine or ten. Another  rose up behind the Grand Maester’s chair. The girl9 who had  opened the door for him was there as well. They were all  around him, half a dozen of them, white-faced children with  dark eyes, boys and girls together.  And in their hands, the daggers.

I have marked which part of the text goes with which part of the signs.

There are some problems:

  • This happens during the night, but so does aGOT Prologue. And there are mentions of stars. but there is the crimson cloak which could work for the color imagery.
  • Then there is the big problem of two people dying and one person missing in the 3 vs. 7:
    • Varys/Tyrion + half a dozen pale children are the 7
    • Maester Pycelle + Tywin/Kevan + Shae are the 3: I am combining this with what happened in the tower of the hand together as it would also add the image of tower long fallen (Cersei burned it). The reason I am merging Tyrion/Varys and Tywin/Kevan is because the text literally says so. I have underlined it.
    • If we again go with aGOT prologue, Gared dies after everyone else. Shae dies before everyone else.
    • It also really has the element of signalling for some form of ritual, since VArys (the maegi figure) half kills Kevan and signals the kids to finish the job, exactly like the aGOT prologue.
  • I am reaching for the comet as Aegon being the "Red Messenger" conceptually.
  • This ritual "births" Aegon as a Dragon I guess.

I am not sure if this is good enough, but it does resemble some of the kings you mentioned in the OP.

PS. I was so excited that forgot to say: Very very interesting read. Thanks for putting everything together :)

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/02/2016 at 7:17 PM, shizett said:

Have you looked into the epilogue of aDwD since then? Because it really is similar to the events you are describing especially prologue of aGOT, although it has some problems. I am only pasting the parts I find related here since it is a long passage:

With apologies for taking so long to reply -- this had not occurred to me, and by George (RRM) I think you're onto something. There are some more parallels worth mentioning:

The scene takes place in the rookery, so we have our tower. 

...where a spray of ice crystals glittered in the moonlight, swirling in the wind - a descriptive line early on of something blue (ice crystals) swirling in the air, like rose petals at the ToJ and mirrored in most of the echoes.

"Tyrion?" he called. "Where … ?"

"Far away," a half-familiar voice replied. -- the exact phrase Ser Gerold Dayne said to Ned in the fever dream when Ned asked him where the three KG had been.

The eunuch set the crossbow down. "Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children." -- Interestingly "for the children" is pretty much the reason Ned gave for the rebellion in AGoT ch.33. In both cases what they mean is debated. 

As to the identity of the third of the tree, how about... Ned Stark? 

Wait for it, let me explain. There's a white raven in Pycelle's room when Kevan arrives. This raven bears a message that is the same as the the words of house Stark: Winter is coming. Thus perhaps the previously dead third is not Shae, but Ned, with the white raven acting as his stand-in. 

I'm not sure of this as a part of a ritual, but it fits very nicely in with the literary paralleling. Given the purpose this scene plays in the telling of the story -- heralding the arrival of a dragon (Aegon), as you observe, following the pattern of echoes here makes a lot of sense.

Great spot!

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I read this thread completely through before making a comment.  Hopefully I catch all the bits I wished to reply to as I was reading!

The OP mentions that Duncan fulfills the echo as the "falling star."  As such, so could Brienne echo Dayne in some situation in the future.  Additionally, Sansa is associated various times with imagery of a bat, and Arya with imagery of a wolf.  Perhaps we'll see an echo of the Tower of Joy some time in the future involving these three?

There is also an echo of a bat and a bull amongst Jon's friends in the Night's Watch.  Pyp and Grenn were the bat and the bull I believe.  (One is described as having bat ears, the other as big and as stubborn as an aurochs.)  I forget who the hightower/falling star echo was.  Or perhaps it was a friend of Jon's but Jon himself?  I personally didn't discover this parallel, but came upon it in another thread quite a while ago.

With regard to seven against three, the Starks can make a possible "seven" - Ned, Cat, and their children - as can the crew of the Shy Maid also includes seven people (minus Tyrion), although I'm not sure who their "three" opponent could be either.

Another "seven" (although perhaps really stretching it) and "three" that I've come across occurs in two Bran chapters in ASoS and ADwD.  Both scenes involve Bran (while warging Summer) taking over a kill from another wolf pack:

The deer was down and dying when he reached her, ringed by eight of his small grey cousins. The heads of the pack had begun to feed, the male first and then his female, taking turns tearing flesh from the red underbelly of their prey. The others waited patiently, all but the tail, who paced in a wary circle a few strides from the rest, his own tail tucked low. He would eat the last of all, whatever his brothers left him. ... One angered him so much that he whirled in a black fury and tore out the attacker's throat. After that the others kept their distance.

ASoS, Bran I

The eyes of the three wolves glowed yellow. The direwolf swung his head from side to side, nostrils flaring, then bared his fangs in a snarl. The younger male backed away. The direwolf could smell the fear in him. Tail, he knew. But the one-eyed wolf answered with a growl and moved to block his advance. Head. And he does not fear me though I am twice his size.  ADwD, Bran I

On 8/25/2015 at 9:11 AM, Kingmonkey said:

The Dunk & Egg stories act as a kind of microcosm of the world of fire and ice; vignettes that inform and give background. They are a way GRRM can explore the world he created in parallel, mirroring but not interfering with his overarching novel plot.

Since we're one the subject of puppets and Dunk & Egg, there is this scene in The Hedge Knight, which parallels Daenerys' dragon eggs hatching:

One man-at-arms was dangling the puppets of Florian and Jonquil from his hands as another set them afire with a torch. Three more men were opening chests, spilling more puppets on the ground and stamping on them. The dragon puppet was scattered all about them, a broken wing here, its head there, its tail in three pieces. And in the midst of it all stood Prince Aerion, resplendent in a red velvet doublet with long dagged sleeves, twisting Tanselle's arm in both hands.  The Hedge Knight

These pieces parallel where Daenerys lays her dragon eggs on Drogo's funeral pyre.

She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-and-stars. The black beside his heart, under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs. When she kissed him for the last time, Dany could taste the sweetness of the oil on his lips.  AGoT, Danaerys X

Aerion standing "in the midst of it all" the dragon pieces (i.e. dragons) is quite reminiscent of Moqorro's prophecy of "dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark" and Tyrion "snarling in the midst of all."  I'm not sure what the connection might be.

On 8/25/2015 at 9:17 AM, Kingmonkey said:

A true dream then, as Duncan would eventually become Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. "I dreamed it. This pale white castle, you, a dragon bursting from an egg." It may be the dream was actually about Summerhall, but Daemon believed it was about Whitewalls.

This is a bit off topic, but perhaps Egg's attempt to hatch dragons was a success?  (If so, I'm assuming the dragon(s) was/were killed.)

On 9/3/2015 at 4:35 PM, Lady Dyanna said:
Quote

 
Colour me intrigued. I did obscurely reference that chapter in the essay, when talking about White Walls, but that was about the earlier part of the chapter. Daemon dreamed about "This pale white castle, you, a dragon bursting from an egg." He took the pale white castle to be White Walls, which he described as looking like it was "made of snow", and the "you" was Duncan the Tall, not literally a giant but close enough, perhaps. Probably coincidence, but it piqued my curiosity. 
 
I just did a quick scan through the chapter and the only thing that really sprung to mind was two guards in blue cloaks, with Marillion arguably acting as the third, as he uses a spear like the guards' to bar the door. Could you elaborate a bit?

The two guards at the door were what started me off looking for a third. Which I think though it appears to be Marillion in the beginning actually transfers to Lysa in the role of guard. It's pushing it but if you combine the people mentioned in the garden with the people in the throne room there is a sly 7 v. 3. In addition as Marillion is escorting Sansa to the throne room he refers to a song he is writing that appears to be about Sansa entitled The Roadside Rose, calling to mind a parallel between Lyanna and Sansa. The imagery of the throne room brings to mind Dawn and Starfall. This made my sleep deprived brain begin to equate Lysa with Ashara. I admit that there's not a lot to it. More gut instinct than anything, but it just seemed to click. I really think that whole chapter is just a treasure trove. Been talking to Sly Wren and will probably open a forensic file on it over at the other place at shortly.

Just a minor add, but when Sansa is being pushed out the Moon Door, she promises several time that she'll be good as a way of pleading to Lysa not to throw her out the Moon Door.  Like Lyanna, a promise is being used in the form of pleading. 

 

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