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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.7

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  • The A+J = T theory puts forth the claim that Tyrion Lannister is the illegitimate son of Aerys II Targaryen and Joanna Lannister.

     

    Note: Individually, none of these clues prove that Tyrion's biological father is Aerys. However, when taken together, these clues provide a strong argument in favor of the theory.

     

    Personal Note:  I want to express my thanks to Consigliere who lived up to his name fabulously by editing, reformatting and enhancing my prior OP in the manner presented below (which is a tremendous improvement both in terms of the substance and presentation of the OP).

     

    Clues in favor of A+J = T:

     

    - Pale blond hair (sounds closer to Targ color than Lannister color) with patches of black hair (the Black hair could be from Betha Blackwood, the grandmother of Aerys, which might be even more compelling evidence given that there is no known source of black hair on the Lannister side).

     

    - Mismatched eyes, one black and one green (only other example of mismatched eyes is Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard—not an indication necessarily of the mismatch as hereditary, but perhaps a similarity planted by the author).

     

    - Fascination with fire (pretended it was dragonfire) and dragons / dreamed of dragons / asked his uncle for a dragon as a gift / admired the dragon skull (while possibly others had some of these traits, readers hear few if any other examples).

     

    - Barristan admits to Dany that Aerys lusted after Joanna, is the woman he would have wanted to marry and took inappropriate liberties during the bedding ceremony at her wedding (not an indication of sex at that time—just that Aerys wanted Joanna).

     

    - Tywin refuses to let Tyrion inherit CR even though Jaime cannot inherit as a member of the King’s Guard and tells Tyrion, “Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine” (perhaps actually a confession that Tywin suspects that Tyrion might not be Tywin’s true-born son or perhaps really just a clue from the author).

     

    - Tywin on deathbed telling Tyrion, “You are no son of mine” (either a literal confession or a clue provided by the author).

     

    - Born deformed and described to have had a tail (similar to certain still-born Targaryens, perhaps including Rhaego).

     

    - References to Tyrion having cast a shadow that made him as tall as a king.

     

    - Moqorro’s vision—“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.” (Ambiguous whether Tyrion is an additional dragon or just among the other dragons).

     

    - Uses the alias of Hugor Hill (Hugor of the Hill was the name of the first king of the Andals and Hill are bastards from the Westerlands—if Aerys were known to be Tyrion’s father, Tyrion would be Tyrion Hill—and use of the name Hugor Hill could be interpreted to mean that Tyrion is a "royal bastard").

     

    - Tells Jon, “All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes.” (Perhaps a message from the author that this dwarf really is a bastard).

     

    - Tells Jon, “Most of my kin are bastards,” … “but you’re the first I’ve had to friend.” (Perhaps a hint from the author that Tyrion and Jon are kin).

     

    - Dreams he has two heads and kills Lannisters, while one head is laughing and one is crying (is the laughing head Targ and the crying head Lannister?).

     

    - Joanna was rumored to have had an affair with Aerys and was dismissed from court by Rhaella because Aerys was making Joanna a whore (suggesting that an affair occurred between Joanna and Aerys while Aerys and Rhaella were married and might have continued even after Joanna married Tywin).

     

    - Joanna visited KL in 272 AC for the Anniversary Tourney and Aerys made a humiliating remark about her breasts. Tywin attempted to resign the next day, and Aerys refused to accept the resignation (this timeline makes the birth of Tyrion in 273 AC consistent with Aerys as the biological father, and Tywin’s desire to resign could be more easily explained as a reaction to an insult regarding her breasts).

     

    - Aerys seems to lose respect for Tywin after the period of time during which Aerys would have impregnated Joanna with Tyrion.

     

    - The fifth book is titled A Dance with Dragons. However the book is not really focused much on the actual dragons or a battle between Targs or Targ descendants (as the Dance OF Dragons was). So why the title? Had GRRM simply decided that because he had picked the title years ago when he thought different material would be covered in that book he nevertheless kept the title? No. The better theory is that the title is a clue. Book 4 (A Feast for Crows) focused on most all of the characters other than Dany, Jon and Tyrion (who are essentially absent from that book) but A Dance with Dragons primarily focuses on these three characters. So the title of book 5 could be an additional clue pointing towards Tyrion being a dragon.

     

    Similarities to Bloodraven, a Great Bastard: 

    1. Distinct marking (mismatched eyes / huge red birthmark).
    2. Mutilation in defense of royals (cut nose / missing eye).
    3. Capable rulers but hated nonetheless.
    4. Kinslayers.

    Similarities amongst Tyrion, Jon (assuming R+L=J) and Dany:

    1. Mothers died as a result of their births.
    2. Fathers / presumed fathers (Aerys, Rhaegar, Tywin and Ned) killed.
    3. Lived in the shadow of older brothers.
    4. Outcasts.
    5. Unexpectedly rose to leadership roles.
    6. Lovers died arguably by their own hand (Shae / Ygritte / Drogo).
    7. Attempted assassinations.
    8. Third child of one of his or her parents (Joanna / Rhaegar / Rhaella) (of children who lived past infancy).
    9. Each killed someone in a position of power (Tywin / Janos / Kraznys).
    10. Each has been betrayed (Shae / Bowen / MMD).
    11. Each used the help of "raiding" warrior tribes in battle (Mountain Clan / Wildings / Dothraki)

     

     

    Frequently Asked Questions / Counter Arguments:

     

    1. Would the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion be undermined?

     

    This is entirely subjective. Some readers will consider the relationship ruined and others enhanced by finding out that Tywin rightfully suspected that Tyrion was really the son of Aerys. Assuming the author was planning such a development in the narrative, the author had sufficient leeway to write the relationship as he did, particularly given that any reveal of Tyrion’s birth father will occur only after Tywin is dead. GRRM might not consider a revelation after Tywin’s death to have any real effect on the import their interactions (or might even consider them more interesting in light of the revelation).

     

    2. If Aerys raped Joanna, wouldn’t she have taken moon tea instead of carrying the pregnancy to term?

         

    The evidence is somewhat ambiguous whether Joanna went to Aerys willingly, so the encounter might not have been rape. Even if Aerys raped Joanna, Joanna might have had her own reasons to carry the fetus to term (we have been told little about Joanna or her personality or values). Further, moon tea might not be 100% effective, so she might have taken moon tea, which failed. Other forms of terminating a pregnancy in Westeros might require more extreme measure that Joanna either might not have been able to obtain or might not have wanted to take the risks involved. In addition, Joanna might have thought it was most likely Tywin’s child and did not want to terminate the pregnancy under these circumstances. Bottom line, we don’t know enough about Joanna or the circumstances of the pregnancy to conclude that Joanna definitely would have terminated the pregnancy.

     

    3. Genna says to Jaime, “I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some Kevan in you, else you would not wear the cloak … but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.” Does this imply that Tyrion is Tywin's biological son?

     

    Not necessarily. Genna was talking personality and not necessarily inherited traits. Tyrion wanted Tywin’s approval and thus would try to be like Tywin. Tywin’s refusal to speak to his sister for one-half a year indicates that Tywin might have been upset because he was reminded that the son most like himself was the one that might not even really be Tywin’s biological son.

     

    4. Tommen’s hair also is pale blond, and he certainly is 100% Lannister.

     

    As he grew older, Tommen’s hair became golden blond, while Tyrion’s hair remained pale blond as an adult.

     

    5. Euron has mismatched eyes as well. Does this make him a secret Targ?

     

    No. There is no evidence to suggest that Euron was born with mismatched eyes. There are several reasons why a more likely explanation is that his condition is a hyphema rather than a genetic condition. [Credit to Corbon]

     

    - A hyphema is effectively a bruise on the eye. It usually comes from a blow to the eye causing bleeding. If it does not clear up the blood can thicken and turn black and damage to vision can be permanent. That fits everything we know about Euron.

     

    - If Euron sustained an eye injury causing a hyphema during his early career, that would have happened before Theon's birth and as far as Theon is concerned it would have 'always been like that'

     

    - His nickname of "crows eye'. His other eye is blue, and crows eyes change from a light blue/grey to a red/black colour as they mature, which suggests perhaps that Euron's eye changed colour around the time he reached maturity.

     

    - His sigil, which is a red eye with a black pupil. That suggests his patched eye might be dark red, or once have been red rather than black, as Theon recalls.

     

    - His eye patch. The patch suggests that the eye does not have good sight, or else he would lose much by covering it most of the time.

     

    - His lifestyle. Trauma injuries seem rather fitting amongst the Ironborn, especially the most adventurous of them.

     

    6. GRRM inserted these “clues” intentionally to serve as red herrings.

     

    A typical definition of red herring is “something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.” Usually, such a misleading or distracting clue is intended to prevent the actual solution to a mystery from being too obvious to the readers (classically, for example, by introducing multiple suspects in a murder to keep the identity of the real murderer from being discovered too easily). Further, a red herring often is explicitly stated as a potential theory by a character. If A+J=T is a red herring, the true “mystery” from which the theory serves as a distraction is unclear. Certainly, no other mystery that has been explicitly introduced in the series is obscured by the introduction of these clues regarding A+J=T. In addition, no character explicitly contemplates that Aerys might be the biological father to Tyrion. Thus, the clues for A+J=T do not satisfy any of these criteria for a typical red herring.

     

    7. Tywin would not give Tyrion a classic Lannister name if there were doubt as to paternity.

     

    Tyrion probably is named after Tyrion the Tormentor, a Lannister king who enjoyed making women bleed. Tywin might have found the reference irresistible given the nature of Joanna’s death (which likely involved quite a bit of blood after Tyrion’s birth).

     

    8. What about the SSM stating that Tyrion was named by his father, Dany by her mother and Jon by Ned; suggesting that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father?

     

    This analysis reads too much into an SSM. It is not possible to know for sure what was going through GRRM’s mind when answering the question. This sentence was not part of a carefully crafted piece of literature but a quick written answer to questions (notice the grammatical error, using “like” rather than “likely” shows that it was likely written quickly). R+L=J is a more widely circulated theory than A+J=T, so GRRM might have thought the need to refer to Ned by name for clarity sake, but did not think the same care was needed for the reference to Tywin. Bottom line, the SSM never explicitly states that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father, just references Tywin as Tyrion’s father, which Tywin was regardless of the identity of Tyrion’s birth father. Because GRRM is careful to refer to Ned as “Ned” rather than “Jon’s father” does not guarantee that GRRM would take the same care with Tywin, particularly if GRRM wanted the mystery of A+J=T to remain hidden to those readers who uncovered R+L=J.

     

     

    Miscellaneous Quotes and Possible Clues:

     

    The following list has been collected from various posts, put together primarily by Jo Maltese (with credit to other posters where designated):

     

    Tyrion share’s a trait with Aegon V (his great grand father?), Jaehaerys (his grandfather?). Indeed,Tyrion looks like a mixture of Aegon V and his elder brother Daeron... And he is quite a reader / scholar just like Rhaegar or Maester Aemon.

     

    aGoT - Tyrion III

     [Ser Allister:] "You have a bold tongue for someone who is less than half a man.

     

    aGoT - Tyrion VI

     [Bronn:] "You have a bold tongue, little man. One day someone is like to cut it out and make you eat it."

     

    aSoS - Tyrion VI

     [Tywin:] "You have a certain cunning, Tyrion, but the plain truth is you talk too much. That loose tongue of yours will be your undoing."

     

    aSoS - Tyrion VIII

     [Tyrion:] My big mouth will be the death of me, I swear it.

     

    aSoS - Tyrion IX

     [Tyrion:] Guard your tongue, you little fool, before it digs your grave.

     

    The Hedge Knight

     "Hold your tongue, you stupid boy [Egg]. Run away. They'll hurt you!"

     

    The Sworn Sword

     That tongue of his [Egg] will get him hurt one day, Dunk thought.

     

    The Mystery Knight

     [Egg] "I can talk if I want."

    "No," said Dunk. "You can't." That mouth of yours will get you killed someday.

    (...)

    Be quiet, Dunk wanted to roar. That loose tongue of yours will get us killed.

     

    tWoiAF

    The last years of Aegon's reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros. [remember Tyrion in Winterfell or at the Wall]

     

    tWoIaF

    A student of history and lover of books, Aegon V was oft heard to say that had he only had dragons, as the first Aegon had, he could have remade the realm anew, with peace and prosperity and justice for all. [premonitary?]

     

    tWoIaF - Jaehaerys II

    In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan's marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married. Jaehaerys was fifteen and Shaera fourteen at the time of their wedding.

    (…) Jaehaerys, the least martial of Aegon's three sons. (…) Unlike his brothers, Jaehaerys II Targaryen was thin and scrawny, and had battled various ailments all his life. Yet he did not lack for courage, or intelligence.

    (…)

    Though never strong, Jaehaerys II proved to be a capable kingrestoring order to the Seven Kingdoms and reconciling many of the great houses who had grown unhappy with the Iron Throne because of King Aegon V's attempted reforms.

     

     

    ********************************************************

     

    Choice of words and dreams similar for Tyrion and some Targaryens (credit: Suzanna Stormborn)

     

    Dany  DWD

    "Yes." Her hair was disheveled and her bedclothes all atangle, Dany realized. "Help me dress.  I'll have a cup of wine as well.  To clear my head." To drown my dream.

     

    Tyrion DwD

    "You are done with drink."

    "Wine helps me sleep," Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.

     

    Sam FFC

    "I see them in my dreams Sam.. I see the red star bleeding in the sky.  I still remember red.  I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath.  My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed, every one. " 

      

    Tyrion DwD

    Tyrion listened to Illyrio's snores, the crack of the leather straps, the slow clop clop of the team's ironshod hooves on the hard Valyrian road, but his heart was listening for the beat of leathern wings.

     

     

    Tyrion DwD

    A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog.  The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.

     

    ********************************************************

     

    Tyrion and Jon had similar dreams of dragons (credit: IceFire125)… And a “even a dwarf would look down over the world seated on a dragon’s back”:

     

    aGoT JON II

    "So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

    "You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

    “Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” 

    Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. 

    Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

     

    aSoS JON V

    “I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

     

    ********************************************************

     

    Possible hints for Tyrion being Dany’s brother 

     

    The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not." [think of a dwarf on a dragon’s back]

     (…)

    Your Grace," he conceded, "the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust.Well, here's your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen—three dragons, and three riders."

    "Yes," said Dany, "but my brothers are dead."

     (…)

    The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters. [following the so popular narrative consistency logic… Who else apart from Jon and Tyrion, seriously?]

     

    [Add Spoiler, TV Show]:”2 terrible children from 2 terrible fathers"...

     

    ********************************************************

     

    Does Varys think Tyrion’s father is dead ? [credit: Suzanna Stormborn]

     

    aCoK TYRION XI

    "Men are such faithless creatures," he [Varys] said by way of greeting.

    Tyrion sighed.  "Who's the traitor today?"

    The eunuch handed him a scroll.  "So much villainy, it sings a sad song for our age.  Did honor die with our fathers?"

    "My father is not dead yet.”

     

    ********************************************************

     

    Parallels between Tyrion and Aerys [credits: Suzanna Stormborn, Weirdo]

     

    A Storm of Swords - Tyrion I

    "A little bloody gratitude would make a nice start."

    Lord Tywin stared at him, unblinking. "Mummers and monkeys require applause. So did Aerys, for that matter. You did as you were commanded, and I am sure it was to the best of your ability. No one denies the part you played.”

    [Compare to:]

    All that ended abruptly the day his father returned from a sojourn in KL.  That night at supper Tyrion surprised his sire by walking the length of the high-table on his hands. Lord Tywin was not pleased. “The gods made you a dwarf. Must you be a fool as well? You were born a lion, not a monkey.”

     

    aSoS - TYRION VI

    "Yes, I recall now," Cersei said, "Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold."

    "And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father.” (…)

    "Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third."

    "The boy is thirteen. There is time yet." Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. "He requires a sharp lesson.”

    [Is Tywin upset because Tyrion is Aerys the Third?]

     

    aSoS TYRION IX

    “every witness will tell a worse tale, until I seem as bad as Maegor the Cruel and Aerys the Mad together, with a pinch of Aegon the Unworthy for spice.” 

     

    A Clash of Kings - Tyrion V

    “The substance flows through my veins, and lives in the heart of every pyromancer. We respect its power. But the common soldier, hmmmm, the crew of one of the queen's spitfires, say, in the unthinking frenzy of battle . . . any little mistake can bring catastrophe. That cannot be said too often. My father often told King Aerys as much, as his father told old King Jaehaerys."

    "They must have listened," Tyrion said. "If they had burned the city down, someone would have told me. So your counsel is that we had best be careful?” 

    [Grandfathers, fathers and sons…]

     

    A Storm of Swords - Tyrion V

    "All that," said Prince Oberyn, "and your father's fall as well. Lord Tywin had made himself greater than King Aerys, I heard one begging brother preach, but only a god is meant to stand above a king. You were his curse, a punishment sent by the gods to teach him that he was no better than any other man."

    "I try, but he refuses to learn." Tyrion gave a sigh. “

     

    ASOS 38 Jaime 

    “Did you know that my brother set the Blackwater Rush afire? Wildfire will burn on water. Aerys would have bathed in it if he’d dared. The Targaryens were all mad for fire.”

     

    ********************************************************

     

    Large Shadows (Dragons)

     

    Compare these :

     

    When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

     

    All in black, he [Jon] was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye.

     

    "So power is a mummer's trick?"

    "A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.Same quote you are referring to: the shadows that can kill clearly evokes dragons to me.

     

    "Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.

     

    ********************************************************

     

    Tyrion and Viserion parallels

     

    The birth of Viserion (the first egg to crack, Tyrion older than Jon and Dany): And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rockpale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

     

    The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightenedyet he was my brother stillHis dragon will do what he could not.

    This could apply to Tyrion were he Dany's brother... 

     

    The crossbow: The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion’s neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon’s blood, glowing gold and red. The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon’s teeth closed around his neck.

     

    Viserion the lazy, the wise (clever): Wise?” Dany sat cross-legged on a cushion, and Viserion spread his white-and-gold wings and flapped to her side. “We shall see how wise they are,” she said as she scratched the dragon’s scaly head behind the horns. (...) Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, and the scales that ran down his back from head to tail. “You’re lazy,” she told him, scratching under his jaw. (...)“You should be hunting with your brothers (...)"

     

    Viserion the lustful enslaved: Once, not long ago, he had ridden on her shoulder, his tail coiled round her arm. Once she had fed him morsels of charred meat from her own hand. He had been the first chained up. Daenerys had led him to the pit herself and shut him up inside with several oxen. Once he had gorged himself he grew drowsy. They had chained him whilst he slept. Remind someone's story?

     

    ********************************************************

     

    Tyrion one of the three heads of the Dragon

     

    The dragon has three headsThere are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.

     

    Three-headed Trios has the tower with the three turrets. The first head devours the dying [Dany?], and the reborn emerge from the third [Jon?]. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do [the riddle is the riddler: Tyrion?]

     

    Alleras in the prologue of aFfC:

    "The dragon has three heads," he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.

    "Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales."

    "No riddle" .

    [the truth is simple, not a riddle: the Targaryen House and their dragons are back, and there are 3 of them.]

     

    ********************************************************

     

    Tyrion is the Sphinx; half-lion, half-dragon

     

    Tyrion is neither a Lion nor a Dragon, he is all at once, he is the Sphinx, he is the Riddle : a monster, half-man (!), half-lion, with a serpent (dragon?) tail and (dragon?) wings. His face is even noseless, just like the famous Egypt Sphinx statue and his mismatched eyes  are those of a Chimera, another ancient monstrous creature.

     

    Tyrion's mismatched eyes may allude to the upcoming Dance between the new blacks, who will back Daenerys, who rides Drogon, and the new greens, who will back Aegon, who will ride Rhaegal. [credit: Lord Menilbonean]

     

    Dance with Dragons - Tyrion III

    "You may sleep on the deck or in the hold, as you prefer. Ysilla will find bedding for you."

    "How kind of her." Tyrion made a waddling bow, but at the cabin door, he turned back. "What if we should find the queen and discover that this talk of dragonswas just some sailor's drunken fancy? This wide world is full of such mad tales. Grumkins and snarks, ghosts and ghouls, mermaids, rock goblins, winged horses, winged pigs … winged lions.

     

    ********************************************************

     

    Tyrion’s obsession and physical link with dragons and Valyria [most credit to Suzanna Stormborn]

     

    GoT - TYRION II

    "I'm off to break my fast.  See that you return the books to the shelves.  Be gentle with the Valyrian scrolls, the parchment is very dry.  Ayrmidon's Engines of War is quite rare, and yours is the only complete copy I've ever seen."

     

    GoT - TYRION III

    The wine was a rare sweet amber from the Summer Isles that he had brought all the way north from Casterly Rock, and the book a rumination on the history and properties of dragons. (…)

    Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons.  When he had first come to King's Landing for his sister's wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen's throne room. (…)

    He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening.  He had not thought to find them beautiful.  Yet they were.  As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer int he light of his torch.  They liked the fire he sensed.......When he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast's empty eye sockets had watched him go.

     

    aDwD - TYRION IV

    (…) The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull.

     

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    The red comet heralding the coming of a dragon [LmL]

     

    Dany sees the red comet as heralding her coming. It surely does, as she is the mother of dragons. But she’s not the only one whose arrival coincides with it:

     

    aCoK - TYRION

    “I will leave you.” Varys rose. “I know how weary you must be. I only wished to welcome you, my lord, and tell you how very pleased I am by your arrival. We have dire need of you on the council. Have you seen the comet?

    “I’m short, not blind,” Tyrion said. Out on the kingsroad, it had seemed to cover half the sky, outshining the crescent moon. “In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger,” Varys said. “They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow.”  (ACOK, Tyrion)

     

    … Fire and Blood did follow at the Blackwater!

     

    ********************************************************

     

    aWoIaF App descriptions [Susanna Stormborn]

     

    on Joanna:

    "It's said that she ruled Lord Tywin as he ruled the realm as Hand, and he greatly mourned her when she died in childbirth while delivering Tyrion.  In later years,Tywin's troubled relationship with Tyrion leads him to tell himt hat he wished he could prove Tyrion was not his son, suggesting that he is uncertain of Tyrion's paternity.

     

    on Tyrion:

    ...He also dreams of riding a dragon since no one could ever look down on him if he were on dragonback.  Once, he even asks for a dragon as a name-day present, and weeps when he learns they no longer exist.

    ....Tywin claims that he intended to send him to the wall, but when he insists on calling Tysha a whore, Tyrion shoots him. Tywin dies, renouncing tyrion as his son.

    ...Becoming acquainted with Moqorro, Tyrion learns that the priest claims to have seen Tyrion in the flames, snarling amidst dragons.

     

     

    Additional Analysis:

     

    Links to Previous Threads:

 

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From previous thread:

 

UnmaskedLurker, on 25 Aug 2015 - 3:41 PM, said:

shk12344, on 25 Aug 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

It wasn't confirmed in TWolaF, it provided a timeline that makes it possible for A + J to happen. Possibility isn't confirmation. I would put that in the same level of probability as Arthur Dayne being the father of John Snow.

 

If it was important as people in this thread claims to be and given the overall importance of Tryion's character in the book, GRRM would have given it story arc similar to that of Jon Snow. But unlike Jon, Tyrion doesn't question his parentage, nor does anyone close to him. After five books, the "bastardness" of Tyrion plays zero role in his character development or his journey.

I agree with the points made by JM and LV. I had been lurking on this board for a while and came across the original A+J=T thread (I started v. 2 after the release of WOIAF, but I had nothing to do with v.1 and it actually was locked before I registered for the board). I found the theory convincing primarily for the following reasons: (1) the similarities among Jon, Dany and Tyrion were striking, especially the circumstances of their mothers' deaths; (2) by process of elimination, Tyrion seemed like the only viable candidate to be the third head of the dragon -- and it seemed that to be "of the dragon" a Targ parent is needed; and (3) GRRM seemed to drop little hints like pale blond hair color and fascination with dragons that pointed in the Targ direction. But one of the main issues brought up at that time to argue against the theory was that there was no evidence that Aerys and Joanna were in the right place at the right time -- Aerys being at KL and Joanna at CR. Now I never found that argument convincing, as we knew that people are not "nailed down to one spot" (as I think GRRM once noted regarding Ashara), but admittedly, we had no clues that confirmed that they could have been at the right place at the right time.

 

Then WOIAF came out and GRRM confirmed that Aerys and Joanna were both in KL in the year prior to Tyrion's birth. And GRRM basically confirmed that they had an affair years prior -- and Aerys makes a sexually suggestive comment to Joanna at the anniversary tourney -- which admittedly was insulting but showed that he was still thinking about her sexually. Another subtle "clue" is that we find out the Aerys's grandmother, Betha Blackwood, had black hair, potentially explaining the black streaks in Tyrion's hair. There are no other reported cases of a Lannister having black hair or black streaks.

 

Now you can go back to the OP of this thread and see all of the other clues in support of A+J=T. The rumors regarding Aerys and Joanna in DwD certainly is just one of a long list of potential clues. While each of these clues might have an "alternative" or "more natural" explanation than AJT, why are there so many of them? Why does GRRM bother to drop so many clues if they are just false leads? Coincidence -- is he not really intending to drop clues and we are seeing what we want to see? Is GRRM just dropping clues to be mischievous -- to "punk" a small number of people who will be taken in by these false clues? I have yet to come up with a good explanation for why GRRM would drop all of these clues if they were not really clues to A+J=T

 

As to your Arthur Dayne analogy -- I have two problems with it. One is that in that case, we have a much better candidate -- Rhaegar. Rhaegar as the father allows Jon to be a head of the dragon and possibly TPTWP. It makes Jon the combination of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar). And we have direct statements about Lyanna being Rhaegar's love. Could Rhaegar be a red herring for Dayne? I don't think so. We already have direct statement that Ned is Jon's father. Readers are not expected to go looking for alternative candidates. And the most direct evidence against this theory, Ned calls Dayne the best knight he knew (or something like that). Ned would not consider Dayne such a great knight if he broke his KG vows by having a child with Lyanna.

 

There is no evidence, however, that argues directly against AJT. Tywin as the father is not like Rhaegar as red herring for Dayne. Tywin is like Ned -- the stated father, but not really the father. No one in the story every questions whether Ned is really the father of Jon. Only the identity of Jon's mother is a known mystery.

 

As to story arc implication, I think the central story arc imperative is that GRRM needs the third head of the dragon. Apparently, as best that can be pieced together from comments by Rhaegar (in HotU vision) and Aemon, the Targs received a prophecy that the three heads of the dragon would be instrumental in winning the upcoming war for the dawn. What I take from this information is that GRRM has set up a situation in which 3 Targs will be the "war generals" in the upcoming battle against the Others. But only 1 character that is a realistic candidate to be a head of the dragon is a known Targ -- Dany. So the story needs 2 "hidden" Targs to be revealed as the other 2 heads. GRRM has set this situation up by periodically revealing that there are more Targs out there than we might have thought -- like Bloodraven and Aemon (not that their identity as Targs was ever a secret or unknown to themselves, but not initially known by the readers). He also sets up a situation where Tyrion is not accepted by his father -- apparently due to him leading to the death of Joanna, being a dwarf and a "whore monger" -- but those explanations for Tywin's antipathy really don't match Tywin's personality. While appearances matter to Tywin, he also seems to care about his family, and for some reason, he hates Tyrion.

 

Now many people -- maybe even most people -- think that this blind hatred is the crux of their relationship and AJT would "ruin" that relationship by giving Tywin an "excuse" for his views. I understand that view, but I disagree. I think this revelation explains Tywin's behavior and allows for Tyrion's character to advance. Tyrion is stuck in self-pity mode. He needs something to push his character forward. AJT revelation would do just that. So from a character development angle, this revelation works. Also consider that Jon thought he was a bastard and, if Rhaegar married Lyanna, will find out that he really is the "true-born" son of the former crown prince. Tyrion had the benefits of being treated as the "true born" son of a High Lord -- but may find out he really is the bastard of the mad King. I think that parallel works from a story arc point of view.

:agree: Three heads has the dragon: one true head in plain sight (Dany), one true head hidden (Jon)... And one bastard head, hidden (Tyrion)... The most dangerous one ?

 

EDIT: the question mark was missing

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Thx UL!!!

 

I think the OP gets better each time :)

Wait, what changed?

 

 

UL, amongst the similarities the OP lists, point 8. (each are third child)... Dany was not Rhaella's third child. Aegon, Jaehaerys and Daeron might have died young, but they lived. 

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^^^ Nothing changed, I meant each time I read it it get's better.

 

I am not sure about the 3rd child thing, how far does it go? do miscarriage's count? or a baby that only lived a week?  I think in this sort of medieval setting children who die in infancy are hard to list. know what i mean?

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SS--Thx, I try. In addition, if you think specific things should be added, PM me. I try to keep the list relatively lean, so I might not add anything more unless compelling, but I know you think a lot about this topic.

 

JM--Thx for carrying the discussion from the last version to this one. Whether the bastard head is truly the most dangerous remains to be seen, but he certainly seems to have a critical role to play. I hope shk returns so that we can carry on the debate. I am curious if shk has any reaction to my post that you re-printed.

 

RT--Not much changed, although I added the link to v.6 in the versions spoiler area. I had recently clarified the point regarding Tyrion's shadow making him tall as a king. It used to say he cast a shadow of a king (but that clarification happened mid-way through v.6). I will clarify the 3rd child reference. The "official" WOIAF family tree does not include those children. Commonly, in the middle ages, if children did not live past infancy, they were not really treated as "official" children. But for the sake of clarity, I will edit the OP to clarify that they are the third child (of the children who lived past infancy).

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^^^ Nothing changed, I meant each time I read it it get's better.

 

I am not sure about the 3rd child thing, how far does it go? do miscarriage's count? or a baby that only lived a week?  I think in this sort of medieval setting children who die in infancy are hard to list. know what i mean?

I understand what you mean. But at the moment, the OP is basically ignoring three children who lived for months. 

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RT--Not much changed, although I added the link to v.6 in the versions spoiler area. I had recently clarified the point regarding Tyrion's shadow making him tall as a king. It used to say he cast a shadow of a king (but that clarification happened mid-way through v.6). I will clarify the 3rd child reference. The "official" WOIAF family tree does not include those children. Commonly, in the middle ages, if children did not live past infancy, they were not really treated as "official" children. But for the sake of clarity, I will edit the OP to clarify that they are the third child (of the children who lived past infancy).

Fair enough.

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Wait, what changed?

 

 

UL, amongst the similarities the OP lists, point 8. (each are third child)... Dany was not Rhaella's third child. Aegon, Jaehaerys and Daeron might have died young, but they lived. 

Yes, I thought of this also. I see more a second son / second daughter parallel.

 

ETA:

 

SS--Thx, I try. In addition, if you think specific things should be added, PM me. I try to keep the list relatively lean, so I might not add anything more unless compelling, but I know you think a lot about this topic.

JM--Thx for carrying the discussion from the last version to this one. Whether the bastard head is truly the most dangerous remains to be seen, but he certainly seems to have a critical role to play. I hope shk returns so that we can carry on the debate. I am curious if shk has any reaction to my post that you re-printed.

(...)

You're welcome - and this was the very reason why I copied it here, I am curious too ( he did not sound like a troll). As for additions to the OP, I really loved the Varys 'our dead fathers' bit quoted by SS.

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You're welcome - and this was the very reason why I copied it here, I am curious too ( he did not sound like a troll). As for additions to the OP, I really loved the Varys 'our dead fathers' bit quoted by SS.

 

How would I work that in as it is not really part of a general point as the list tends to be? I know there are a number of "one-off" statements in support of AJT like that one, but I have never been sure how to work them in without making the list too cumbersome (consigliere actually did a great job consolidating and streamlining the list). Let me know if you have any thoughts on how it could work.

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How would I work that in as it is not really part of a general point as the list tends to be? I know there are a number of "one-off" statements in support of AJT like that one, but I have never been sure how to work them in without making the list too cumbersome (consigliere actually did a great job consolidating and streamlining the list). Let me know if you have any thoughts on how it could work.

Maybe just listing those in a spoiler window entitled "miscellaneous arguable textual support" for instance? The problem is that the more threads we have, the more difficult it becomes to find those little (significant or not) finds back when we want to refer to them in other threads.

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Maybe just listing those in a spoiler window entitled "miscellaneous arguable textual support" for instance? The problem is that the more threads we have, the more difficult it becomes to find those little (significant or not) finds back when we want to refer to them in other threads.

Great idea. If you and SS and other start listing those quotes, I will start adding them to a new spoiler box. I would like to have more than one or two to start, however, as the spoiler box would look strange if it is marked as additional supporting quotes but only has one or two quotes. I also will try to use search of ice and fire to find some good quotes.

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Great idea. If you and SS and other start listing those quotes, I will start adding them to a new spoiler box. I would like to have more than one or two to start, however, as the spoiler box would look strange if it is marked as additional supporting quotes but only has one or two quotes. I also will try to use search of ice and fire to find some good quotes.

Aye aye Sir!  :)  I'll PM you something consistent to start with, but it make take me a bit of time (a few days maybe).

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Aye aye Sir!  :)  I'll PM you something consistent to start with, but it make take me a bit of time (a few days maybe).

Perfect.  :cheers:

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Carried over from v.6, redeagl wrote:

 

"I guess we will see.Tyrion becomes a bit mad with Westeros after ASOS ."

 

I am not sure how that point addresses the issue of whether ATJ works for the story. Yes, Tyrion is mad at Westeros. Something needs to give him a reason to come back and fight for Westeros. Dany being his half-sister might be a pretty good reason.

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I saw in the last thread some talk about Tyrion becoming legitimized as a Targaryen and I just dont see it happening. I completely believe that Tyrion is a Targarayen Bastard but I dont see him giving up the name Lannister.

He might come to enjoy the favor that he gets with Daenerys and possibly with Jon as son of Aerys, but deep down Tyrion wants Casterly Rock and the love of his brother Jaime more than anything in this world. He might use his new Targaryen bloodline but his end goal will be the same.

 

Plus it goes back to GRRM saying that the third head doe not have to be a Targaryen, because Tyrion will stay a Lannister. Just because Daenerys knows he is her half brother does not mean that anyone except her (and Jon) have to actually recognize it.

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At this rate, we will have more AJT versions than RLJ in approximately 2,000 years...

 

Well if (or more accurately when) the show confirms RLJ next season the speculation could migrate to here (unless people refuse to watch the show and keep speculating anyway... or just speculate how it will be written). Although the show could confirm AJT next season too, and it would be fun if that happened in an earlier episode...

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Well if (or more accurately when) the show confirms RLJ next season the speculation could migrate to here (unless people refuse to watch the show and keep speculating anyway... or just speculate how it will be written). Although the show could confirm AJT next season too, and it would be fun if that happened in an earlier episode...

The rules here against discussion of the show as it relates to spoilers could make these threads tedious to navigate -- with discussions continually relegated to spoiler boxes. Given how they moved Tyrion's story along further than Jon's (as Jon's ended more or less the same while Tyrion's was brought forward sort of), I think AJT will be revealed next season. But to confirm that issue, we only have to wait about 9 months. Who knows how long we will have to wait for the next book -- and the last book even more so.

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