A+J=T v.7

[SerJarilLowther]

Tyrion might not be a classic Lannister, what he is, specifically, is Tywin's son despise everything- of course culture is over nature so he would stay Tywin son anyway but it would still drastically diminished his character and the whole Lannister thing

[Jô Maltese]

Tyrion might not be a classic Lannister, what he is, specifically, is Tywin's son despise everything- of course culture is over nature so he would stay Tywin son anyway but it would still drastically diminished his character and the whole Lannister thing

This is opinion, not evidence. Tyrion's similar strength of character to Tywin's could be due to nurture instead of nature, just like Ned and Jon Arryn, or Jon and Ned.

Actually the very fact that Tyrion, like Tywin, is man out a thousand (according to Gemma), almost makes it less likely that he is Tywin's son IMO. In terms of probabilities, it would be a bit like both father and son winning the lottery with a ticket bought in the same shop.

[Wouter]

If I was going to guess who betrays her for gold it would a certain Sell Sword.

Agreed. Tyrion betraying Dany for gold makes no sense; if he wants Casterly Rock, his best shot at it is Dany granting it to him (which would seem to be a logical move for her if he joins her, especially if he would ride a dragon). And I don't know what's up with Tyrion's promises of gold to Brown Ben and co, but I doubt he has the intention of honoring this agreement (quite possibly he expects Dany to eliminate them for having switched sides a couple of times too many).

 

Brown Ben and co are far more likely betrayers for gold. If Tyrion is one of the betrayals, for love (of Jaime) would be the more reasonable conclusion.

[Stonehearted Snake]

Hi again AJT folks! :) I just wanted to stop by because I was curious if there had been more traffic since the latest Radio Westeros. I thought they did a great job at breaking down the issues that people seem to have with the theory.

To me, RLJ and AJT and the lives of Jon and Tyrion are parallels in many way. So I think the thing that always strikes me is that the same people who believe RLJ but also can go on and on about how Jon is such a Stark can't seem to understand that Tyrion is still such a Lannister even if he is biologically a Targ. Jon is Ned's "son," arguably more than any other of Ned's actual biological children. We don't know enough of Lyanna to say that her Stark-ness is what causes Jon to be so much like Ned (like, from what we know Brandon doesn't seem exactly like Ned either). Jon is the way he is because he was raised by Ned. The same holds true for Tyrion. He is who he is, which is Tywin's "son" because he was raised by Tywin. But that being said, even if you want to argue that Jon's Stark-ness comes from Lyanna, well, why can't Tyrion's Lannister-ness come from Joanna, who was also a Lannister?

I really liked the way Radio Westeros framed it - that they like to think of Tyrion as a Lannister with a little Targaryen thrown in. I think that is very true. Honestly, if you compare Jon and Tyrion, Tyrion is on the surface more Targ-like than Jon, in that he is obsessed with dragons and he looks more Targ-y (Jon looks straight-up Stark as far as we are told).

[Mithras]

Hi again AJT folks! :) I just wanted to stop by because I was curious if there had been more traffic since the latest Radio Westeros. I thought they did a great job at breaking down the issues that people seem to have with the theory.

To me, RLJ and AJT and the lives of Jon and Tyrion are parallels in many way. So I think the thing that always strikes me is that the same people who believe RLJ but also can go on and on about how Jon is such a Stark can't seem to understand that Tyrion is still such a Lannister even if he is biologically a Targ. Jon is Ned's "son," arguably more than any other of Ned's actual biological children. We don't know enough of Lyanna to say that her Stark-ness is what causes Jon to be so much like Ned (like, from what we know Brandon doesn't seem exactly like Ned either). Jon is the way he is because he was raised by Ned. The same holds true for Tyrion. He is who he is, which is Tywin's "son" because he was raised by Tywin. But that being said, even if you want to argue that Jon's Stark-ness comes from Lyanna, well, why can't Tyrion's Lannister-ness come from Joanna, who was also a Lannister?

I really liked the way Radio Westeros framed it - that they like to think of Tyrion as a Lannister with a little Targaryen thrown in. I think that is very true. Honestly, if you compare Jon and Tyrion, Tyrion is on the surface more Targ-like than Jon, in that he is obsessed with dragons and he looks more Targ-y (Jon looks straight-up Stark as far as we are told).

 

Then, what is the point of making Tyrion a Targ? What is the point of throwing some Targ in there?

 

I know the answer you will give very well:

 

Because he will ride a dragon.

 

And so we come to the circular logic. This is enough to show that AJT is nothing like RLJ and it is not by itself a theory.

[Jô Maltese]

 

Then, what is the point of making Tyrion a Targ? What is the point of throwing some Targ in there?

 

I know the answer you will give very well:

 

Because he will ride a dragon.

 

And so we come to the circular logic. This is enough to show that AJT is nothing like RLJ and it is not by itself a theory.

 

No riding a dragon or circular logic in the dialogue below though. Just a plain hint at Tyrion being Aery's son:

aCoK - Tyrion V

 

“The substance flows through my veins, and lives in the heart of every pyromancer. We respect its power. But the common soldier, hmmmm, the crew of one of the queen's spitfires, say, in the unthinking frenzy of battle . . . any little mistake can bring catastrophe. That cannot be said too often. My father often told King Aerys as much, as his father told old King Jaehaerys."
"They must have listened," Tyrion said. "If they had burned the city down, someone would have told me. So your counsel is that we had best be careful?”  

[a Spider from Mars]

One thing that really got my attention was how Tyrion is immune to Grey scale. He drank gallons of infected water and might as well asked for the stone man's number. Aren't Targaryens Immune to diseases? Not to mention Valyria and the scales being a possible reference.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

One thing that really got my attention was how Tyrion is immune to Grey scale. He drank gallons of infected water and might as well asked for the stone man's number. Aren't Targaryens Immune to diseases? Not to mention Valyria and the scales being a possible reference.

Considering there have been plenty of Targaryens to die of disease, including greyscale, no, Targaryens are not immune to disease

[Wouter]

One thing that really got my attention was how Tyrion is immune to Grey scale. He drank gallons of infected water and might as well asked for the stone man's number. Aren't Targaryens Immune to diseases? Not to mention Valyria and the scales being a possible reference.

What struck me about that scene is that the infamous turtle is supposed to "herald the birth of kings". While this could be a reference to Aegon, in the long run it may apply to Tyrion rather than Aegon (who will probably be king for a short while).

[Jô Maltese]

What struck me about that scene is that the infamous turtle is supposed to "herald the birth of kings". While this could be a reference to Aegon, in the long run it may apply to Tyrion rather than Aegon (who will probably be king for a short while).

Yes, everything that happened at the Bridge of Dreams could point at Tyrion instead of Aegon. This is where he reveals his identity and he is the one who is almost killed by the Shrouded Lord after all, not Aegon.

[Jô Maltese]

aCoK - Sansa I

 

Doubtless that was what they told Joffrey; Sansa was not so sure. "I've heard servants calling it the Dragon's Tail."

"King Joffrey sits where Aegon the Dragon once sat, in the castle built by his son," Ser Arys said. "He is the dragon's heir—and crimson is the color of House Lannister, another sign. This comet is sent to herald Joffrey's ascent to the throne, I have no doubt. It means that he will triumph over his enemies."

 

Is it true? she wondered. Would the gods be so cruel? Her mother was one of Joffrey's enemies now, her brother Robb another. Her father had died by the king's command. Must Robb and her lady mother die next? The comet was red, but Joffrey was Baratheon as much as Lannister, and their sigil was a black stag on a golden field. Shouldn't the gods have sent Joff a golden comet?

If the comet does indeed herald the comet of a king and displays his colours, then Tyrion fits the bill (A+J or not). 

 

aCoK - Tyrion I

 

"I'm short, not blind," Tyrion said. Out on the kingsroad, it had seemed to cover half the sky, outshining the crescent moon.

"In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger," Varys said. "They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow."

Tyrion is actually the only character who arrives at King's Landing during the Red Comet passage. And Tyrion was the first one unleash Fire and Blood at the Blackwater after all.

 

 

aDwD - Tyrion IV

 

A turtle," said Tyrion. "A turtle bigger than this boat."

"It was him," cried Yandry. "The Old Man of the River."

 

And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings

 

 

tWoIaF - The Long Night

 

Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

Does this imply that the Song of Ice and Fire must be sung by more than one person? Siblings? Jon. Plus Dany for sure. Plus Aegon or Tyrion then?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Hi again AJT folks! :) I just wanted to stop by because I was curious if there had been more traffic since the latest Radio Westeros. I thought they did a great job at breaking down the issues that people seem to have with the theory.

To me, RLJ and AJT and the lives of Jon and Tyrion are parallels in many way. So I think the thing that always strikes me is that the same people who believe RLJ but also can go on and on about how Jon is such a Stark can't seem to understand that Tyrion is still such a Lannister even if he is biologically a Targ. Jon is Ned's "son," arguably more than any other of Ned's actual biological children. We don't know enough of Lyanna to say that her Stark-ness is what causes Jon to be so much like Ned (like, from what we know Brandon doesn't seem exactly like Ned either). Jon is the way he is because he was raised by Ned. The same holds true for Tyrion. He is who he is, which is Tywin's "son" because he was raised by Tywin. But that being said, even if you want to argue that Jon's Stark-ness comes from Lyanna, well, why can't Tyrion's Lannister-ness come from Joanna, who was also a Lannister?

I really liked the way Radio Westeros framed it - that they like to think of Tyrion as a Lannister with a little Targaryen thrown in. I think that is very true. Honestly, if you compare Jon and Tyrion, Tyrion is on the surface more Targ-like than Jon, in that he is obsessed with dragons and he looks more Targ-y (Jon looks straight-up Stark as far as we are told).

I just listened to the latest Radio Westeros (on your recommendation). Anyone who wants a quick link -- it can be found here (episode 17) -- they last segment is when they discuss A+J=T (the rest is general analysis of Tywin and the Lannisters).

 

While they did not really add any new analysis (and admitted they were not going to do so), I am pleasantly surprised at how much they seemed to agree with the bulk of the analysis on this thread, and I was especially pleased at their analysis of how the objectors' claim that the theory could be a red herring does not really work. They basically parroted the reasoning that I (and others) have put forth on this thread that it really does not fit as a red herring because it does not really serve to distract from something else. They also smartly dismissed any notion that the Tywin/Tyrion relationship would be negatively impacted by such a development (as Tywin will always be Tyrion's father even if not his blood father).

 

Maybe as more people listen to the analysis laid out clearly and dispassionately by Radio Westeros, the theory will have new adherents. 

[Stonehearted Snake]

 
Then, what is the point of making Tyrion a Targ? What is the point of throwing some Targ in there?
 
I know the answer you will give very well:
 
Because he will ride a dragon.
 
And so we come to the circular logic. This is enough to show that AJT is nothing like RLJ and it is not by itself a theory.

Actually Mithras if you actually read my post you would had known that would NOT have been my answer. I didn't say a single thing about BOTD. What I did talk about was the thematic significance of arguably the two (of three) main characters leading parallel lives, at times mirroring each other in exact reverse. I find this incredibly compelling and adds a new layer of depth to BOTH characters' arcs and development. I do not know how AJT will be revealed (and we don't really know about RLJ either - people assume HR but we don't know that) but I hope that it is so we can see how Jon and Tyrion react to this on their own and in relation to each other.

So - nothing about BOTD but all about literary themes and character development. :)

[Stonehearted Snake]

I just listened to the latest Radio Westeros (on your recommendation). Anyone who wants a quick link -- it can be found here (episode 17) -- they last segment is when they discuss A+J=T (the rest is general analysis of Tywin and the Lannisters).
 
While they did not really add any new analysis (and admitted they were not going to do so), I am pleasantly surprised at how much they seemed to agree with the bulk of the analysis on this thread, and I was especially pleased at their analysis of how the objectors' claim that the theory could be a red herring does not really work. They basically parroted the reasoning that I (and others) have put forth on this thread that it really does not fit as a red herring because it does not really serve to distract from something else. They also smartly dismissed any notion that the Tywin/Tyrion relationship would be negatively impacted by such a development (as Tywin will always be Tyrion's father even if not his blood father).
 
Maybe as more people listen to the analysis laid out clearly and dispassionately by Radio Westeros, the theory will have new adherents. 

Yes! I thought that too. I was a little nervous they were going to (try to) debunk it but their reasoning was basically straight from this thread, which they credited. I am glad they focused on the arguments against it rather than on the details for it since that can all be found here.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^ they mentioned us?!?!?!?

 

That's cool :)  Ill have to listen to it.  Clearly we are right lol.

 

It all just fits too well and makes too much sense.......

 

Found some more quotes in the Battle of the Blackwater;

 

Motionless as a Gargoyle, Tyrion Lannister hunched on one knee atop a merlon. 

 

again with the gargoyles....

 

        The low clouds caught the color of the burning river and roofed the sky in shades of shifting green, eerily beautiful.  A terrible beauty.  Like Dragonfire.  Tyrion wondered if Aegon the Conqueror had felt like this as he flew above his Field of Fire.

       The furnace wind lifted his crimson cloak and beat at his bare face, yet he could not turn away.  He was dimly aware of the gold cloaks cheering from the hoardings.  He had no voice to join them.  it was a half victory.  It will not be enough.

       He saw another of the hulks he'd stuffed full of King Aerys's fickle fruits engulfed by the hungry flames.  A fountain of burning jade rose from the river, the blast so bright he had to shield his eyes.

 

Everything is dragons or Targaryens with this guy.  One or the other or both are in his thoughts on practically every page in his POV chapters.  It's non-stop.  Also I like that furnace wind comment, reminded me of this;

 

Dany X DwD

Drogon roared.  The sound filled the pit.  A furnace wind engulfed her.  The dragon's long scaled neck stretched toward her.  When his mouth opened, she could see bits of broken bone and charred flesh between his black teeth. his eyes are molten. I am looking into hell, but i dare not look away.  She had never been so certain of anything. If I run from him, he will burn and devour me.

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

 

Then, what is the point of making Tyrion a Targ? What is the point of throwing some Targ in there?

 

I know the answer you will give very well:

 

Because he will ride a dragon.

 

And so we come to the circular logic. This is enough to show that AJT is nothing like RLJ and it is not by itself a theory.

It is not so he will ride a dragon, it is so he will be the third head of the Dragon (House Targaryen), whether that means he will ride a Dragon is up in the air.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^ Yes, very true, regardless of Aerys being his father, he will still have to bond with/tame and ride a dragon himself. Meaning he will have to have courage, cunning and BOTD to do it.

[Mithras]

Actually Mithras if you actually read my post you would had known that would NOT have been my answer. I didn't say a single thing about BOTD. What I did talk about was the thematic significance of arguably the two (of three) main characters leading parallel lives, at times mirroring each other in exact reverse. I find this incredibly compelling and adds a new layer of depth to BOTH characters' arcs and development. I do not know how AJT will be revealed (and we don't really know about RLJ either - people assume HR but we don't know that) but I hope that it is so we can see how Jon and Tyrion react to this on their own and in relation to each other.

So - nothing about BOTD but all about literary themes and character development. :)

 

Everyone in this thread are waiting for Tyrion to ride Viserion. The moment he does that, people will take that as a confirmation of Tyrion having Targaryen blood through Aerys.

[Jô Maltese]

 

Everyone in this thread are waiting for Tyrion to ride Viserion. The moment he does that, people will take that as a confirmation of Tyrion having Targaryen blood through Aerys.

In Westeros they will...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Good gods GET OVER IT!!!