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Heresy 177


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Welcome to Heresy 177, this week’s edition of the sometimes quirky thread where we take an in-depth, and often a sideways look at what GRRM has referred to as the real conflict, not the Game of Thrones but the threat in the North, in the magical Otherlands above the Wall.

 

Heresy is not of itself a theory and heretics do not as a group take or defend a particular stance on issues, or even agree much with each other very often. There is occasional consensus but no “Heretic view”. Instead Heresy is a free-flowing and above all a very friendly series of open discussions and arguments about the Song of Ice and Ice and Fire.

 

If new to the thread, don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed here over the years. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask. You will neither be patronized nor directed to follow links, but will be engaged directly. Just be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

 

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects diversity and open-ness. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion.

 

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic. The Centennial Project essays in the run-up to Heresy 100 are particularly recommended, but be  warned however that Heresy is constantly moving and evolving and that what was once regarded as important may now be exploded. Live in the moment and the current thread.

 

Beyond that, read on…

 

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And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993  letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

 

October 1993

 

Dear Ralph,

 

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

 

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

 

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

 

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

 

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

 

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

 

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

 

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

 

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

 

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

 

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

 

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

 

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

 

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

 

[7 Lines Redacted]

 

But that's the second book...

 

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

 

All best,

George R.R. Martin

 

 

 

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

 

 

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

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Has anyone ever considered that we don't know what happened to Rob's head... & on Rob's head was Rob's face... 

 

& Jon had a dream where he cuts off Rob's head @ Winterfell with Longclaw...

 

Could Roose have Rob's face? Could he be planning to use it? Is this what he read about in the Harrenhal book?

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if Roose was somehow related to the stark line, I'd be far more inclined to believe he was working with the NK/others.

At best, I'm skeptical. He can just be a bad guy without supernatural connections...

Something I have been pondering since the TWOIF dropped is, who was the first necromancer to mess with things, and is he still alive?

I'm inclined to think there's ancient vampire out there somewhere. It's the only mythical creature in the traditional undead hierarchy GRRM has left out. It would explain a lot about the others...

A vampiric race perhaps cursed because of the blood betrayal and the worship of the bloodstone?
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Whilst the Nights King might seem a candidate GRRM has made it pretty clear that the original is long gone. Similarly there has been speculation about Roose Bolton, but he has blood drawn out of him by leeches. There are some who argue that the walkers are vampiric and that's why they require Craster's sons, but I'm of the view that its a little more complicated. They themselves are "demons made of ice and snow and cold"* held together by magic, so your traditional blood-sucking vampire type doesn't quite fit.

 

Rather I think the vampires may be the trees and what's in them. Its the trees which receive the sacrifice of blood and part of the current difficulty may be attributable to a lack of it, ie: there are fewer trees to receive the blood and fewer of the faithful to provide it.

 

 

 

 

*(c) Stannis Baratheon

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Yeah and he's by far too obvious as the original candidate(even though I don't hate it) for me this 'first' seems like the BSE(or whomever was controlling the BSE...)

Could he be the apprentice of said being or, took over(perhaps against his will) from him after he slew him as the LH/AA etc?

Or HAD to take over from him because of yet to be determined factors? (The andal invasion/NK fiasco?)

So, by that line of reasoning the weirnet is blood powered? The trees tasting the blood, like Maggie the frog would tell the greenseer(s) a lot. But what use is that knowledge of the lamb is dead? ***what I'm trying to say there is, why do they need the sacrifice unless they also have, as well as being part of the net, another purpose?
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The blood, as elsewhere, is presumably needed for the working of magic. remember that the Hammer of the waters was attributed to the dark magics of the children and there's a reference in the world book to that being accomplished through massive sacrifices not only of human captives but children as well. I think the short answer is that magic appears to feed on blood.

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I'm inclined to agree, it's in the blood seems to be the answer to a lot of the questions.

Massive human sacrifice, or a very specific one...for the hammer, the blood betrayal and the flooding of the neck, I can get behind.

If the power for a flaming sword comes from Berics blood, I see no reason it cannot have come from someone's blood before. Or again.

I am of the mind drinking of blood went into the ritual that made this probable NK the TV show has given us. Bran ate something as well, but I don't ascribe to jojen paste.

If the weirnet drinks blood, perhaps the seeds give 'it' back out, in a manner of speaking.
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I'm inclined to agree, it's in the blood seems to be the answer to a lot of the questions.

Massive human sacrifice, or a very specific one...for the hammer, the blood betrayal and the flooding of the neck, I can get behind.

If the power for a flaming sword comes from Berics blood, I see no reason it cannot have come from someone's blood before. Or again.

I am of the mind drinking of blood went into the ritual that made this probable NK the TV show has given us. Bran ate something as well, but I don't ascribe to jojen paste.

If the weirnet drinks blood, perhaps the seeds give 'it' back out, in a manner of speaking.

 

 

Its certainly possible, just as in traditional vampire lore the bite passes on whatever it is that turns victims into vampires. Overall though I think that we are seeing the traditional tropes here but re-imagined by GRRM in strange and interesting ways.

 

The Starks and other wargs are werewolves by any other name, but rather than physically changing shape either at will or by moonlight they and wolves switch identities.

 

Vampires also exist, but not necessarily as individuals who emerge by night to get up close and personal, but rather in the form of magic, whether as the old gods in the weirwoods or anywhere else, which feeds upon blood and will do things for those who feed it, whether bringing down the Hammer of the waters or raising the Wall.

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Hey guys! Lurker on the forums and brand new to the Heresy pages but it's all really great stuff. 

On the current topic of blood as a catalyst or necessary part of magic, how do you think this relates to the Wall or even some of the other "hinges of the world"? The building of the wall obviously took magic but whose blood would have been sacrificed to build it? And it seems like it would take an extraordinary large amount of magic to build such a colossal structure. I know the Night's King was said to be the 13th LC, but was the wall completed by the time he was in charge? And could his alleged sacrifices be an integral part of the building and completion of the wall? Sorry if this has been discussed before!

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Hey guys! Lurker on the forums and brand new to the Heresy pages but it's all really great stuff. 

On the current topic of blood as a catalyst or necessary part of magic, how do you think this relates to the Wall or even some of the other "hinges of the world"? The building of the wall obviously took magic but whose blood would have been sacrificed to build it? And it seems like it would take an extraordinary large amount of magic to build such a colossal structure. I know the Night's King was said to be the 13th LC, but was the wall completed by the time he was in charge? And could his alleged sacrifices be an integral part of the building and completion of the wall? Sorry if this has been discussed before!

Yes, blood sacrifice was part of building the Wall, the NW decided to forget the fact a long time ago. The wildlings still remember:

"It's made of ice," Jon pointed out.
"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood."
 
Either the Long Night was the mechanism used to collect all that blood or the Last Hero and his successor sacrificed a very large number of people after peace was achieved.
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Who do you think the Night's Watch( or whoever built it) was sacrificing then? And how would they get that many sacrifices? Could that have a connection to Craster in anyway as we see him sacrificing sons to what seems to be the Others? And we hear that long ago, that joining the Watch was considered an Honor by those of High birth that were second or third sons and had little chance to inherit land. We still see this with Royce and even Jon Snow. But before the conquest could "king's blood" have applied to all those who were born of royalty in their respective parts of the world? And if so could this relate to the "Honor" of joining the watch because you would be used as a sacrifice maybe, as your blood was considered worth more than that of the small folk or a criminal? Or is it that just because the threat to the North was actually a threat way back then? And could this not even connect to Craster and maybe King's blood as he is the "king of his castle" to a degree? 

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Who do you think the Night's Watch( or whoever built it) was sacrificing then? And how would they get that many sacrifices? Could that have a connection to Craster in anyway as we see him sacrificing sons to what seems to be the Others? And we hear that long ago, that joining the Watch was considered an Honor by those of High birth that were second or third sons and had little chance to inherit land. We still see this with Royce and even Jon Snow. But before the conquest could "king's blood" have applied to all those who were born of royalty in their respective parts of the world? And if so could this relate to the "Honor" of joining the watch because you would be used as a sacrifice maybe, as your blood was considered worth more than that of the small folk or a criminal? Or is it that just because the threat to the North was actually a threat way back then? And could this not even connect to Craster and maybe King's blood as he is the "king of his castle" to a degree? 

That is a hard mystery to untangle.

We know that Northmen kept doing human sacrifices well after the Long Night. If the blood was not accumulated during the Long Night, then I guess captives from the Stark wars were sacrificed. The wildlings hate for the NW probably started there.

At some point a Stark and Joramum made alliances, defeated the Stark-at-the-Wall and changed the previous purpose of the NW.

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Mel's shadow babies resembled Stannis ( davos and Cat both noticed) and the White Walkers we see all look alike so i assume they're all coming from the same "source".   For me they seem very similar just from opposite ends of the spectrum (ice and fire), i could even imagine the White walkers taking a much less solid form (mist)  like the shadow babies if say it wasnt so cold when they came.

 

But what's odd is these shadow magic babies don't come from blood at all but from Stannis' "seed" which has me thinking maybe the W.Walkers come from a similar method.  Which could mean the 13th lord commander was making these White walkers ( ice babies).  And then you have to ask who was the icy woman the 13th commander ran into maybe its the equivalent to Val if she is some icy version of Melisandre

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That is a hard mystery to untangle.

We know that Northmen kept doing human sacrifices well after the Long Night. If the blood was not accumulated during the Long Night, then I guess captives from the Stark wars were sacrificed. The wildlings hate for the NW probably started there.

At some point a Stark and Joramum made alliances, defeated the Stark-at-the-Wall and changed the previous purpose of the NW.

 

Indeed, one of the mysteries is who built the Wall and why.

 

Yes, traditionally it was Bob the Builder but he had to turn to the three-fingered tree-huggers - have blood will work. What's also overlooked is the matter of the castles or rather what castles? Yes there are castles now, some still used others ruined but the Nightfort is twice as old as Castle Black and basically what it comes down to is that with the exception of whatever buildings serviced the portal we know as the Black Gate, for the first half of the Wall's existence there were no castles and no gates. In other words the Black Gate was the only connection between the realms of men and the otherlands beyond. The Nights Watch, if it existed, may have only comprised 13 men.

 

Essentially what's being suggested is that the business of the Nights King being the 13th Lord Commander is wrong and simply rhymes with his ruling for 13 years; and that the castles and the men to occupy them came after the Starks of Winterfell and the Nightfort fell out.

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