Heresy 177

[MaesterSam]

 

While I like the thought about Wall being protection for the North, not from the North, there are few issues here. E.g., why use magic to build the wall? South will come with steel and fist, it's enough to build strong and high wall.

I like this idea too- the Wall being protection against the South. Why? Well, just look at Mel. Maybe, long ago, the southerners came with steel and fist and fire. The war seemed lost, until a greenseer triggered the Long Night, also creating the white walkers to amass human sacrifices, providing the power (drawn from blood/life) to build the Wall. 

 

There are also all sorts of evil magical things in Essos, and the continents used to be connected. There definitely could have been things in the south that people needed protection from. 

[TheMiddleHero]

Valar Dohaeris.

 

Has it ever been discussed whether the Free Folk is a type of opposition to not just bowing down to lords and kings, but also this age old expression?

[Black Crow]

Valar Dohaeris.

 

Has it ever been discussed whether the Free Folk is a type of opposition to not just bowing down to lords and kings, but also this age old expression?

 

Not specifically, but once again there's the age-old question of exactly who the Free Folk are, and here I think we need look no further than who they say they are and that while its cold and life is hard up there, they live up there because they choose to live free. There are Wildling raiders and occasionally Wildling armies coming south, but those who choose to come south peaceable like don't seem to have problems. Right at the very beginning Ser Denys Mallester is reporting that more of them than usual are slipping past the Shadow Tower, yet he's not pursuing them. The only fighting is with armed bands.

 

Even if the Wall was raised by great magic overnight its hard to sustain an argument that they were trapped on the wrong side when the Wall went up. Even if that were so there would, surely be more petty kingdoms than that of the Thenns, but on the contrary they take pride in kneeling to none.

[Black Crow]

I like this idea too- the Wall being protection against the South. Why? Well, just look at Mel. Maybe, long ago, the southerners came with steel and fist and fire. The war seemed lost, until a greenseer triggered the Long Night, also creating the white walkers to amass human sacrifices, providing the power (drawn from blood/life) to build the Wall. 

 

There are also all sorts of evil magical things in Essos, and the continents used to be connected. There definitely could have been things in the south that people needed protection from. 

 

Or simpler still the Long Night was a side effect of magically raising such a huge barrier. The walkers and the wights destroyed the human kingdoms north of what's now the Wall and perhaps beyond it as far as the Neck. The Last Hero seeks out the children to cry pax. They agree to call off the dogs because the Wall is built and then show it to him - that's it; that's as far as the realms of men may go and no further, otherwise the wild hunt will be unleashed again.

[Lady Dyanna]

I have thought about this process before and my opinion is that perhaps we need to consider the opposite properties of Ice and Fire. Tell me what you think of the following thoughts...
 
Shadowbabies are created by drawing life from a living "victim"... Stannis was a victim even though he seemed to go through the process willingly. I believe he was seduced into doing so. Melisandre said the brighter the light the darker the shadow. Does Melisandre actually mean the light from a fire or the sun, or does she mean the living life force of someone yet alive? Melisandre said of Stannis afterwards that "his light grows dim". Are we to understand then that any future shadows taken from Stannis would be weaker?
 
White walkers on the other hand avoid the light so the darker the night the brighter the ???.  I want to insert "reflection" in the previous sentence, because technically they have no color. They're made of ice and ice would reflect and sparkle like a diamond from any minuscule amount of light that happened to be out on any given night. The light from the moon and the stars, or their reflection off the snow is the source of light that creates the camouflaged, dappled appearance that they are described as having. 
 
I believe white walkers are created by sacrificing a life and drawing the spirit out of the bones. It has to be done simultaneously at the time of death, otherwise the dead would simply become wights. With the spirit extracted, the remains cannot also become a wight as wights still have their spirit trapped in the bones. That is why they have some memory from when they were yet alive.
 
Stannis was an adult victim of fire magic, so perhaps Craster's son's were infant sacrifices to ice magic.

I really like this idea. Something about it is making my mind happy. It fits in well with my own personal crackpot that all of this stuff originated from man in general, and possibly the Starks in specific twisting magic to meet their own ends in order to gain power and immortality.

ETA: Another cracked thought just came to mind. Could it be possible that something like this was tried with Lyanna? All of the circumstances that we hear surrounding her death are shrouded in such mystery. Then we have Ned who can remember none of it. It just seems like a set up for something crazy to have occurred. :dunno:

[Lady Dyanna]

I just watched "7 Days in Hell" starring Andy Samberg and Kit Harrington as rival tennis players. This is a few leaps too many, but I can't resist.
There is a point during the mockumentary when Harrington's character is asked if he is a better tennis player than samberg's character; to which he responds non-chalantly, "...yeah."
The narrator (Jon Hamm) proceeds to say, while the image on the screen is a freeze-frame of Kit Harrington (game of thrones : Jon Snow), "and with a seemingly innocuous statement that should have gone unnoticed, Charles (Harrington) awoke a sleeping dragon."

:lmao: I wish we had a like button! :)

[Lady Dyanna]

While I like the thought about Wall being protection for the North, not from the North, there are few issues here. E.g., why use magic to build the wall? South will come with steel and fist, it's enough to build strong and high wall.

But is it really enough if the South also comes with Dragons? :dunno:

[Tucu]

 

Not specifically, but once again there's the age-old question of exactly who the Free Folk are, and here I think we need look no further than who they say they are and that while its cold and life is hard up there, they live up there because they choose to live free. There are Wildling raiders and occasionally Wildling armies coming south, but those who choose to come south peaceable like don't seem to have problems. Right at the very beginning Ser Denys Mallester is reporting that more of them than usual are slipping past the Shadow Tower, yet he's not pursuing them. The only fighting is with armed bands.

 

Even if the Wall was raised by great magic overnight its hard to sustain an argument that they were trapped on the wrong side when the Wall went up. Even if that were so there would, surely be more petty kingdoms than that of the Thenns, but on the contrary they take pride in kneeling to none.

 

 

Or simpler still the Long Night was a side effect of magically raising such a huge barrier. The walkers and the wights destroyed the human kingdoms north of what's now the Wall and perhaps beyond it as far as the Neck. The Last Hero seeks out the children to cry pax. They agree to call off the dogs because the Wall is built and then show it to him - that's it; that's as far as the realms of men may go and no further, otherwise the wild hunt will be unleashed again.

 

I imagine that the Free Folk are the descendants from First Men that refused to pay the "blood price" for crossing the Wall after it went up. Jon Snow asks for captives to Tormund's people. The original NW probably asked for sacrifices to strengthen the Wall.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Valar Dohaeris.

 

Has it ever been discussed whether the Free Folk is a type of opposition to not just bowing down to lords and kings, but also this age old expression?

I think Valar Dohaeris means the opposite and is an opposition to kings, lords, and slavers

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

 

double post

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Valar Dohaeris.

 

Has it ever been discussed whether the Free Folk is a type of opposition to not just bowing down to lords and kings, but also this age old expression?

 

Not sure how that would work.  Valar dohaeris is a Valyrian phrase, and Valyria is dated back only as far as 5,000 to 6,000 years.  The free folk, presumably, date back to a mere hundred or so years after the end of the Long Night... so, approximately 8,000 years ago - and half a world away.  It's a different cultural heritage - so even if the spirit of freedom beyond-the-Wall is somewhat opposite to that of service embodied by the House of Black and White... it's hard to draw a direct connection between the two communities.

 

That said, across the different storylines Martin consistently explores similar themes of power, freedom versus enslavement, the role and duty of kings, etc.   So he certainly invites these kinds of explorations, generally.   :)

[Melifeather]

I really like this idea. Something about it is making my mind happy. It fits in well with my own personal crackpot that all of this stuff originated from man in general, and possibly the Starks in specific twisting magic to meet their own ends in order to gain power and immortality.

ETA: Another cracked thought just came to mind. Could it be possible that something like this was tried with Lyanna? All of the circumstances that we hear surrounding her death are shrouded in such mystery. Then we have Ned who can remember none of it. It just seems like a set up for something crazy to have occurred. :dunno:

 

 

Well I'm glad I made your mind happy!

 

 

I think Valar Dohaeris means the opposite and is an opposition to kings, lords, and slavers

 

 

I thought Valar Dohaeris meant "all men must serve"?

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

 

 

Well I'm glad I made your mind happy!

 

 

 

 

I thought Valar Dohaeris meant "all men must serve"?

It does but what it doesnt say is all men must serve but kings ... so i think its anti monarchy 

[wolfmaid7]

I agree that there may have been a big sacrifice or some kind of sacrifice to get things started. Maybe a build-up--Craster hasn't been alive forever. I am very partial to Craster's boys=ww. But if they are sacrificed also or instead--could see the sacrifices building up.

 

But am also circling the scene when Bran tastes the blood from the past sacrifice. I know there are theories that Bran can time travel. But I'm wondering if this is simpler-ish. 

 

Bran tastes the blood because all time and all sacrifices are stored in the trees. Which might mean they don't need a mass of blood to wake--just the waking of magic. "The glass candles are burning" and "the trees have eyes again"--magic is awake. The blood memories in the trees are awake. So, maybe don't need more sacrifices. Maybe.

 

If we consider how time is for a tree,then at any point in history when a sacrifice was done there was access to blood.So i don't think there's any build up of sacrifices and while i think the GSs were always looking something happened that sprung them into action.It could be the return of the Comet or it could be some big ass blood sacrifice,it could be they were just biding their time.I go back to the WB and the breaking of the arm and sync this with the main series statement about the Dark magic the Children did and i can't help but think that their dark magic had a consequence that went deeper than the LN and that was the gods stirring for the first time in such a fashion...the creation of the greenseers.They (cotf) themselves introduced something new that have now become integral to the system that which can be doom or save.Essentially they made their gods.

 

 

 

This is something we've discussed in the past. The Wall, even allowing for GRRM's comment that he made the Wall too high* isn't a military fortification. It simply exists and as I said above for the first half of its existence when you would expect perceptions of the supposed threat to be greater there were no castles and presumably no garrison. That only changed for some reason [and the only reason we've got so far is the overthrow of the Nights King] thousands of years after it was built - hence one of the oldest theories in Heresy that its a magically raised [and maintained] demarcation line.

 

 

 

 

 

*don't have a link but seemingly he said this on seeing the "half-size" version created by the mummers in an old quarry

:agree:

 

 

 

Sorry Wolfmaid, but I think I linked the wrong quote to comment on...I wanted to expand on the blood sacrifice and feeding the vampiric weirwoods. There's a couple instances where blood is "drank eagerly" either by the ground or the snows, so maybe more present (tense) sacrifices woke the ice magic?

 

 

 

 

The white walkers aren't inhabiting the bodies of humans. I'm saying they are a shadow just like the shadows drawn out of Stannis. The spirit which resides in bones is being used to create the shadows in both instances. Fire magic leaves the human alive, while ice magic is drawn from the dead. The dead then have nothing left in the bones. The white walkers of old were eliminated somehow, and the current story white walkers are fairly new. They could be Craster's sons... but they could come from long dead bodies too....we have to consider that, because it should be the opposite of a living human so why not something that is long dead? There also must be someone or something that is drawing out these spirits and creating the white shadows.

If true then the only place would be beyond the Wall or the disappeances that the NW have been experiancing. I still believe that this power never went away and it stirring now only happened because something occured to give it a kick.

 

As to the wws....Perhaps they are the shadows of one who casts them. :devil:

 

i was thinking the same thing just a different kind of bone.

 I'm leaning towards the Nights King (or someone making the equivalent sacrifices) planting his seed in an icy version of Melisandre and the resulting children being mist babies turned into ice babies because of the cold..... Im bored so im just throwing crap on the wall to see if it sticks

Yeah someone, another GS type is running that play.

[Voice]

Ah well, its been a bit slow the last couple of days but you should know by now that if you blink you're liable to miss it.

 

Lo and behold, I blink and there's three pages!

 

 

Folks back out to school i guess :dunno:

 

Yup. Fun.

 

 

if Roose was somehow related to the stark line, I'd be far more inclined to believe he was working with the NK/others.

At best, I'm skeptical. He can just be a bad guy without supernatural connections...

Something I have been pondering since the TWOIF dropped is, who was the first necromancer to mess with things, and is he still alive?

I'm inclined to think there's ancient vampire out there somewhere. It's the only mythical creature in the traditional undead hierarchy GRRM has left out. It would explain a lot about the others...

A vampiric race perhaps cursed because of the blood betrayal and the worship of the bloodstone?

 

Umm... Do you see what I see?

 

The Others are the Vampires...

 

 

Hey guys! Lurker on the forums and brand new to the Heresy pages but it's all really great stuff. 

On the current topic of blood as a catalyst or necessary part of magic, how do you think this relates to the Wall or even some of the other "hinges of the world"? The building of the wall obviously took magic but whose blood would have been sacrificed to build it? And it seems like it would take an extraordinary large amount of magic to build such a colossal structure. I know the Night's King was said to be the 13th LC, but was the wall completed by the time he was in charge? And could his alleged sacrifices be an integral part of the building and completion of the wall? Sorry if this has been discussed before!

 

I'd say this makes far more sense if the first 13 commanders raised the Wall together, and, if the last of them was named Brandon the Builder, the Hero, who outlived his twelve predecessors. It would explain how the original sword named Ice became the sword now known as Dawn, and, why Jon has added importance as the son of Starfall and Winterfell, rather than R+L.

 

 

Yes, blood sacrifice was part of building the Wall, the NW decided to forget the fact a long time ago. The wildlings still remember:

"It's made of ice," Jon pointed out.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood."

 

Either the Long Night was the mechanism used to collect all that blood or the Last Hero and his successor sacrificed a very large number of people after peace was achieved.

 

You mean like:

 

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

 

 

Just one more and then no more yapping bird. Just a lot to think about tonight. Apologies for format--haven't yet figured how to quote from locked threads.

 

@Voice of the First Men: Posted Yesterday, 12:38 PM

Mayhaps LS is GRRM's play on the Sword in the Stone? One can hope.

 

@aDanceWithFlagons: Posted Yesterday, 01:25 PM

And perhaps a twist on the Lady of the lake.

 

@Voice of the First Men: Posted Yesterday, 02:33 PM

I could definitely see that. Combine Nimue and the Stone and you have yourself Lady Stoneheart, born from the Lake Trident.

 

Agreed. Have been looking at basic Lady of the Lake stuff when I get the chance because my head keeps looping on Jon as Sword of the Morning. Seems like he has already had a presentation of a sword. And one of the Nimue legends--she takes him into a cave for a marathon tryst.

 

But Stoneheart--seems like a mix of the magic of Nimue via Beric and the AA myth about sacrificing something you love. But since I'm also holding out for a Catelyn redemption--am focusing also on how Martin has let us into her un-dead head. Could also see her sacrificing self in some way. Killing Cat would be devastating to Brienne, but would mirror Jaime's actions with Aerys. But I also think Martin is showing us UnCat's thoughts for a reason. . . 

 

I think it would be truly amazing if Cat/UnCat did something beneficial for Jon or House Stark. If she ever does, it will certainly be the first time.

 

 

I imagine that the Free Folk are the descendants from First Men that refused to pay the "blood price" for crossing the Wall after it went up. Jon Snow asks for captives to Tormund's people. The original NW probably asked for sacrifices to strengthen the Wall.

 

Here, I'd disagree. The tale of Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell uniting against Night's King seems to suggest there was a degree of cooperation between wildling and non in those ancient days. I would lay the blame for the great divide on Torrhen Stark, the first "Kneeler." Thus were the selves (Free Folk) separated from the others (kneelers).

 

Before that event, I would propose that there was little difference, if any, between the Free Folk and the Mountain Clans.

[Tucu]

 

You mean like:

 

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

 

Here, I'd disagree. The tale of Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell uniting against Night's King seems to suggest there was a degree of cooperation between wildling and non in those ancient days. I would lay the blame for the great divide on Torrhen Stark, the first "Kneeler." Thus were the selves (Free Folk) separated from the others (kneelers).

 

Before that event, I would propose that there was little difference, if any, between the Free Folk and the Mountain Clans.

 

I believe that initially the Starks at Winterfell were part of the order that sacrificed people for the wall. With the amount of blood needed it would have been impossible to keep it secret. The Night's King was not a LC gone rogue. The Joramun and Brandon the Breaker alliance was probably a rebellion against the established order. Erasing the Night's King from the records can be explained as a way to removing the link between Starks and the actions of the Night's King and his predecessors.

 

On the other matter, the conflict between Free Folk and kneelers seems to be a lot older than 300 years. The NW and the Starks have been fighting wildlings and Kings-beyond-the-Wall for thousands of years. Joramun, Gendel and Gorne, Bael the Bard and the Horned Lord all clashed with the Starks and the NW.

[Black Crow]

 

 

I imagine that the Free Folk are the descendants from First Men that refused to pay the "blood price" for crossing the Wall after it went up. Jon Snow asks for captives to Tormund's people. The original NW probably asked for sacrifices to strengthen the Wall.

 

Its possible of course, but I still think it was and still is easy enough to by-pass the Wall and that those living up there have chosen to do so. I don't think its a matter of blood being demanded so much as the price of legal entry being the kneeling and swearing of allegiance to kings and nobles. Up above the Wall they live free.

[Black Crow]

It does but what it doesnt say is all men must serve but kings ... so i think its anti monarchy 

 

That's actually not true because while kings and princes rule they are also supposed in return to serve their people by doing so wisely and protecting them from war, pestilence and famine. There might appear to be a contradiction in the first but without getting into the realms of "just" wars, a war can be justified if it increases the security and wealth of the homeland.

 

One of the things we've discussed in the past is that the refusal to kneel may have had its roots in the Long Night and the destruction of the kingdoms, precisely because the kings and princes failed their people.

[Black Crow]

 

Lo and behold, I blink and there's three pages!

 

 

Ah, you should have been here in the days of the centennial project when we'd run through the full 400 posts and usually a bit more in 48 hours.

 

:commie:  :commie:  :commie:

[Sly Wren]

It does but what it doesnt say is all men must serve but kings ... so i think its anti monarchy 

 

 

That's actually not true because while kings and princes rule they are also supposed in return to serve their people by doing so wisely and protecting them from war, pestilence and famine. There might appear to be a contradiction in the first but without getting into the realms of "just" wars, a war can be justified if it increases the security and wealth of the homeland.

 

One of the things we've discussed in the past is that the refusal to kneel may have had its roots in the Long Night and the destruction of the kingdoms, precisely because the kings and princes failed their people.

But valar dohaeris is also used re: gods. IE: Arya. Choosing to serve the many-faced god vs. the evil Valyrian masters.

 

Seems to imply service is necessary. But am thinking it presents us with a false dilemma.

 

I'm still sloshing this around in my brain--apologies for messiness. But the novels seem to set up a belief among characters that one must choose which gods to serve: old vs. new. Rhllor vs. Great Other. King vs. gods/honor (IE Ned with Robert). Or, serve them all: many-faced god.

 

But the current Starks and the North also have a history of self-sacrifice for people. Ned for Sansa; Quorin for Jon and the Wall;  Jon "for the watch;" old men who chose during the Long Night to "go out hunting" so that the younger could survive.

 

Heresy has talked a lot about how the history of sacrifice to the Old Gods is mostly left in traces in the North. And that this history/ritual has been over-run by a focus on new laws (Ned executes Gared under Robert's authority, not his own, and not to the gods--though still cleans Ice in the godswood). 

 

But I'm wondering if the move the current Starks and the North have made (knowingly or not) is a more human-centric concept of service and sacrifice. For love and family. Yes, the magic of the old gods has power. But one of the reasons the current Starks are so loved is their reputation for fairness and honor and protection of others. Of service to humans, not the "old gods." Not to the kings in the south. But to the family and people of the North.

 

And those sacrifices have power--Ned's sacrifice opens Sansa's eyes. Not as mystical as Bran's 3rd eye, but Sansa completely re-sees Joff. Quorin's sacrifice and Jon's willingness to follow through--he gets that "vision" of the Sword of the Morning." And am thinking Jon's sacrifice could well have mystical implications, too.

 

So: "valar dohaeris" to many-faced god vs. corrupt kings; old gods vs. new--I think Martin's presenting it as a false dilemma. The power of the wolves and the North is in sacrifice and service to each other (vs. Dany's sacrificing of others). Maybe. . .