R+L=J v.155

[MtnLion]

5) Where are the bodies?! (Kind of a joke question, but in all seriousness why are there indications that the bodies of the deceased weren't all returned to their families?)

The rest of your questions are what the author has told us happened.  We know that Ned met three Kingsguard at the tower, with his six companions.  (One was a crannogman, another is fresh from the dungeons and only a squire.  That makes five fighting men against the three Kingsguard.)  Ned erected eight cairns for the fallen.  Three for the Kingsguard, which tells us that Ned took care in their burial, instead of a communal grave, they have their own individual tombs.  Five for this fallen comrades, that Ned had vowed to never forget, again an individual burial given to each man.  Ned took Lyanna's bones back to Winterfell for burial in the family crypt, and had a statue made for her.  That would likely be the only statue in the (hall of kings) crypts of a woman.  Interesting . . .

[Arrow of the Morning]

Hey. If they can burn one body then they can certainly burn other bodies too.
They bury them because they did not want to carry all the bones back.
Only lyanna's is important for ned.

 

To burn a body you have to make a funeral pyre and for this you need wood, Did they had wood enough to make nine funeral pyres in the middle of the desert of Dorne? I don't think so.

Lyanna's bones were taken because of Robert, because he would want to know what happened and bury Lyanna in somewhere would draw the attention to the Tower of Joy, probably Ned didn't want that.

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

To burn a body you have to make a funeral pyre and for this you need wood, Did they had wood enough to make nine funeral pyres in the middle of the desert of Dorne? I don't think so.

Lyanna's bones were taken because of Robert, because he would want to know what happened and bury Lyanna in somewhere would draw the attention to the Tower of Joy, probably Ned didn't want that.

Why does it matter whether the other dead were put in the cairns without having been burned first or whether they were burned and then only the bones were put in the cairns? I think we know that Ned built eight cairns and each of the dead were put in one of the cairns. I had not thought that issue was up for debate, and I am not sure how it could possibly matter whether their bodies were burned first. Am I missing something?

[Arrow of the Morning]

Why does it matter whether the other dead were put in the cairns without having been burned first or whether they were burned and then only the bones were put in the cairns? I think we know that Ned built eight cairns and each of the dead were put in one of the cairns. I had not thought that issue was up for debate, and I am not sure how it could possibly matter whether their bodies were burned first. Am I missing something? 

 

 

That is not a major question, but many people who question about Lyanna's death, if someone else survived to the fight in the Tower of Joy and what is believable or not in Ned's dream make this question. It is a piece of the puzzle, not so important, but that can bring some light to the events in the tower.

[mywintersong]

R+L=J certainly seems to be the most likely theory, but there are some threads loose that I think would be interesting to tie up.
 
For instance:
 
1) Why did Rhaegar choose to hide Lyanna in some isolated part of Dorne of all places? Wouldn't it have been more logical to hide her somewhere else like the Reach where there's better access to basic supplies (food, medical expertise, etc.) and no conflicting loyalties such as the Dornish might have had about Rhaegar eloping with Lyanna?
 
2) How did Ned and his companions know that Lyanna could be found at the Tower of Joy and how were they able to locate it? Were they tipped off?
 
3) If Lyanna's presence at the Tower of Joy was meant to be a secret then why guard her with three conspicuous and well-known Kingsguard who could certainly have been put to better use on a battlefield - say, by fighting alongside and protecting Rhaegar? What exactly was the contingency that Rhaegar was hoping to be protected against that specifically called for some of the best talent on the Targaryen side to be left behind for guard duty? 
 
N.B. Please be a bit more imaginative than simply saying 'to protect the heir'. That much is obvious.
 
What I really want to know is 'from what'? There are just three of them there. What were they supposed to have done if Ned or Robert had turned up with a battalion?
 
The likelihood was always that the Tower of Joy would not be reached by the Rebels until after the outcome of the war had been decided and by that stage the Kingsguard presence at the Tower would be futile anyway. So why not take Dayne and the others to the Battle at the Trident where they might have actually been able to make a difference?
 
4) Who were the 'they' that 'found' Ned at the Tower of Joy apart from Howland Reed? If as I suggested back in 2) that Ned had been tipped off as to Lyanna's location, could his informant have followed the group there? 
 
5) Where are the bodies?! (Kind of a joke question, but in all seriousness why are there indications that the bodies of the deceased weren't all returned to their families?)

As for number one,I just had a bit of a crackpot idea. Maybe Elia was in on it? (Sort of a Sarai and Hagar thing...I can't give you more babies, take a second wife.)

[Ser Creighton]

Well if we are talking about the 8 cairns, I have some crackpot about it. Not sure if it means anything but Ser Creighton is going to do numbers again, but just for a minute. Don't be scared it will be okay, and there is no corn involved. 3 numbers stand out at the Tower of Joy, 3, 7, and 8. Going to do a quick look at 8. You might actually want to read this by the way, you will see why, it's good I promise. Hmmmm that's a stretch, it's interesting. It's not as long as it looks there are parts you can feel free to skip, they are just supporting quotes, and I will even let you know when to skip.

 

8 like 3 is a very religious number in numerology, of note the bible and Buddhism.

 

Start with Buddhism, the Buddhist symbol is the 8 spoke wheel known as the Dharma wheel, very complex not going to go that into it. At the center of the wheel are 3 treasures, also known as the 3 jewels, sometimes it's depicted as a yin yang and sometimes it's this red white and blue sort of yin yang swirl, more often than not it is simply refereed to as Joy. It's also heavily tied to life death and rebirth. A lot of those themes you will see in the books.

 

Ser Arthur Dayne and Ned, "and so it begins and so it ends.' Sorry paraphrasing.

 

The beginning and the end, the end and the beginning. Life and death, but also very symbolic of the Alpha and the Omega.

 

The historic Christian Church has traditionally associated the Number 8 with the entrance into the Covenant of God. This understanding comes from God Himself who commanded Circumcision - the Sign of the Covenant - to be performed on the Eighth Day. God used the same language - אות ברית (Ot B'rit, Sign of the Covenant) - when He gave the Rainbow (Genesis 9.13):

 

What do skittles have to do with this? I don't know but I am googling like a mad man.

 

"I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth."

 

So it's actually associated with covenant and light.

 

Keep reading.

 

"The word "rainbow" (קשת, qeshet) used in this verse sums to the Number 800 which also is the value of the Greek words "Lord" and "Faith." It also is the value of the final letter of the Greek alphabet, Omega."

 

More than likely it seems Arthur was the 8th person to die. And so it begins and so it ends. Or does it? Outside of the covenant the number 8 is most heavily associated with? Resurrection. Really it's 7 and 1, they did funky things with numbers back them. Beric Dondarrion, if you include the time he was actually born Beric was born and reborn 7 times the 8th time he resurrected Cat.

 

The number 8 in the Bible represents a new beginning, meaning a new order or creation, and man's true 'born again' event when he is resurrected from the dead into eternal life.

 

Why 8? Well this is why and if you understand all of it good for, I sort of do, but you can skip and just go 8 and Resurrection, and start reading after the quotes.

 

"Like the Old Testament Passover lamb, Jesus was selected as the Lamb to take away man's sins on the Hebrew day of Nisan 10 (April 1, 30 A.D. - John 12: 28 - 29). He was crucified on Nisan 14 (Wednesday, April 5 in 30 A.D.). His resurrection occurred, exactly as he stated, three days and three nights after he was buried, which was at the end of the weekly Sabbath day that fell on Nisan 17 (seventeen symbolizes victory). Nisan 17 was also the eighth day, counting inclusively, from the time Christ was selected as man's sacrificial Lamb. All this bears record of Jesus' perfect sacrifice and His complete victory over death."

 

"Jesus showed himself alive EIGHT times after his resurrection from the dead. His first appearance alive was to Mary Magdalene (Mark 16:9 - 11). He then showed himself to two disciples traveling to Emmaus (Luke 24). Next, he appeared to all the disciples except Thomas (John 20:19 - 24) then a week later to all them when Thomas was present (John 20:26 - 29). According to the apostle Paul, Christ also was seen by 500 believers at one time (1Corinthians 15:4 - 7). Jesus also met his disciples at the appointed place in Galilee (Matthew 28:16 - 17) and on Galilee's shores (John 21:1 - 24). His final meeting was on the Mount of Olives, where he gave his followers instructions before ascending to heaven (Acts 1)."

 

"Eight is the number of Jesus, whose name in the Greek adds up to 888."

 

Did you understand any of that? I really didn't myself, but 8 and Resurrection, good enough.

 

The Night's Watch. Do any of you know why they are called a Watch? It is a form of time keeping still used today. The 8 watches, 4 during the day and 4 at night, and both begin and end at sunrise and sunset the periods are just inverted.

 

What does this all mean? Probably nothing, but I did manage to associate, Life, Death, Rebirth, Light, Alpha and Omega, Joy, Covenant, Night Watch, Sunrise, Sunset, A guy called the Sword of the Morning with his sword Dawn,(Remember Dawn = rebirth and new beginnings) Arthur also associated heavily with Jesus and rebirth King Arthur (He is suppose to come again or something, or his magic sword is.... ohhhhhhh) with number 8 based off the 8 cairns, of the 8th person to die. Hey look three eights, the Jesus number.

 

Is it significant? Who knows, but I didn't have anything to do and I saw a number. This took me less than an hour. However I did find certain things interesting like the whole Joy thing, the rainbow, light, rebirth. Had no idea an hour ago 8 had so much meaning, I was like 8 ball, pool, oh and look Jesus.

 

Just a heads up I am not religious at all, blame google, and typing 8 spoke wheel. Oh crap forgot the 8 spoke wheel from the books.

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Waynwood

 

Apparently Dany payed them a visit.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

This has to be the slowest R+L=J thread I've ever seen.

[Ser Creighton]

This has to be the slowest R+L=J thread I've ever seen.

Don't jinx it.

[J. Stargaryen]

Has anyone looked before at a possible parallel in the following two scenario's, both fever dreams?

 

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

(A Game of Thrones. Eddard X)

 

He dreamt an old dream of a hovel by the sea, three dogs whimpering, a woman’s tears.

(A Dance with Dragons, Prologue)

 

It was mentioned in my thread about the linguistic similarities between Ned's ToJ dream and Cersei's Maggy the Frog dream. There are some obvious connections between this prologue and Jon Snow; e.g., a warg/skinchanger dying. Varamyr even thinks about Jon, and how warging into Ghost after his body dies would be a "second life fit for a king." Indeed.

[Avalatis]

snip

 

Half life 3 or 8 is confirmed?

 

On a more serious note, who is supposed to be resurrecting in your study of 8 and 3? Arthur or Jon?

[purple-eyes]

As for number one,I just had a bit of a crackpot idea. Maybe Elia was in on it? (Sort of a Sarai and Hagar thing...I can't give you more babies, take a second wife.)

 

Then Rhaegar may just marry Lyanna in KL or DS. One husband and two wives were living happily ever after. 

[Ser Creighton]

 

Half life 3 or 8 is confirmed?

 

On a more serious note, who is supposed to be resurrecting in your study of 8 and 3? Arthur or Jon?

It wasn't really a study I was just screwing around, and seeing where google would take me. Ummm I guess both really, though if it did happen I would suggest one would be literal and one would be symbolic.

[mywintersong]

Then Rhaegar may just marry Lyanna in KL or DS. One husband and two wives were living happily ever after.

Lol, you're right. Though happily ever after is not how I would describe Sarai, Abraham and Hagar...

[Ser Creighton]

 

It was mentioned in my thread about the linguistic similarities between Ned's ToJ dream and Cersei's Maggy the Frog dream. There are some obvious connections between this prologue and Jon Snow; e.g., a warg/skinchanger dying. Varamyr even thinks about Jon, and how warging into Ghost after his body dies would be a "second life fit for a king." Indeed.

Yeah that's right I remember this, we were doing the inverse parallel of the tower of Joy and Hardin Tower on R+L=J, and you pointed out that parallel, and told me about it. You had a right up on the linguistics, I can't remember which thread it was on. I actually started to do a contribution write up for your theory, did I do it? I should look that up and see if I did it. I remember some notes and research. Yeah that Maggy and tower of Joy dream was really interesting. Can you post a link to it JStar, I feel like I am forgetting something.

[ASOIAF_Ali]

Why does this theory seem so blatantly obvious and indisputable when I just did not pick up on it from the books at all? Am I the only one? 

[TRLR]

Why does this theory seem so blatantly obvious and indisputable when I just did not pick up on it from the books at all? Am I the only one? 

Being blatantly obvious and indisputable are not mutually exclusive. And I didn't pick up on it at first as well. Plenty of people didn't. 

[ASOIAF_Ali]

Being blatantly obvious and indisputable are not mutually exclusive. And I didn't pick up on it at first as well. Plenty of people didn't. 

I know both aren't mutually exclusive but the theory is mutually both obvious and pretty much indisputable at this point  :P so I was just wondering if lots of people didn't get it because of these. Glad I'm not the only one though  ;)

[purple-eyes]

Why does this theory seem so blatantly obvious and indisputable when I just did not pick up on it from the books at all? Am I the only one? 

 

this is because GRRM intentionally covered everything and spent a a lot of efforts to provide alternative answers about Jon's mother. 

sometimes it gave me a feeling that he was trying too hard to make this as a mystery. 

for example, if everybody knew lyanna was raped by Rhaegar for like one year, isn't it absurd that nobody even think about they may have a child? 

Jon's father is Rhaegar, how convenient is that he just happens to have a face of pure Stark without even any similarity with Rhaegar?  hair, eye, facial feature, nothing at all. I mean, I understand a son may not look like his father, but absolutely nothing is quite hard to believe. This is just something made up for the hidden prince thing. If this is a real case in the reality, Jon's parentage would be questioned by Robert.  

[Ser Creighton]

 

this is because GRRM intentionally covered everything and spent a a lot of efforts to provide alternative answers about Jon's mother. 

sometimes it gave me a feeling that he was trying too hard to make this as a mystery. 

for example, if everybody knew lyanna was raped by Rhaegar for like one year, isn't it absurd that nobody even think about they may have a child? 

Jon's father is Rhaegar, how convenient is that he just happens to have a face of pure Stark without even any similarity with Rhaegar?  hair, eye, facial feature, nothing at all. I mean, I understand a son may not look like his father, but absolutely nothing is quite hard to believe. This is just something made up for the hidden prince thing. If this is a real case in the reality, Jon's parentage would be questioned by Robert.  

I have felt that way about it as well at times.

 

I found the trail to the mystery to be obvious though rather than all the clues. The clues may be obscure and some more obvious, when you start looking at it and following the clues they become more obvious when you know what to look for. But the set up or trail that leads you to the mystery was just over obvious.

 

1. Early on of course we meet the Starks, and we meet Jon Snow, so right off the bat one of these Starks is not like the others he stands out. This is quickly enforced with the Dire Wolf Ghost who is also not like the Others. Bran, Arya and Robb very likable characters just swoon over Jon. Tyrion identifies Jon and likes him, early Tyrion is one of the most likable characters in the series. So right away Jon is labeled with the special factor, with other characters basically campaigning for him and it will not be the last time that occurs in the books. Later sweet likable Sam will identify Jon as just the best thing ever and Jon will stop the bullies from hurting Sam. The very unlikable Thorne will then play the part of Bully but Jon will stand up to him. Mormont will also identify Jon as special.

 

So basically for 2/3 of the first book it's Jon is special, special, special, special, Martin will tone down this heavy handed approach later. And this character who is getting the special treatment, not the only one, but in this case we are talking about Jon. It's kind of like how he beat readers over the head about how bad Dany's life was early in thrones. Jon is given a step mother that seems very much to dislike him, and noble Ned.

 

The author makes a point to introduce us to Lyanna and Rhaegar very early one setting up one mystery and makes sure to mention time and again that Jon who is heavily singled out early has a mystery mom who is brought multiple time, a alot. So when the author goes out of his way to show you this character is unique and special and then drops a mystery on him and keeps repeating the mystery, it would seem he obviously wants you to pay attention. He goes through all that trouble and then says Wylla, yeah sorry was not buying that for a second. He did give some decent options with Ashara and even Arthur and Lyanna. Arthur is an easy draw as he comes off as super noble while Rhaegar his a rapist. So most readers want the special motherless child whose step mother was just mean to, to have the best. The super beauty Ashara, the great and noble Arthur and the Ned, even Howland the mystery man.

 

Martin was one step away from from having a glowing Arrow hovering over Jon saying special. He did the same with Dany and Bran. I mean come on the abused last of her kind Dragon Princess, oh look Dragon eggs gosh I am sure those won't come into play. Oh look a 3 eyed crow, flashing arrow, flashing arrow, the unique special crow, in the special little boys dreams, and Bran is so sweet, so sweet, we know this because it is repeated over and over. And he is thrown out of a window buy the big bad and crippled, and a coma, and oh he is magical.

 

While I like many of the characters, pretty much from day one everyone knew, Jon Special mystery, Dany Special one of a kind Dragon princess with dragon eggs, Bran special boy with magic dreams and 3 eyed crow. Yes Tyrion was very interesting and likable in book one, but those three are doing the magical mystery tour from day one. Though Tyrion may have the better concealed mystery of the bunch, though who knows the books are not done yet and I suspect we will get some surprises along the way.

 

I mean Jon is nearly as heavily associated with the word Mother as Dany and she is literally called Mother, and Mother is a major theme of the series, Cat, Cersei, Dany, and Jon.

[TRLR]

I know both aren't mutually exclusive but the theory is mutually both obvious and pretty much indisputable at this point  :P so I was just wondering if lots of people didn't get it because of these. Glad I'm not the only one though  ;)

You're definitely not the only one. I tend to devour a book at first reading and then I go back and re-read and pick up on the clues.