Jump to content

R+L=J v.155


Jon Weirgaryen

Recommended Posts

Well -- the boy also would be Lyanna's son -- and as a bastard would not be a strong claimant to the Targ dynasty and would not officially even be a Targaryen. Lyanna seemed absolutely desperate for Ned to promise something -- most likely to keep Jon's true identity a secret. While possible that Lyanna would have this fear even if Jon is only the bastard son of Rhaegar, the level of fear that she seemed to display is justified more clearly if Lyanna understands that Jon is a direct threat to Robert as the true-born son of Rhaegar. So while not 100% proof (I suppose nothing can be until GRRM does the big reveal), the supporting evidence that Ned and Lyanna thought Jon was the true-born son of Rhaegar (and thus that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married) keeps piling up.

I really can not see the proof of "marriage" keeps piling up.
The proof of RLJ and jon "future king or hero" do keep piling up.
As the last blood of rhaegar (who Robert hated like a hell) and also the reason of lyanna's death, there is already more than enough reason to fear about Jon's fate.
everybody who may know they got married (if they did) were dead already.
Rhaegar had a official wife which is known to the whole world.
It is way harder to make people believe him a true born than believe he is a bastard.
Honestly, People by default would think jon is a bastard. Please face this reality.
Let us say, like you said, jon is safe from Robert if people knew him as a bastard of r and l.
So Ned took jon back home, then said jon is a bastard of r and l, who would deny this?

And GRRM always makes important bastards legitimized, not tracing back to try to prove the parents married at the beginning. It is quite a technical difficulty.
Like blackfyre, bloodraven, etc. etc.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

p-e -- 

 

Given Ned's sense of honor, I don't think he would be willing to brand his sister as someone who bore a bastard if she did not (at least in his opinion -- and presumably if Lyanna told Ned she considered herself to be Rhaegar's wife, then Ned would accept Lyanna's view). He would consider it more honorable to brand himself as having bore a bastard then put that lie on his sister. So while Ned perhaps could have taken that approach, I don't think Ned would have felt he was doing the "right" thing if he did so. I think he also might worry that such information might get people to ask too many questions and someone who knew about the wedding might be forced to talk. We don't know that all attendees are dead -- Rhaegar had additional companions when he left KL and some of them might have still be with Rhaegar when the wedding occurred.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The idea that Jon, the fruit of Rhaegar and Lyanna's union, would be safe from Robert's fury just because he was a bastard and not trueborn is a reach. I'm not saying Bobby B would have definitely killed him, but he may have regardless.

It's not entirely indicative of anything either way. It is, again, conjecture.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

UL,

 

that isn't the only plausible explanation for Hightower's decision to stay there. And it actually creates another problem: Why did Ser Gerold feel obliged to obey Prince Rhaegar in that? He was the Lord Commander, and thus not really obliged to obey the Prince of Dragonstone. Rhaegar didn't know what orders Hightower received in KL from the king, so Hightower could easily have made up a royal command to return to the capital if Rhaegar had commanded him to stay at the tower. Rhaegar would have had no way to know that he was lying - if he did lie there.

 

The idea that the tower's location has to be a secret makes only sense in scenario in which Aerys is a mortal danger to Lyanna - which is just speculation at this point. There is no textual evidence for that. My interpretation for the Kingsguard at the tower/with Lyanna is that Rhaegar wanted to ensure that she is safe, protected by people he could trust and who would never abandon or betray his trust.

Strictly speaking Rhaegar would also have been forced to answer his father's question about Lyanna and her whereabouts as the king's dutiful son and loyal subject. You cannot answer with 'I'd rather not talk about that' when the king asks you a direct question, or can you? Not to mention that Aerys would have had much more leeway over Rhaegar if push came to shove than he had over Hightower. Hightower only swore an oath, but the king didn't have his family in his power. Aerys was a very paranoid madman at this point. The idea that he would have accepted excuses and defiance from Rhaegar when asking him about Lyanna (or the whereabouts of Hightower, Dayne, and Whent) doesn't make much sense to me. That would have triggered his suspicions, and Rhaegar himself could easily have ended being tortured or forced to watch how Elia/Rhaenys/Aegon burned alive. Sure, perhaps Aerys didn't care about Lyanna at all and never even asked about her - then nothing of this sort could have happened. But then, it simply makes no sense to assume he wouldn't want to know, and directly after his return Rhaegar would just have been one man in his father's power. He wouldn't have had any men, nor necessarily a good reputation among the loyalists in the Crownlands since his absence greatly contributed to the defeats the Targaryens suffered in the field.

That is what I mean with 'plot hole' there.

 

I'm inclined to believe that Aerys was crying for Rhaegar and Lyanna's heads around the time of their marriage/disappearance, but he may have cooled down/changed his mind since then. We have to keep in mind that this guy was a madman, not prone to rational deliberations. The fact that Aerys recalled Rhaegar and allowed him to command his armies is supports the theory that there was a sort of reconciliation with Rhaegar - at least on Aerys' side - rather than the whole blackmail or desperation idea (although the fact that Rhaegar would have been a fine figurehead may have played a certain role in the reconciliation thing).

 

The idea that Rhaegar would be needed to lead the battle is a little bit far-fetched, too. Sure, the man was a much better figurehead than Mad Aerys, but he wasn't a proven commander or general as far as we know. Aerys II still had other capable men who could have lead his armies to the Trident, Ser Gerold Hightower, the commander of the Targaryen armies on the Stepstones, first and foremost among them. Barristan Selmy, the hero of Duskendale and Slayer of Maelys the Monstrous would have been another fine choice. Ser Criston Cole, serving as Hand under Aegon II, also commanded a Green army during the Dance, so this wouldn't have been unusual. In fact, Ser Gerold would have been a fine choice for the office of the Hand after the exile of both Merryweather and Connington - that is, if the king truly had felt he could trust him.

 

My take on Hightower's motivation is that even he, like Arthur and Oswell, must have made a choice about whom he felt his ultimate loyalty was to. And that person would have been Rhaegar rather than Aerys. The fact that he stayed at the tower rather than accompanying the prince back to KL and to battle indicates as much. If Hightower had been forced or coerced by Rhaegar to stay there then Hightower could easily have found a way to return to KL after Rhaegar's departure, and would have done so if he had been in Aerys' camp, or believed his place was beside his king rather than at the tower. This would not be only about the Rhaegar-Aerys rivalry/intrigues/mistrust but also about the fact that the first duty of a Kingsguard was protecting the king and his immediate family. Both Rhaegar and Aerys were in immediate danger due to the war and the battles, and the Kingsguard would have wanted to be at their side - either in KL or in battle - rather than guarding the Prince of Dragonstone's second wife - be she pregnant or not.

George telling us the KG may not have liked Rhaegar's commands could be a hint for that as well - they did not want to guard Lyanna, they wanted to be with him, to protect him battle. Aerys may have had little or nothing to do with that.

 

And I've to say I've trouble believing that the safety of the unborn child was Rhaegar's utmost concern when he left the tower. If that had been the case, wouldn't he then have sent them to a castle with a maester and people that could care for her in better environment. I mean, if the birth occurred at the tower that would have effectively invited trouble, and Rhaegar should have known that - especially in light what happened to Rhaegar's many siblings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

p-e -- 
 
Given Ned's sense of honor, I don't think he would be willing to brand his sister as someone who bore a bastard if she did not (at least in his opinion -- and presumably if Lyanna told Ned she considered herself to be Rhaegar's wife, then Ned would accept Lyanna's view). He would consider it more honorable to brand himself as having bore a bastard then put that lie on his sister. So while Ned perhaps could have taken that approach, I don't think Ned would have felt he was doing the "right" thing if he did so. I think he also might worry that such information might get people to ask too many questions and someone who knew about the wedding might be forced to talk. We don't know that all attendees are dead -- Rhaegar had additional companions when he left KL and some of them might have still be with Rhaegar when the wedding occurred.

Like what I said, no matter how lyanna and rhaegar thought they were legally married,
The whole westeros would by default think jon is a bastard. I doubt even ned would buy and trust this polygamy marriage stuff. Even lyanna said: yeah! we are married! Ned would be confused: really? I remembered he had a wife.
It is much much harder to persuade people buy that he is a true born son even you can get a few unimportant unnamed companions or servants to say there was a wedding. Unless this wedding happened after the death of Elia.

You may just imagine rhaegar escaped for his death and returned to TOJ and married lyanna after elia's death, this would be more persuasive to me. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

UL,
 
that isn't the only plausible explanation for Hightower's decision to stay there. And it actually creates another problem: Why did Ser Gerold feel obliged to obey Prince Rhaegar in that? He was the Lord Commander, and thus not really obliged to obey the Prince of Dragonstone. Rhaegar didn't know what orders Hightower received in KL from the king, so Hightower could easily have made up a royal command to return to the capital if Rhaegar had commanded him to stay at the tower. Rhaegar would have had no way to know that he was lying - if he did lie there.
 
The idea that the tower's location has to be a secret makes only sense in scenario in which Aerys is a mortal danger to Lyanna - which is just speculation at this point. There is no textual evidence for that. My interpretation for the Kingsguard at the tower/with Lyanna is that Rhaegar wanted to ensure that she is safe, protected by people he could trust and who would never abandon or betray his trust.
Strictly speaking Rhaegar would also have been forced to answer his father's question about Lyanna and her whereabouts as the king's dutiful son and loyal subject. You cannot answer with 'I'd rather not talk about that' when the king asks you a direct question, or can you? Not to mention that Aerys would have had much more leeway over Rhaegar if push came to shove than he had over Hightower. Hightower only swore an oath, but the king didn't have his family in his power. Aerys was a very paranoid madman at this point. The idea that he would have accepted excuses and defiance from Rhaegar when asking him about Lyanna (or the whereabouts of Hightower, Dayne, and Whent) doesn't make much sense to me. That would have triggered his suspicions, and Rhaegar himself could easily have ended being tortured or forced to watch how Elia/Rhaenys/Aegon burned alive. Sure, perhaps Aerys didn't care about Lyanna at all and never even asked about her - then nothing of this sort could have happened. But then, it simply makes no sense to assume he wouldn't want to know, and directly after his return Rhaegar would just have been one man in his father's power. He wouldn't have had any men, nor necessarily a good reputation among the loyalists in the Crownlands since his absence greatly contributed to the defeats the Targaryens suffered in the field.
That is what I mean with 'plot hole' there.
 
I'm inclined to believe that Aerys was crying for Rhaegar and Lyanna's heads around the time of their marriage/disappearance, but he may have cooled down/changed his mind since then. We have to keep in mind that this guy was a madman, not prone to rational deliberations. The fact that Aerys recalled Rhaegar and allowed him to command his armies is supports the theory that there was a sort of reconciliation with Rhaegar - at least on Aerys' side - rather than the whole blackmail or desperation idea (although the fact that Rhaegar would have been a fine figurehead may have played a certain role in the reconciliation thing).
 
The idea that Rhaegar would be needed to lead the battle is a little bit far-fetched, too. Sure, the man was a much better figurehead than Mad Aerys, but he wasn't a proven commander or general as far as we know. Aerys II still had other capable men who could have lead his armies to the Trident, Ser Gerold Hightower, the commander of the Targaryen armies on the Stepstones, first and foremost among them. Barristan Selmy, the hero of Duskendale and Slayer of Maelys the Monstrous would have been another fine choice. Ser Criston Cole, serving as Hand under Aegon II, also commanded a Green army during the Dance, so this wouldn't have been unusual. In fact, Ser Gerold would have been a fine choice for the office of the Hand after the exile of both Merryweather and Connington - that is, if the king truly had felt he could trust him.
 
My take on Hightower's motivation is that even he, like Arthur and Oswell, must have made a choice about whom he felt his ultimate loyalty was to. And that person would have been Rhaegar rather than Aerys. The fact that he stayed at the tower rather than accompanying the prince back to KL and to battle indicates as much. If Hightower had been forced or coerced by Rhaegar to stay there then Hightower could easily have found a way to return to KL after Rhaegar's departure, and would have done so if he had been in Aerys' camp, or believed his place was beside his king rather than at the tower. This would not be only about the Rhaegar-Aerys rivalry/intrigues/mistrust but also about the fact that the first duty of a Kingsguard was protecting the king and his immediate family. Both Rhaegar and Aerys were in immediate danger due to the war and the battles, and the Kingsguard would have wanted to be at their side - either in KL or in battle - rather than guarding the Prince of Dragonstone's second wife - be she pregnant or not.
George telling us the KG may not have liked Rhaegar's commands could be a hint for that as well - they did not want to guard Lyanna, they wanted to be with him, to protect him battle. Aerys may have had little or nothing to do with that.
 
And I've to say I've trouble believing that the safety of the unborn child was Rhaegar's utmost concern when he left the tower. If that had been the case, wouldn't he then have sent them to a castle with a maester and people that could care for her in better environment. I mean, if the birth occurred at the tower that would have effectively invited trouble, and Rhaegar should have known that - especially in light what happened to Rhaegar's many siblings.


When rhaegar left, lyanna must be early or middle in the pregnancy.
Rhaegar may think he can win and come back soon. He did not think too much about the baby birth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

LV--

 

I am not sure that we can take this conversation much further and what you and I view as plot holes and "reasonable" behavior among these characters seems to be so fundamentally different. I will try to outline the counter-narrative, although I suspect you have heard it before and just don't find it credible. I, on the other hand, find it much more credible than the version you are putting forth. Here is goes (in a as condensed a version as I can muster):

 

I don't find it credible that Hightower would decide that Rhaegar rather than Aerys is the person Hightower will follow. Neither the notion of duty that Hightower expresses nor the statement to Ned about Aerys sitting on the throne (and the dream must make sense to Ned even if those words were never spoken -- and Ned likely would have found out from Lyanna if Hightower "switched sides" to Rhaegar).

 

Aerys is a mortal danger to Lyanna -- she is sister to Ned, a rebel leader. How can one imagine that Aerys might not use Lyanna as a hostage against Ned or threaten to kill her if Ned does not surrender? Rhaegar could not take that chance. And yes, I believe Rhaegar could and would refuse to answer a direct question from Aerys about Lyanna's location. I don't believe that Rhaegar thought that Aerys would have the nerve to use the powers of being King to force Rhaegar to reveal this information. I know you state that it does not make sense to you -- it makes perfect sense to me. The war is going badly and for some reason Aerys seems to think he needs Rhaegar to lead the army. I agree that this belief seems a bit odd -- and if there is a plot hole, the plot hole is Aerys sending for Rhaegar at all. I am not sure that decision really made sense as you point out -- Hightower himself probably would have been a better war general. But we know for a fact, I think, that Aerys came to the conclusion that he needed to get Rhaegar back to lead the army. And Rhaegar remained the heir to the throne up to Rhaegar's death. Aerys is not going to put his own heir up on charges for refusal to tell Aerys where Lyanna is located. That assertion -- which you think is an inevitable consequence of Rhaegar coming back and not telling Aerys -- I personally find highly implausible. So obviously we have quite different views of what actions are reasonable or plausible under the circumstances. Unfortunately, we have no idea whether GRRM thinks more like you or me.

 

I see no evidence that Aerys ever called for Rhaegar's head or Lyanna's head. No such statement is mentioned anywhere in the series or the world book or the app or anywhere. You really are making that up out of thin air. I see no support for that assertion at all.

 

Now while I agreed above that it might be a bit far-fetched that Aerys really needed Rhaegar to lead the charge -- you do not suggest what reason Aerys had for calling back Rhaegar and having Rhaegar lead the charge. That action might not really make sense -- but we know it happened anyway. So what is your theory? My theory is that Aerys, for some reason, thought that the troops needed Rhaegar at the lead to be motivated to fight hard enough to win the war. All the evidence makes this conclusion almost undeniable. No matter how implausible, the facts more or less speak for themselves. What is the alternative?

 

As to why Hightower stayed even if he remained loyal to Aerys, I think the answer is simple. Aerys did not order Hightower explicitly to return. Rhaegar extracted a promise from Hightower to stay at ToJ. Hightower believes in keeping his word and as long as his "vow" to protect the King is being fulfilled by ensure that Aerys has some KG protection (in the end, only Jaime, but KG nonetheless)--and safe behind the walls of the RK, Hightower will keep his promise to Rhaegar as long as he can do so consistently with his KG vows. By the time that Hightower would have found out that Aerys was in danger, I suspect Hightower also learned that Aerys was dead.

 

At that point -- all bets are off, but you know why I think they stayed at ToJ at that point and don't think I have to go into that issue again (hint--it might have something to do with Jon ;) ).

 

So I find this scenario considerably more plausible than your scenario (which makes little sense to me in certain respects). And vice versa for you. So I am not sure what else there is to say on the matter, but if you think there is something else useful to add, feel free. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bottom line is there was no reason for nearly half of the KG forces to be at the ToJ prior to all the Royal family dying or fleeing Westeros 'just because Rhaegar told them to.' And protecting Jon, as the 3rd or possibly 4th heir in line to the throne is not justification for that either.

It makes no sense at all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bottom line is there was no reason for nearly half of the KG forces to be at the ToJ prior to all the Royal family dying or fleeing Westeros 'just because Rhaegar told them to.' And protecting Jon, as the 3rd or possibly 4th heir in line to the throne is not justification for that either.

It makes no sense at all.

 

It does if you assume the real reason for Rhaegar being in the tower with Lyanna was never Lyanna but politics.

 

I wish I have the time to start a thread with this, but if you take that as an assumption, and part from that and only that, the scenario is more fitting than all of it being for love or prophecy. Sadly, that idea is not very popular among many RLJ'ers. :dunno:

 

(IICR, that was a method of solving equations and/or proving the value of propositions. Something like "assume an absurd" to prove the veracity or not of an idea).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did propose a political scenario that puts Rhaegar with Lyanna and away from everything for a long enough period of time for Jon to be conceived. It also wouldn't entirely prohibit Rhaegar and Lyanma from getting secretly wed.

I was told it makes no sense at all.

Edit- Robb Stark married a woman he dishonored after sleeping with her. Same could have happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually it would be a big twist if we eventually figure out that Rhaegar did everything out of political plan to depose his father.

He was a real player of game of thrones who hid the politics (thorns) under the disguise of love affair (blue winter rose).  

He abducted Lyanna (or seduced her) to make three major houses against his father.

He hid because he did not want to make this war against himself. He only wanted to make a civil war against his dad.

He probably had some secret agreement with ambitious Rickard and Tywin too. 

If Brandon did not ruin anything, then Rickard and Robert (who know nothing) would lead a rebellion and significantly weaken Aerys's power. 

Then at the end of it Rhaegar would show up and Rickard and Tywin would support him to depose his dad. Dorne would back him up anyway. 

it is indeed a great plan.

What is a better way to stir a serious rebellion than what he did with Lyanna? Nothing else. 

Unfortunately wild wolf Brandon came out and got himself captured so Rickard had to go to KL to save his heir. 

Then Rhaegar's plan was totally out of control. 

He was very upset so Lyanna comforted him by some sex.

Or Lyanna was very upset with the deaths of her father and brother so Rhaegar comforted her by some sex.

Then we have Jon. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bottom line is there was no reason for nearly half of the KG forces to be at the ToJ prior to all the Royal family dying or fleeing Westeros 'just because Rhaegar told them to.' And protecting Jon, as the 3rd or possibly 4th heir in line to the throne is not justification for that either.

It makes no sense at all.

I agree that at the time that Rheagar leaves ToJ for KL, and Hightower stays behind, the 3 KG cannot be there to guard the 3rd, at best, in line behind Rhaegar and Aegon (we know that even if Aerys named Viserys as heir, that only happened after Rhaegar died, so at that point, Jon would have been 3rd in line if a boy, and much further down the list if a girl, probably 5th behind Viserys and Rhaenys). So at that point in time, there was a different reason for the 3 KG to be at ToJ. I think 100% of people agree that the 3 KG are not at ToJ at that point in time out a duty to guard Jon due to him being in line for the throne. If that happened, it only would have happened after the 3 KG find out about the deaths of the royals.

 

So why did they stay at that point (and we know they stayed)? Some, like JCRB, suggest a shift in loyalty from Aerys to Rhaegar (I think that is what she is suggesting, not 100% sure). But even that rationale would not really explain the actions as Rhaegar needs the Targs to win the war just as much as Aerys if Rhaegar is going to rule. So I don't buy that explanation.

 

What makes sense to me is more or less what GRRM said in a well-know SSM -- if Rhaegar orders them to do something, they will do it. Now I would think there would be two caveats to that statement -- one is that Rhaegar's orders cannot directly contradict an order from Aerys and Rhaegar's orders cannot require the KG to abandon their central duties as KG. In this case, Aerys presumably knew Dayne and Whent were going with Rhaegar when they originally left, so obeying Rhaegar would not contradict any orders from Aerys. And as long as Aerys never ordered Hightower to return with Rhaegar, same thing there, especially if Rhaegar refused to return unless Hightower promised to stay at ToJ. And given that other KG were at KL to guard Aerys at the time, staying at ToJ for that period was not a direct contravention of their KG vows. Now once they learn of the deaths of the royals, the reasons to stay at ToJ would have to change (in my view, I know others disagree). But until that point in time, the reasons of the KG are fairly straight forward and already answered by GRRM.

So the question remains why did Rhaegar order them to stay at ToJ. I think the answer is in part that he did no want Aerys to find out where Lyanna was located. She was too late in her pregnancy to be moved. No other place was as assured of safety by means of secrecy. If the KG go back to KL, they will be required to tell Aerys the location of Lyanna. So they must stay at ToJ. Another reason also might be that Rhaegar thinks the baby is special and needs as much protection as can be gotten -- assuming Rhaegar thinks the baby, at a minimum, is a head of the dragon and perhaps even the prince that was promised.

 

I am not sure I understand your theory for what possible reason could have caused the 3 KG to stay at ToJ prior to the deaths of the royals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

UL,

 

you have to reserve judgment on what you find credible or not for the time being since we know too little about Hightower as of yet. People change, and if Ser Gerold really was a great guy, then he, more than anyone else, would have seen what a maniac Aerys was at that point. And Yandel doesn't count Ser Gerold among Aerys' cronies despite the fact that he sat on the Small Council and would have been one of the most influential men of the Realm for over twenty years. I'm not saying Hightower has to have changed his mind on Aerys, but he could have, and it would be a good explanation as to why he stayed at the tower since the Prince of Dragonstone would only have had authority over Hightower if the king gave it to him - which would be sort of counterproductive if Hightower's mission was to bring Rhaegar back to KL.

 

We are speculating and guessing, we don't - we cannot - write complete stories with the little information we have. Ned's dream putting words in Hightower's mouth doesn't mean he ever spoke them, and Ned believing something doesn't make it true. The idea that Lyanna explained Hightower's motivation to Ned is an ad hoc argument you have no evidence for. The dream indicates they did not speak all that long or about that much - talking about Hightower wouldn't make much sense if Lyanna was dying, right?

 

If Rhaegar and Aerys reconciled then Aerys wouldn't have used his son's wife as hostage against Ned and Robert. Not to mention that Aerys and Rhaegar intended to smash the rebels anyway, including Lyanna's brother. Lyanna being in 'Targaryen custody' didn't dissuade the rebels, so there is not necessarily a reason it would stop them if Aerys tortured or executed her. The good old hostage dilemma. It is a theory that Lyanna could have been used as a hostage, but that makes little to no sense if Rhaegar loved Lyanna and was married to her, and Aerys knew that, and was eventually grudgingly accepting it. You don't give your son command over your armies if you don't trust him or plan to murder his family.

 

We do not know why Aerys recalled Rhaegar. The war wasn't decided yet, and the Targaryens had the bigger army. The situation was far from desperate. Robert and his rebels were a serious threat, but they weren't winning the war until they won at the Trident. You tell and partially invent a narrative on the fly. It could turn out to be the way you describe, but that's far from certain. Even if the situation was as you describe the fact remains that Aerys was mad and paranoid, and had a history of mistrusting Rhaegar. Not talking about Lyanna would almost certainly have triggered his irrational suspicions.

The power dynamic there is clear. Aerys was the king, and Rhaegar his heir and subject. The idea that he could have been defiant while serving his father at the same time doesn't hold much water for me. What could Rhaegar do to threaten Aerys in return?

 

The best explanation, I think, for the whole thing is that Aerys wanted to reconcile with Rhaegar and recalled him for that reason, not just because of the war. Aerys' later mistrust of Rhaegar aside, there are hints that he actually loved his son throughout the whole time - which would also be the explanation why didn't listen to those cronies of his who wanted him to disinherit Rhaegar. Building a case that Aerys was forced to rely on Rhaegar may less sense. And perhaps Rhaegar taking up the duty of defeating Robert was part of the reconciliation over the Lyanna affair - Rhaegar and Lyanna began the whole mess, and now Rhaegar was going to end it at the Trident.

 

If Aerys was considering Lyanna a possible hostage he would most likely have ensured he could take her. All he would have needed to do is to send some agents after Hightower, and have some loyalists take her later on. That wouldn't have been that difficult. Building up Lyanna's location as the topmost secret of the entire Realm at this point simply doesn't make much sense to me.

 

My idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna had to go underground because they faced repercussions from Aerys' side is speculation. It may be wrong, of course. But there has to be some explanation for them going into hiding this long. The politically smart thing in any scenario would have been to act in a proactive way, showing everyone involved that you meant what you did there, and were prepared to suffer the consequences. Sticking the head in the sand without being forced to doesn't look like either Rhaegar or Lyanna at all.

 

My guess is Aerys grew mad after he learned about Lyanna's abduction and the subsequent marriage (if it took place and if he heard about it), interpreting this as proof for this Rhaegar-Rickard conspiracy he and his cronies came up with at Harrenhal after the coronation. George has put that whole thing in there very deliberately, and the line of thought of Aerys and his people at court was about a Stark-Rhaegar alliance, not about enmity there. This is why the Rebellion could break out in the first place. The court greatly misjudged what was actually happening. When Brandon arrived, Aerys did not believe that he and Rickard weren't in cahoots with Rhaegar - who may have already been forced underground by that point, or around the time Rickard arrived. I don't think Aerys would have executed all those people - very important people among them - if he just believed Brandon Stark had been wroth about the Lyanna abduction. Especially not an Aerys who did not believe the Starks had been angry about the coronation at Harrenhal.

 

But later on, as the Rebellion broke out, and things progressed, Aerys eventually learned what was really going on, and came to conclusion that Robert and Ned and the other rebels were as much after his head as they were after Rhaegar's. That would have let to his decision to reconcile with his son. Jon Connington and Myles Mooton may have played crucial roles there, too, advocating on Rhaegar (and Lyanna's) behalf after their return to court. Aerys would most likely never have appointed Connington his Hand had he not, by that time, made his peace with his son and heir, even in the latter's absence. Connington had always been Rhaegar's man, not Aerys'.

 

Hightower has no reason to think in the way of this 'not explicitly commanded to return' or 'some other KG are enough protection'. He is the Lord Commander, and is ultimately only bound to obey the king and people speaking with the King's Voice. The Prince of Dragonstone does not qualify as such. This means that Hightower remained at the tower because he wanted to obey Rhaegar on that matter. The best explanation is that he did not want to return to continue to serve Aerys directly.

 

There are other possible scenarios of course - Rhaegar refusing to return unless Hightower promises to stay in his stead (only workable if Hightower isn't able to overpower Rhaegar and drag him back to KL against his will - which he should be able to do even if he came alone since Arthur and Oswell have to obey his commands because he is their Lord Commander), Aerys naming Rhaegar Lord Protector of the Realm - that would be part of the reconciliation idea, but even then the king's commands would supersede those of the Lord Protector. Hightower could just lie that he had royal commands to return to KL with Rhaegar if he wanted to.

 

The effect of the birth of Lyanna's child on the whole thing is actually minimal since it would have been only at the very end of the long time the knights spend as Lyanna's protectors. And I really think the knights would have acted exactly the same - using even the same words in Ned's dream later on - if Lyanna had given birth to a daughter or a stillborn child. They would have looked utterly stupid if they had been only willing to die for their infant king, but not for an infant princess, or for honoring the last command of their late prince.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A maiden having a child out of wedlock is a great dishonor to herself and her house during medieval times.  The man responsible would be persecuted, if he is revealed by the maiden.  Nothing can redeem such a man in the eyes of the house, except a marriage.  It does not matter under what circumstances the congress occurred.  It is nothing that Ned ever reflects on, thus there was no dishonor done to Lyanna or House Stark.  They were legally married.  Further, the dream only makes sense to Ned if they are legally married and Jon is the heir to the Iron Throne.  finis

 

Comparing the popularity of Maegor the Cruel to Aerys, it is likely that Aerys would be more popular.  At least we know the people cheered for him, although they cheered twice as loud for Tywin.  Then Rhaegar gets redoubles Tywin's popularity.  Making any comparison between how Rhaegar's family would be received to how Maegor the Cruel's family was received falls utterly FLAT. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMHO, KG stayed in TOJ because Rhaegar ordered them to stay to guard Lyanna, an important woman with an more important child.  

KG had to obey his order since he is crown prince (Aerys is not around to give order). 

Order of a dead prince is still a order. They can only be released until it is fulfilled or failed. 

Loyaliy would not change due to Rhaegar's death. See what Brianne and JonCon did for dead Renly and dead Rhaegar, they do not have certain order or vow to do what they did. 

They needed to guard Lyanna until her death or until she could be removed to somewhere else. If they abandoned her, then they broke their vow.

 

I bet GRRM was asked hundreds of times about KG in TOJ. People kept saying Jon is the king of TOJ because KG was there in TOJ. 

Then he gave the SSM that they were ordered by Rhaegar to stay. They can not say "I do not like it!" (Hightower probably did not like it). 

Then he approved APP that they were ordered by Rhaegar to guard Lyanna. 

Then he added that "Viserys as new heir" in World Book to confirm there is no such thing like King Jon of TOJ. 

Then he wrote in the duty of KG that "they were sometimes told to guard mistress and bastard" (please show me one example in history a KG guarded a mistress and bastard. It was introduced for a reason, right? :))

Then he also wrote that obedience is part of KG's vow.

Then he told us do not take words too literally in Ned's dream. 

Then he told us Jiame and even pycelle (?) was wondering who would be king, Aegon or Viserys. (If Viserys can possibly claim throne over Aegon, then I am sure he can possibly claim it over Jon. We were told a legal baby son was skipped by grand council too, due to his young age and name. )

(not in a timely order)

 

How straightforward you expect GRRM to be on this question?

Hey, you guys just think too much. KG did not stay there because Jon is King Jon of TOJ, OK?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did propose a political scenario that puts Rhaegar with Lyanna and away from everything for a long enough period of time for Jon to be conceived. It also wouldn't entirely prohibit Rhaegar and Lyanma from getting secretly wed.

I was told it makes no sense at all.

Edit- Robb Stark married a woman he dishonored after sleeping with her. Same could have happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna

 

I agree with both. And it does make sense. Even with the involvement of the KG and all. In fact, that explains them there. :dunno:

 

IF you have a theory that doesn't answer all the questions and another one that does... wouldn't be irrational keep insisting on the first one? :dunno:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A maiden having a child out of wedlock is a great dishonor to herself and her house during medieval times.  The man responsible would be persecuted, if he is revealed by the maiden.  Nothing can redeem such a man in the eyes of the house, except a marriage.  It does not matter under what circumstances the congress occurred.  It is nothing that Ned ever reflects on, thus there was no dishonor done to Lyanna or House Stark.  They were legally married.  Further, the dream only makes sense to Ned if they are legally married and Jon is the heir to the Iron Throne.  finis

 

Comparing the popularity of Maegor the Cruel to Aerys, it is likely that Aerys would be more popular.  At least we know the people cheered for him, although they cheered twice as loud for Tywin.  Then Rhaegar gets redoubles Tywin's popularity.  Making any comparison between how Rhaegar's family would be received to how Maegor the Cruel's family was received falls utterly FLAT. 

 

You are not serious, right?

Rhaegar is royal crown prince, not a regular man. 

It is honestly quite normal for them to take maids as their mistresses.

Brandon was mad because he thought Rhaegar abducted Lyanna by force and/or raped.

If he knew that they ran off willingly for love, he would not be so angry. 

 

We have 9 mistresses of Aegon IV who mostly highborn ladies (some of them were taken when he was a prince just like Rhaegar). He even had a baby with a queen and Targ princess out of wedlock when he was a prince. We have father of mistress as King's hand. We have House Blackwood made a statue for Missy. Which house asked a royal marriage for the "redemption"?

 

No matter how you wish R and L got married and how you hold it as truth in your mind, It is not a fact unless you are GRRM. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did propose a political scenario that puts Rhaegar with Lyanna and away from everything for a long enough period of time for Jon to be conceived. It also wouldn't entirely prohibit Rhaegar and Lyanma from getting secretly wed.

I was told it makes no sense at all.

Edit- Robb Stark married a woman he dishonored after sleeping with her. Same could have happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna

 

Robb was a single man. 

Rhaegar is not qualified for this and he knew it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I agree with both. And it does make sense. Even with the involvement of the KG and all. In fact, that explains them there. :dunno:

 

IF you have a theory that doesn't answer all the questions and another one that does... wouldn't be irrational keep insisting on the first one? :dunno:

What theory fails to answer all the question?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Starks seem to be especially obsessed with their honor, which would include the maidenheads of their women. Lyanna's affair with Rhaegar wouldn't have prevented her father and brothers to defend her honor and punish her for being a slut especially since it shamed both the Starks and the Baratheons due to the marriage contract. Rickard may have seen opportunity there despite the shame since he had those southron ambitions, but Brandon was too stupid for that.

 

Even so, not all nobles were happy with kings making their daughters or sisters their whores. And it is a difference if a father or brother gives his daughter or sister to the king willingly, or whether a prince thinks he just can take her by force.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...