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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.155

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Yeah that's right I remember this, we were doing the inverse parallel of the tower of Joy and Hardin Tower on R+L=J, and you pointed out that parallel, and told me about it. You had a right up on the linguistics, I can't remember which thread it was on. I actually started to do a contribution write up for your theory, did I do it? I should look that up and see if I did it. I remember some notes and research. Yeah that Maggy and tower of Joy dream was really interesting. Can you post a link to it JStar, I feel like I am forgetting something.

 

This one? http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102362-neds-toj-dream-more-than-we-thought/

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You're definitely not the only one. I tend to devour a book at first reading and then I go back and re-read and pick up on the clues. 

 

Same here, it's only after coming to these forums that I realise how much I missed from the novels  :cool4:

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1) Possibly the Tower of Joy was not a perfect location, but the best place they found to hide. And according a SSM during the Robert Rebellion many battles, sieges and skirmishes happened through the Seven Kindgons, with exception of Dorne, so hiding in Dorne would be a safe choice. And we don't know if Doran or the dornish lords knew that she was in Dorne.
 
2) Good question, unhappily we haven't the answer yet.
 
3) They were protecting his wife and son, the tower of Joy was just a watch tower, so he needed the Kingsguard there to protect Lyanna. The place was exposed to ravers, for example and one more time, they were the best alternative in hands, not the best or ideal one.
 
4) May be there was some servant there, many believe that Wylla was there. Some think was Arthur Dayne, but for all we know, he was slain in the fight.
 
5) Barbrey Dustin never got her husband remains back, so probably the same happened with  the others. Ned and Howland had nine bodies with them, Lyanna, their five companions and three kingsguard. They couldn't go away with nine bodies, so the most practical way was put the bodies in a pyre, burn the flesh  and pick the bones. Did they have the way to burn nine bodies? May be not, so the best way was bury the corpses using the tower's stones. The only body burned was Lyanna's body, because she was Ned' sister and he would have to present her bones to Robert.



Rhaegar told some people around King's landing, or likely a person like Vary's knew where R and J and the 3KG were and where its location was. You don't think Ned and Later Robert started asking about Lyanna right away? And do you not think that if the brand new King Robert asked the court where Lyanna freaking Stark was that anyone who knew would jump at the chance to share with his new King?

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Rhaegar told some people around King's landing, or likely a person like Vary's knew where R and J and the 3KG were and where its location was. You don't think Ned and Later Robert started asking about Lyanna right away? And do you not think that if the brand new King Robert asked the court where Lyanna freaking Stark was that anyone who knew would jump at the chance to share with his new King?

I really don't see Rhaegar revealing the location of an invaluable hostage guarded by three KG who would have had to obey an order from Aerys if he knew where to send it, meaning that Varys didn't know either, or else he would have told Aerys. Telling one single person who could be trusted to inform Ned and only Ned should something happen to Rhaegar, yes. 

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We don't know how Hightower found Rhaegar in the first place. Varys may have told him where Rhaegar was because he found out. Then Aerys would have known, too, but did not care to sent troops there.

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I really don't see Rhaegar revealing the location of an invaluable hostage guarded by three KG who would have had to obey an order from Aerys if he knew where to send it, meaning that Varys didn't know either, or else he would have told Aerys. Telling one single person who could be trusted to inform Ned and only Ned should something happen to Rhaegar, yes. 

Absolutely, Rhaegar is confident that he will return with a victory, but prudence dictates that Rhaegar would make arrangements to cover an unforeseen event.  Brandon's squire, Ethan Glover was held by Aerys, yet ends up in Ned's party.  Ethan might be the type of trustworthy courier that Rhaegar would select.   

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Absolutely, Rhaegar is confident that he will return with a victory, but prudence dictates that Rhaegar would make arrangements to cover an unforeseen event.  Brandon's squire, Ethan Glover was held by Aerys, yet ends up in Ned's party.  Ethan might be the type of trustworthy courier that Rhaegar would select.   

*quit reading my mind :P

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Prudence dictates nothing in that case. If Rhaegar wanted to keep Lyanna's location a secret (which is just a baseless assumption since we have no textual evidence for that) he would have talked to no one, not to Ethan Glover. The Kingsguard was with Lyanna, nobody else needed to know anything about their location, and they would have known what to do in case Rhaegar would lose.

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LV--

 

While I admit that the text does not include definitive proof, there certainly is some textual evidence that Rhaegar intended to keep Lyanna's location a secret. So that conclusion is not a "baseless assumption" but merely a theory based on fairly good textual support. For example, the readers are told that before Rhaegar returned to KL, the location was a secret as certainly Ned's family had no idea where to find Lyanna. And while the app is only semi-canon, it states that Aerys sent Hightower to find Rhaegar (he does not need to be found if his location is known). Upon Rhaegar's return to KL, there is no reason to think all of a sudden he started talking about the "secret" location.

 

And the clue regarding Ethan is simply that Ethan was in a cell when Rhaegar returned to KL -- and then is with Ned later when Ethan likely would not be in great physical shape. So one possible explanation is that Ethan insisted on going and was allowed to go because he was the one who had been told the location. As to why Rhaegar would tell Ethan -- someone needed to be able to retrieve the 3 KG and Lyanna if Rhaegar was killed. Ethan being a Stark loyalist seems like someone Rhaegar could entrust with that information. But I admit there are other possible candidates for who told Ned the location.

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It is obvious that it was a secret, as three KG would be worthless against anyone who knew where to find them. Three KG couldn't even protect against just seven men, let alone the forces which would have been sent if it weren't a secret. Obviously Hightower and Ned found out somehow, but the idea that it otherwise wasn't a secret is what is baseless.

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I was just reading the description of the typical Targ hair on the the wiki. It says that they usually have hair color of silver gold or platinum white. Has anyone made the connection to ghost being a clue to Jon being a Targ. If R + L = J is true, we have our first hint in the opening chapter of the series when they find the direwolves. 

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It is obvious that it was a secret, as three KG would be worthless against anyone who knew where to find them. Three KG couldn't even protect against just seven men, let alone the forces which would have been sent if it weren't a secret. Obviously Hightower and Ned found out somehow, but the idea that it otherwise wasn't a secret is what is baseless.

 

Unless it wasn't a secret. Maybe Aerys knew all along. :leaving:

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I was just reading the description of the typical Targ hair on the the wiki. It says that they usually have hair color of silver gold or platinum white. Has anyone made the connection to ghost being a clue to Jon being a Targ. If R + L = J is true, we have our first hint in the opening chapter of the series when they find the direwolves. 

It is. His dad has silver hair and was called silver prince.
Although you probably can not have more colors available for a wolf except normal grey/black and this white. Red? Yellow? Blue? Not possible.

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It is. His dad has silver hair and was called silver prince.
Although you probably can not more colors available for a wolf except normal grey/black and this white. Red? Yellow? Blue? Not possible

I do think it is true. Too much evidence to point to. I was just seeing if anyone made the connection. I know that Rhaegar's hair is silver, but having Ghost's hair be Silver may have been too obvious. 

If dogs can be Red, Yellow, and Blue, why not the Direwolves?

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I do think it is true. Too much evidence to point to. I was just seeing if anyone made the connection. I know that Rhaegar's hair is silver, but having Ghost's hair be Silver may have been too obvious. 
If dogs can be Red, Yellow, and Blue, why not the Direwolves?


I am not sure, but red yellow blue wolves sound quite rare.....

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I am not sure, but red yellow blue wolves sound quite rare.....

I have a blue dachshund (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=598719373481279&set=a.545626962123854.125724.100000296658921&type=3&theater), they are not especially rare.  Blue is caused by an otherwise black dog having two dilute genes.  Weimaraners all carry two dilute genes resulting in Blue or Fawn coloration.  Fawn is caused by a an otherwise Liver dog carrying two dilute genes.  Yellow is usually called golden.  Red is usually called Tan or Liver.  The same genetics are present in wolves as in dogs. 

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I have a blue dachshund, they are not especially rare.  Blue is caused by an otherwise black dog having two dilute genes.  Weimaraners all carry two dilute genes resulting in Blue or Fawn coloration.  Fawn is caused by a an otherwise Liver dog carrying two dilute genes.  Yellow is usually called golden.  Red is usually called Tan or Liver.  The same genetics are present in wolves as in dogs. 


All right. But I think white wolf sounds better on the ice lands.

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I know the Ethan Glover theory, but that's just speculation, and bad one at that. Why on earth would Rhaegar talk to Ethan of all people, and not to an actual friend of him? Why confide in some guy his father may actually still execute or torture for information?

 

I agree that there are hints that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't want to found prior to Hightower reaching them, but afterwards we really have no clue. We don't know why Lyanna remained at the tower, and we also don't know why Rhaegar assigned the KG to her. And we also don't know if Rhaegar felt the need to keep his relationship/marriage a secret from his father and the court. That would depend on whether he felt confident with himself and his position or not - and the text actually indicates the former.

 

We also don't know how Hightower found Rhaegar - that will possibly be discussed in some future book, and is too important a plot point to be revealed in the App. I'd be very surprised if Ran and Linda knew anything about that. But one assumes that Hightower had preliminary information where to look - and that information may have come from Varys' agents. Or, of course, from Mooton and Connington who may have known and revealed to Aerys before where they left Rhaegar and Lyanna, and where they were headed (presumably). With Hightower having no clue at all the explanation as to why he went down south wouldn't make any sense - unless we go with he made a good guess.

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