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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.155

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I know the Ethan Glover theory, but that's just speculation, and bad one at that. Why on earth would Rhaegar talk to Ethan of all people, and not to an actual friend of him? Why confide in some guy his father may actually still execute or torture for information?

 

I agree that there are hints that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't want to found prior to Hightower reaching them, but afterwards we really have no clue. We don't know why Lyanna remained at the tower, and we also don't know why Rhaegar assigned the KG to her. And we also don't know if Rhaegar felt the need to keep his relationship/marriage a secret from his father and the court. That would depend on whether he felt confident with himself and his position or not - and the text actually indicates the former.

 

We also don't know how Hightower found Rhaegar - that will possibly be discussed in some future book, and is too important a plot point to be revealed in the App. I'd be very surprised if Ran and Linda knew anything about that. But one assumes that Hightower had preliminary information where to look - and that information may have come from Varys' agents. Or, of course, from Mooton and Connington who may have known and revealed to Aerys before where they left Rhaegar and Lyanna, and where they were headed (presumably). With Hightower having no clue at all the explanation as to why he went down south wouldn't make any sense - unless we go with 'he made a good guess'.

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I know the Ethan Glover theory, but that's just speculation, and bad one at that. Why on earth would Rhaegar talk to Ethan of all people, and not to an actual friend of him? Why confide in some guy his father may actually still execute or torture for information?
 
I agree that there are hints that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't want to found prior to Hightower reaching them, but afterwards we really have no clue. We don't know why Lyanna remained at the tower, and we also don't know why Rhaegar assigned the KG to her. And we also don't know if Rhaegar felt the need to keep his relationship/marriage a secret from his father and the court. That would depend on whether he felt confident with himself and his position or not - and the text actually indicates the former.
 
We also don't know how Hightower found Rhaegar - that will possibly be discussed in some future book, and is too important a plot point to be revealed in the App. I'd be very surprised if Ran and Linda knew anything about that. But one assumes that Hightower had preliminary information where to look - and that information may have come from Varys' agents. Or, of course, from Mooton and Connington who may have known and revealed to Aerys before where they left Rhaegar and Lyanna, and where they were headed (presumably). With Hightower having no clue at all the explanation as to why he went down south wouldn't make any sense - unless we go with 'he made a good guess'.


Elia told them!
You know what? Hightower? That northern whore hid in my land with my husband!
House fowler of skyreach sent me the raven! Their patrol in the pass found them!
Go get them and ask him back to take care of his mess!

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I know the Ethan Glover theory, but that's just speculation, and bad one at that. Why on earth would Rhaegar talk to Ethan of all people, and not to an actual friend of him? Why confide in some guy his father may actually still execute or torture for information?

It is speculation that Aerys had not forgotten about Ethan, and would consider torturing him during the war.  There must be a reason that a prisoner for more than a year accompanies Ned to the tower.  Is there a better reason than leading Ned to Lyanna's location? 

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ML,

 

we already had that discussion. Where is your proof that he even was 'a prisoner for a year'? Where is your proof that he wasn't in good shape even if he was kept a prisoner? Where is your proof that he actually knew where Lyanna was? Ned may have just taken him along because they were friends and he was in a good enough shape to accompany Ned's gang.

 

I agree that there is an interesting story to Ethan Glover, but being 'the source' is the most outlandish possibility there. Ned could have had lots of different sources if you don't insist the location was the utmost secret.

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It is speculation that Aerys had not forgotten about Ethan, and would consider torturing him during the war.  There must be a reason that a prisoner for more than a year accompanies Ned to the tower.  Is there a better reason than leading Ned to Lyanna's location? 

Besides, if Rhaegar indeed planned a contigency for his own death, Lyanna's brother was the only person who could be trusted, and Ethan would have been just the messenger that Ned would have trusted himself and that, unlike anyone frlom the Targ side, would gain access to Ned without suspicion.

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I do think it is true. Too much evidence to point to. I was just seeing if anyone made the connection. I know that Rhaegar's hair is silver, but having Ghost's hair be Silver may have been too obvious. 

If dogs can be Red, Yellow, and Blue, why not the Direwolves?

Because if Ghost was any color other than he is, he would not make you think Old Gods/Bloodraven, he looks like the trees, he looks like Bloodraven, Bloodraven is a tree. Bloodraven not Blueraven, and Bloodraven happens to be an Albino inspired a bit by Elric, more than a bit. Just say no to blue Elric.

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Because if Ghost was any color other than he is, he would not make you think Old Gods/Bloodraven, he looks like the trees, he looks like Bloodraven, Bloodraven is a tree. Bloodraven not Blueraven, and Bloodraven happens to be an Albino inspired a bit by Elric, more than a bit. Just say no to blue Elric.

 

Don't forget the kingsguard cloaks that would have to be blue as well, if Ghost was blue. That'd simply have been too expensive and the cost cuts set in...

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Will you feel cheated if it turns out that the actual ToJ events were significantly different than Ned's dream?

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Will you feel cheated if it turns out that the actual ToJ events were significantly different than Ned's dream?

 

Surprised. Not sure about cheated or not. I expect if GRRM does that he'll do it well enough to avoid any feel of having cheated, but I won;t know that until it happens, if it happens.

 

All he said was that our dreams are not always literal.

There are plenty of clearly non-literal elements in the (old, as it was in life) dream, such as the scream, the wraiths, the blood streaked sky etc that satisfy that. The current fad of thinking that the whole dream sequence is effectively metaphorical, real only in meaning, not detail, is simply unnecessary and I don't think it fits within GRRMs style even a little bit.

 

In the end though, its not all that important. By the time we find out, I'm sure we will also have new data to revise our theories by, probably even some of those theories explicitly proven way way or another.

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The idea that Rhaegar would entrust Ethan Glover with anything is just ridiculous. He entrusted Lyanna to the care of the Kingsguard. Why the hell would he want her brother to know? Why would he made preparation for the very special case of his own death and Robert's victory? Couldn't he have died himself while his army was victorious? Couldn't he and Ned Stark both die in the battle?

 

If Rhaegar wanted to make contingency plans he would have entrusted them to a person he, personally, could trust. A confidante he left in KL to act after the news of his demise reached KL. He could then have taken steps long before the rebels arrived at the city. But that apparently did not happen.

He would not have told some friend of Ned Stark's who may or not live long enough to inform him about that. Not to mention that the man himself may have been dead by then. The idea that Rhaegar Targaryen believed that Ned Stark would take care of his son would be a little bit far-fetched, too. I mean, Lyanna knew Ned, she may have believed he would do that. But Ned Stark? Not necessarily. Especially in light of the Kingsguard blocking the entrance/attacking Ned. Obviously the story that Rhaegar had sent them via Ethan Glover wasn't believed, right?

 

Glover's presence at the tower of joy proves nothing besides the fact that he wasn't killed. Anything else is bad speculation close to fan fiction.

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Will you feel cheated if it turns out that the actual ToJ events were significantly different than Ned's dream?

Define "significantly".

 

No, I wouldn't feel cheated if there was no epic dialogue as it is apparently a literary device, but I do expect that there was a talk and a fight and that the conduct of both parties was honour-driven, and I'd feel cheated if it wasn't so.

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Especially in light of the Kingsguard blocking the entrance/attacking Ned. Obviously the story that Rhaegar had sent them via Ethan Glover wasn't believed, right?

At the time when Rhaegar presumably tasked Ethan, Jon was not an heir to the throne and Aegon and Rhaenys were still alive and well, and so was Aerys. The KG would NOT feel compelled to fight Ned to the death.

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Define "significantly".

 

No, I wouldn't feel cheated if there was no epic dialogue as it is apparently a literary device, but I do expect that there was a talk and a fight and that the conduct of both parties was honour-driven, and I'd feel cheated if it wasn't so.

 

At the time when Rhaegar presumably tasked Ethan, Jon was not an heir to the throne and Aegon and Rhaenys were still alive and well, and so was Aerys. The KG would NOT feel compelled to fight Ned to the death.

:agree: I agree with both of these sentiments.

 

As to the dream sequence -- the point to me has always been that the information needs to be consistent with Ned's understanding of the truth of why the KG were at ToJ. I certainly am OK with finding out that the conversation was not quite so formalistic, but if it turns out that what happened there is completely inconsistent with the content of the conversation, then I think it would be quite "cheap" of GRRM to lead the readers to believe that the KG were there for one reason and then have it turn out that what happened was completely different and completely inconsistent with the conversation. But it was just a dream so it is ok? No, I would not think such a literary ploy was perfectly acceptable -- I would find it unnecessarily manipulative and unduly misleading. But if the conversation itself never happened, that would not bother me at all. The key is that the contents of the conversation must be consistent with the actual facts of what occurred.

 

I also agree that Rhaegar would not have assumed that if he died that Aerys and Aegon would die as well. So while Ethan is only one plausible source for how Ned found out where to find Lyanna (Ashara also seems like a plausible candidate), Rhaegar would have had reason to want Ned to find out where to find Lyanna if Rhaegar died at the Trident, and Rhaegar might have considered Ethan to be the best candidate to keep this secret if Ned's side won the war and someone needed to go to ToJ to notify the KG of the outcome of the war and get Lyanna to safety at that point. But I only consider Ethan one plausible candidate -- not the only plausible candidate.

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They weren't protecting their king.

 

Rhaegar's command would have been Rhaegar's command. You cannot wiggle out of that. Any idea about their conclusion about the succession in the wake of the Sack (which would have been treasonous anyway, considering the fact that Viserys III was Aerys' rightful heir at that point) would have been in addition to Rhaegar's original commands. The commands that glued them to Lyanna and the tower in the first place. He gave them commands stipulating that they protect Lyanna from, presumably, anyone. They thinking that her child was 'king' now would have added another layer, but the original orders would still stand if they actually were loyal and all.

 

Thus they wouldn't have cared a rat's ass about Glover's outlandish claims that they were 'sent here' by Rhaegar even if they had considered Lyanna's child just a prince or a royal bastard. And if Glover had had a letter written and signed by Rhaegar - the only way how Glover could prove that Rhaegar had really talked to him and 'sent him' - then this fact should actually have prevented the fight between Ned's guys and the Kingsguard. After all, if Rhaegar Targaryen believes his son and wife would be safe in Eddard Stark's care then who is the Kingsguard to challenge or oppose that decision? That is not their call to make.

 

But Jon Snow clearly was not king to the Kingsguard at that point. He could have been a claimant or a future pretender but nothing else. We see how this goes with Prince Aegon right now. He and his followers could have crowned and proclaimed him king years ago, but they did not. If they did not - people who actually plot and plan to sit him on the Iron Throne - then there is really no reason to assume that the knights of the tower would have done so. Especially not since we don't have any evidence that the knights at the tower ever actually thought or intended to seat Lyanna's son on the Iron Throne one day. We don't even know if they had any plans at all.

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 But I only consider Ethan one plausible candidate -- not the only plausible candidate.

Oh, I fully agree. Just as this explanation of Ethan's presence at ToJ is one plausible explanation but not the only.

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They weren't protecting their king.

For Ned to have such a high opinion of them, including one of them above all others, they must be fulfilling their duty, their vow.  Ned's idea of the Kingsguard vow is:  . . . a vow to protect his king's life with his own.  Notice the period?  Or, maybe you have some special knowledge that Ned knew of some other meaning for vow, that Gerold Hightower gives as the reason that they will not allow Ned passage.  If you do, please share it. 

 

ETA:  I would feel that GRRM had failed to live up to his reputation if he substantially changes the plot that he conveyed in the dream.  Personally I don't give a rat's arse how the story plays out, but time waiting and reading would have been wasted if the series doesn't live up to the hype. 

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For Ned to have such a high opinion of them, including one of them above all others, they must be fulfilling their duty, their vow.  Ned's idea of the Kingsguard vow is:  . . . a vow to protect his king's life with his own.  Notice the period?  Or, maybe you have some special knowledge that Ned knew of some other meaning for vow, that Gerold Hightower gives as the reason that they will not allow Ned passage.  If you do, please share it. 

 

ETA:  I would feel that GRRM had failed to live up to his reputation if he substantially changes the plot that he conveyed in the dream.  Personally I don't give a rat's arse how the story plays out, but time waiting and reading would have been wasted if the series doesn't live up to the hype. 

Oh, come on, it is known that Tower of Joy was full of hot nekkid Dornishwives and the KG couldn't get in so as not to break their chastity vows.

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For Ned to have such a high opinion of them, including one of them above all others, they must be fulfilling their duty, their vow.  Ned's idea of the Kingsguard vow is:  . . . a vow to protect his king's life with his own.  Notice the period?  Or, maybe you have some special knowledge that Ned knew of some other meaning for vow, that Gerold Hightower gives as the reason that they will not allow Ned passage.  If you do, please share it. 

Arthur and whent was in toj for like one year.
Were they protecting their king?
Hightower joined them long before the death of rhaegar and areys.
Was he protecting his king?
Do they have a 4d ultrasonic to know if this baby is a girl or a stillborn?
They followed the order they received.
They swore to obey.
They waited for the birth to take the baby to join rhaella in DS and protect whoever aerys decided to be king.
Is this enough for you?
You just want to prove us rhaegar was married to lyanna. And sorry, many people do not buy it.

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Besides, if Rhaegar indeed planned a contigency for his own death, Lyanna's brother was the only person who could be trusted, and Ethan would have been just the messenger that Ned would have trusted himself and that, unlike anyone frlom the Targ side, would gain access to Ned without suspicion.

Agreed, there are many reasons that this seems to create a role for Ethan in Ned's party.  These are all just little hints, but nothing really stands against the idea.  There could have been other methods for Ned to find Lyanna, but all of them are just speculation, with no support at all.  There must be a reason that Ethan is with Ned, and we haven't been given one, yet . . .

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Oh, come on, it is known that Tower of Joy was full of hot nekkid Dornishwives and the KG couldn't get in so as not to break their chastity vows.

Cripes, you're right, they are protecting Ned from all of those hottie Dornish-girls!  Especially since they know that Ned will dishonor himself before gods and men, if he; as a married man; enters the tower. 

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