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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.155

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No, that is not the only thing, look at the dialog, the Kingsguard are dying to protect the king, who is NOT Viserys.

 

Who knows. Could be they had no idea what the hell to do. Never before in the history of the Kingsguard did their monarch get completely overthrown by a non-Targaryen.

 

It's certainly possible that they were protecting the King, but remember it's the heir of the guy who got slain by the guy who claimed the Iron Throne. It's the seed of a union that was clearly not made public and in direct violation of the old gods and the new. And lastly it's the result of (in this case) a passion that fueled a rebellion that resulted in extreme loss of life. Good. Luck. Rallying people to his cause. If one is to believe they'd be stubborn enough to disregard the fact that no one will flock to Jon's banner, then it's not a far cry to believe they'd be stubborn enough to still support dead king Aerys.

 

Could be, with the Targaryen dynasty overthrown, they were just continuing to carry out a royal command from their fallen King. Hightowers words (from the at least SOMEWHAT unreliable fever dream) are that Aerys would still be on the Iron Throne if he guarded him. I believe he actually says an all inclusive "we," which is even more damning. He's speaking for all of them. "We swore a vow" Arthur Dayne. Sounds to me like they might still simply be loyal to Aerys.

 

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I am sure Rhaegar would like to pick up the polygamy tradition for Lyanna. 

All men wanted to do that, you know, enjoy multiple wives and even a harem with many wives. 

The problem is that he would not get a permission to do that.

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I am sure Rhaegar would like to pick up the polygamy tradition for Lyanna. 

All men wanted to do that, you know, enjoy multiple wives and even a harem with many wives. 

The problem is that he would not get a permission to do that.

So he acted without it.

 

Once again: what is the literary purpose of introducing the Targ polygamy into the story?

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And what is the minimum amount of time two people need to spend together in order to fall in love?

 

Poets would have you believe it can happen at first sight, but cmon.... For GRRM to make these two fall in love after one tourney is somewhat absurd.

 

IMO.

 

 

Not getting your point here. This is not about comparing Rhaegar and Aegon but about the reason why the Targ polygamy is included in the story at all. It has been suggested to Dany, but she doesn't really need, or desire, multiple spouses. Now, which Targ in the story would have the need as well as desire to marry a second wife? Rhaegar. So as not to set aside the wife he doesn't love but respects, and not dishonour the woman he loves by bedding her without marriage and fathering a bastard on her.

 
 

1) You don't know how much time they spent together

2) You don't need much time for infatuation (and love may have come later)

 

I think it's a possible red herring and obvious fantasy trope for them to have "fallen in love at one tourney"

 

And that was the only time they hung out. Do I know the exact length of time the tourney ran? No. Do you? Maybe. It seems like one's gotta force a lotta stuff to make this love story work.

 

There's a ton of incestual stuff that's included in the story. I don't know how much merit it will all have in the end. The Targaryens keeping the bloodlines pure and Aegon's known affection for Rhaenys are the reason why he had two wives. It doesn't have to foreshadow Rhaegar having two is all I'm saying. The Targaryen's are a strange and foreign people from a strange and foreign land.

 

I can sit here and cast doubt on these theories all day btw. I know y'all have your little clutch of Jon is King truthers who insist this is canon and will try and counter all I say, eventually I'll go away and you'll all :grouphug: and say we showed him but it's whatever. I got counters for all the doubt you cast on my theories too.

 

But I do think it's funny that MtnLion, who I've always found to be disrespectful and elitist towards those who disagree, has trotted out probably the weakest evidence in defense of the completely non-confirmed theory that Jon Snow was, is, and possibly will be King of the 7 Kingdoms.

 

 

 

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So he acted without it.

 

Once again: what is the literary purpose of introducing the Targ polygamy into the story?

 

Well, he can surely act on it, but it would not be recognized anyway. So it is still invalid and Jon is still a bastard.

Marriage is different from having sex or child which can serve as facts. It needs to be socially recognized to be valid. 

 

Polygamy was introduced into the old history to increase the diversity and also provide the similarity to the real history (ancient Egypt stuff). 

This does not mean it would happen in the current series for case like Rhaegar in Westeros (if you do not count Craster). 

Honestly polygamy is really not a big deal, it happens as a religious tradition in US even now (Mormon? by the way, is it legal in Utah? Do they recognize this for all the rights and benefits of a legal spouse? can somebody shed some light on it?), but you will not see it happen to some US president or congressmen who are as important as Rhaeagar.  

 

It will cause problem and confusion for the current story line, like why King Robb can not simply fix his problem by marrying two wives? why Aegon Targaryen had to keep himself single to marry Dany? Why people had to consider to set aside Cersei for Robert to marry another queen? Even for Dany, who has been clearly told by Jorah about polygamy marriage, this would not happen for sure. She would not end up with two husbands at the same time. 

Polygamy was not painted as an option for the current time in the series.  

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I think it's a possible red herring and obvious fantasy trope for them to have "fallen in love at one tourney"

Can you remind me about some fantasy works where they fall in love at a tourney? All I can recall is Jorah, whose unexpected victory suspiciously reminds of Rhaegar's, but whose affection for Lynesse was apparently one-sided.

 

And that was the only time they hung out. Do I know the exact length of time the tourney ran? No. Do you? Maybe. It seems like one's gotta force a lotta stuff to make this love story work.

And you know that how? We have no idea what happened in between the tourney and the abduction. Plus, there is also the option of the abduction being staged/Lyanna running away merely to get away from Robert, and love developing only afterwards. Too many unknowns here.

 

 

There's a ton of incestual stuff that's included in the story. I don't know how much merit it will all have in the end. The Targaryens keeping the bloodlines pure and Aegon's known affection for Rhaenys are the reason why he had two wives. It doesn't have to foreshadow Rhaegar having two is all I'm saying. The Targaryen's are a strange and foreign people from a strange and foreign land.

Sure it doesn't have to foreshadow anything but this still doesn't answer my question: why is it here, and why does there happen to be a couple which could make very good use of it? Making it merely a sign of the Targs' strangeness is redundant - the incest issue makes this clear enough, and on the other hand, the polygamy aspect is not played enough to really enhance the strangeness. And, hey! the way it has been presented - something rarely used but possible - again fits with the needs of our couple.

 

 

I can sit here and cast doubt on these theories all day btw. I know y'all have your little clutch of Jon is King truthers who insist this is canon and will try and counter all I say, eventually I'll go away and you'll all  :grouphug: and say we showed him but it's whatever. I got counters for all the doubt you cast on my theories too.

That was undeserved and unkind, Your Grace. I never had such intentions towards you and have always discussed with you in good faith so far.

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I can sit here and cast doubt on these theories all day btw. I know y'all have your little clutch of Jon is King truthers who insist this is canon and will try and counter all I say, eventually I'll go away and you'll all :grouphug: and say we showed him but it's whatever. I got counters for all the doubt you cast on my theories too.

 

Countering us in hope to doubt is pointless, you should try to counter Martin, who is leading the readers these thoughts due to layers of clues and hints of Jon having royal importance, if not the king. 

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Can you remind me about some fantasy works where they fall in love at a tourney? All I can recall is Jorah, whose unexpected victory suspiciously reminds of Rhaegar's, but whose affection for Lynesse was apparently one-sided.

 
 

And you know that how? We have no idea what happened in between the tourney and the abduction. Plus, there is also the option of the abduction being staged/Lyanna running away merely to get away from Robert, and love developing only afterwards. Too many unknowns here.

 

 
 

Sure it doesn't have to foreshadow anything but this still doesn't answer my question: why is it here, and why does there happen to be a couple which could make very good use of it? Making it merely a sign of the Targs' strangeness is redundant - the incest issue makes this clear enough, and on the other hand, the polygamy aspect is not played enough to really enhance the strangeness. And, hey! the way it has been presented - something rarely used but possible - again fits with the needs of our couple.

 

 
 

That was undeserved and unkind, Your Grace. I never had such intentions towards you and have always discussed with you in good faith so far.

 

1) Shouldn't have said at a tourney. But a love story all the same.. a chance encounter, love at first sight, forbidden love, tragic romance. It fits

 

2) I think the safe assumption is that Lyanna was with her family at Winterfell. I'd mention that someone hypothesized she could have been staying at Harrenhal but then SOMEONE would jump all over me about "reading things on here and beliving them to be canon"  like he/she did a few weeks ago when I was working on my theory. Maybe Rhaegar ventured all the way up North and corresponded with her somehow. Maybe he Bael the Barded her, singing at Winterfell or something. Possible but that's extrapolating in the exact same way I do in my theory, only it attributes Rhaegars actions to foolish, tragic love as opposed to considering the political climate of Westeros and the King's madness. The latter is more compelling in my mind, but certainly not confirmed (or confirmable at this time)  

 

3) I can't answer that question any differently because to answer why it is there I'd have to arbitrarily accept that it's not just a part of the story. It could be a sign, I don't disapprove of the idea Rhaegar married Lyanna. But to quote the great 50 Cent: "don't throw stones if you live in a glass house"-- if my theory gets discredited out of hand I can do the same to this one. Shots fired-- this theory has holes too.

 

I consider it basically canon that R+L=J, but I have yet to see a theory that properly fills all the holes to explain why this happened. I don't think it's possible to formulate what happened because GRRM hasn't given us all the clues.. and he knows it.

 

4) You guys have done a great job with this for a long time, but I speak for more then myself when I say sometimes the tone is overly dismissive if the narrative doesn't agree with Jon being a legitimate Targ. I think that's part of the reason why entire volumes of this theory get hijacked by people just trolling you guys. And yes-- you've always been fair to me and I appreciate that. I can see where what I said was offensive.
 

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Countering us in hope to doubt is pointless, you should try to counter Martin, who is leading the readers these thoughts due to layers of clues and hints of Jon having royal importance, if not the king. 

 

I think a lot of those clues could hint to royal blood (which he has) more than Kingship.

 

Lotta people say they never considered this theory until they joined the forums or read it elsewhere online.

 

Edit: The bolded/underlined part is debatable, the very last part is pure conjecture.

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1) Shouldn't have said at a tourney. But a love story all the same.. a chance encounter, love at first sight, forbidden love, tragic romance. It fits

 

2) I think the safe assumption is that Lyanna was with her family at Winterfell. I'd mention that someone hypothesized she could have been staying at Harrenhal but then SOMEONE would jump all over me about "reading things on here and beliving them to be canon"  like he/she did a few weeks ago when I was working on my theory. Maybe Rhaegar ventured all the way up North and corresponded with her somehow. Maybe he Bael the Barded her, singing at Winterfell or something. Possible but that's extrapolating in the exact same way I do in my theory, only it attributes Rhaegars actions to foolish, tragic love as opposed to considering the political climate of Westeros and the King's madness. The latter is more compelling in my mind, but certainly not confirmed (or confirmable at this time)  

 

3) I can't answer that question any differently because to answer why it is there I'd have to arbitrarily accept that it's not just a part of the story. It could be a sign, I don't disapprove of the idea Rhaegar married Lyanna. But to quote the great 50 Cent: "don't throw stones if you live in a glass house"-- if my theory gets discredited out of hand I can do the same to this one. Shots fired-- this theory has holes too.

 

I consider it basically canon that R+L=J, but I have yet to see a theory that properly fills all the holes to explain why this happened. I don't think it's possible to formulate what happened because GRRM hasn't given us all the clues.. and he knows it.

 

4) You guys have done a great job with this for a long time, but I speak for more then myself when I say sometimes the tone is overly dismissive if the narrative doesn't agree with Jon being a legitimate Targ. I think that's part of the reason why entire volumes of this theory get hijacked by people just trolling you guys. And yes-- you've always been fair to me and I appreciate that. I can see where what I said was offensive.
 

1) I see. But that's more of an archetype than a trope, it all depends how the element is woven into the story. I trust GRRM's skill here.

 

2) That was actually me, among others :-) Lyanna at HH would offer way more options for developing the romance and the fact that she was abducted near HH is certainly interesting, though she just might have been on her way to Riverrun.

 

3) Will you at least concede that we offer a narratively reasonable purpose for introducig the polygamy into the story?

 

Not sure what you mean by discrediting your theory out of hand - if you mean, Aerys being behind the abduction, you are not the first one to propose this over the years and it has been discussed at length, repeatedly. Sorry that you are getting just the condensed version but really, Aerys having access to Lyanna and not using her in any way, or not punishing her for her brother's actions, would be very much non-Aerys.

 

4) Alrighty :-)

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3) Will you at least concede that we offer a narratively reasonable purpose for introducig the polygamy into the story?

 

Not sure what you mean by discrediting your theory out of hand - if you mean, Aerys being behind the abduction, you are not the first one to propose this over the years and it has been discussed at length, repeatedly. Sorry that you are getting just the condensed version but really, Aerys having access to Lyanna and not using her in any way, or not punishing her for her brother's actions, would be very much non-Aerys.

 

 

 

When MtnKitten and you say "no it makes no sense at all"-- that is discrediting out of hand. Especially insulting coming from the former because he/she misinterpreted what I was saying and never bothered to address it later \. Just said "no makes no sense at all"

 

Maybe Rhaegar was commanded to kidnap her then refused to bring her back after the execution of Rickard and Brandon. Also, if Aerys was using her disappearance to continue to undermine Rhaegar politically he wouldn't necessarily need Lyanna back at the capital AND as I said earlier what he does with Lyanna is mostly irrelevant at this point. The war goes on.

 

By the same logic Robb Stark would have been cowed and forced back north because the Lannisters had his sisters. This did not stop him in the least.

 

Aerys also had Jaime next to him and Tywin refused to help him. Nothing happened to Jaime.

 

Political prisoners are a blessing and a curse. If you're not willing to trade them for your own hostages, killing them does nothing but incite further rage in your enemies. He was losing the war, mind you.
 

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ML,
 
okay then, that's easy:
 
Ned thinks that the Kingsguard was once a shining example to the world because he grew up hearing the tales of Ser Corlys Velaryon, Ser Ryam Redwyne, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Duncan the Tall, and all the other legendary Kingsguard. And he knew what kind of men Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, Barristan Selmy, Jonothor Darry, and Lewyn Martell were in comparison to scum like Jaime Lannister, Mandon Moore, Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, and Preston Greenfield.

Oh, really, in your view Barristan Selmy is scum? The finest knight that Ned ever knew was Arthur Dayne?

Come on, put up some quotes for your view.

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She ran off with Rhaegar willingly. Nobody forced her. She did it by her free will due to her "wolf blood". 
Rhaegar did not rape her. She slept with him willingly. This is why Ned did not blame Rhaegar. 
His sister shared the equal blame for this.

Even if she slept with Rhaegar willingly, Rhaegar is dishonoring her by sleeping with her. Why doesn't Ned blame him for that?

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So he acted without it.

 

Once again: what is the literary purpose of introducing the Targ polygamy into the story?

 

I don't really agree that every historical bit of information in the story must have been introduced for some specific purpose. But if you're looking for a reason it could just as easily be Daenerys taking two husbands, possibly the other two heads of the dragon as Jorah suggests. 

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Who knows. Could be they had no idea what the hell to do.

It makes sense to Ned, even years later. They died because of their oath, as Hightower explains.

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But I do think it's funny that MtnLion, who I've always found to be disrespectful and elitist towards those who disagree, has trotted out probably the weakest evidence in defense of the completely non-confirmed theory that Jon Snow was, is, and possibly will be King of the 7 Kingdoms.

I never said Jon would be king of the Seven Kingdoms. I said that it is clear from the dialog in Ned's dream, and from other indications from Ned's perspective, that Jon is born legitimately as Rhaegar's heir. That does not get Jon a coronation or made king, by itself.

Speaking of being disrespectful . . . Pot, kettle Black

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It makes sense to Ned, even years later. They died because of their oath, as Hightower explains.

 

That is one possible explanation. Not the only one.

 

 

I never said Jon would be king of the Seven Kingdoms. I said that it is clear from the dialog in Ned's dream, and from other indications from Ned's perspective, that Jon is born legitimately as Rhaegar's heir. That does not get Jon a coronation or made king, by itself.

Speaking of being disrespectful . . . Pot, kettle Black

 

And I never said Aerys ordered Lyanna to be abducted from the Tower of Joy but whatever.

 

And aren't you just so clever. I'll be licking my wounds for days after that sting.

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[mod] People: please discuss the books. Not each other. I'm sure we all have views about each other, I'm equally sure they are not relevant to this discussion and I am absolutely certain they're not the sort of thing the moderators want to see cluttering up the thread. [/mod]

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That is one possible explanation. Not the only one.

It is the only one that makes sense with Ned's view of those Kingsguard. Or, perhaps you have some quote that shows otherwise?

And I never said Aerys ordered Lyanna to be abducted from the Tower of Joy but whatever.
And aren't you just so clever. I'll be licking my wounds for days after that sting.

 

It actually all makes sense why the KG would be there, fighting Lyanna's own brother to the death if you consider that Aerys ordered Lyanna's abduction.

You have an issue, or two, here. If Lyanna is to be brought back, why didn't Hightower do it when Rhaegar returns? If Lyanna is to be brought back, on Aerys' orders, when Aerys is dead, and there is a new king to report to, why do they stay?

ETA: You would also need to explain how Ned understood that line, to revere these three Kingsguard as he did, and one above all others. You need to show that Ned knew the order, and knew that they were fulfilling it. You would also need to explain why Ned would not revile the man who dishonored his sister by begetting a bastard upon her.
No, it makes no sense at all.

 

No, I still think that your supposedly sensible scenario still makes no sense at all.

 

ETA:  There you go, that is what and where. 

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Poets would have you believe it can happen at first sight, but cmon.... For GRRM to make these two fall in love after one tourney is somewhat absurd.
 
IMO.


Way to avoid the question.

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