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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.155

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Way to avoid the question.

 

 

:rolleyes:

 

Really? You answer that impossible question.

 

Different people fall in love at different times. My suggesting that the time they spent at Harrenhal is not enough time should hardly open me up to having to try to answer a philosophical question like that.

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:agree: I agree with both of these sentiments.

 

As to the dream sequence -- the point to me has always been that the information needs to be consistent with Ned's understanding of the truth of why the KG were at ToJ. I certainly am OK with finding out that the conversation was not quite so formalistic, but if it turns out that what happened there is completely inconsistent with the content of the conversation, then I think it would be quite "cheap" of GRRM to lead the readers to believe that the KG were there for one reason and then have it turn out that what happened was completely different and completely inconsistent with the conversation. But it was just a dream so it is ok? No, I would not think such a literary ploy was perfectly acceptable -- I would find it unnecessarily manipulative and unduly misleading. But if the conversation itself never happened, that would not bother me at all. The key is that the contents of the conversation must be consistent with the actual facts of what occurred.

 

This isn't really true seeing as Ned has a second flashback to the TOJ while he's lucid

 

 

The royal apartments were in Maegor's Holdfast, a massive square fortress that nestled in the heart of the Red Keep behind walls twelve feet thick and a dry moat lined with iron spikes, a castle-within-a-castle. Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king's bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him. Ser Barristan's face was as pale as his armor. Ned had only to look at him to know that something was dreadfully wrong. The royal steward opened the door. "Lord Eddard Stark, the Hand of the King," he announced.
"Bring him here," Robert's voice called, strangely thick.

 

Here Ned flashes back to the other 3 KG he once encountered. But these 3 KG now are there to let him pass. If the TOJ dream is exactly what happened, then why would Ned be having a flashback to it when 3 KG let him pass to see Robert?

 

 

I also agree that Rhaegar would not have assumed that if he died that Aerys and Aegon would die as well. So while Ethan is only one plausible source for how Ned found out where to find Lyanna (Ashara also seems like a plausible candidate), Rhaegar would have had reason to want Ned to find out where to find Lyanna if Rhaegar died at the Trident, and Rhaegar might have considered Ethan to be the best candidate to keep this secret if Ned's side won the war and someone needed to go to ToJ to notify the KG of the outcome of the war and get Lyanna to safety at that point. But I only consider Ethan one plausible candidate -- not the only plausible candidate.

 

That doesn't make any sense. Everyone knew going into the Trident that that was the royalists last stand pretty much. If Rhaegar were to die, which in all likelihood also would mean that the royalists had lost the Trident, then why wouldn't he think that Aerys and Aegon would also die? Who was going to stop the rebels from taking King's Landing if the royalists were defeated at the Trident? There wasn't anybody left as Mace was besieging Storm's End, and Tywin was refusing to take sides.

 

Rhaegar would have had to know that his death would signal the end for the royalists. Which it did. The royalists all gave up and fled once Robert killed Rhaegar. So it doesn't make any sense to believe that Rhaegar wouldn't know that his death would almost surely ensure Aerys and Aegon's as well. It's exactly what happened.

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This is not 100% sure, tbh. During his chapter in Chataya's brothel, he thinks "why men have passions!!". He could have well meant Rhaegar as well. The difference here is that he knew that, even if Jon was his bastard, he's not like Robert as in he's not around making bastards he wouldn't care for.

 

I'm 50/50 about a marriage between L and R, btw. Makes no difference for me.

Here is the actual quote from GoT Eddard IX:

 

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

 

Based on the actual details of the quote, I am not sure it really makes sense that Ned is talking about Rhaegar when he talks about "lusts" -- the word actually is lusts and not passions. I think that distinction is somewhat significant. Perhaps Rhaegar was "passionate" in regards Lyanna -- but Ned would never have called it "lustful." So I really think that the more understandable explanation is that Ned is really talking about Robert -- and the way that Jon is viewed -- not really about Rhaegar. So I agree that the way that Ned seems to view Rhaegar really makes a lot more sense if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

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Here is the actual quote from GoT Eddard IX:

 

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

 

Based on the actual details of the quote, I am not sure it really makes sense that Ned is talking about Rhaegar when he talks about "lusts" -- the word actually is lusts and not passions. I think that distinction is somewhat significant. Perhaps Rhaegar was "passionate" in regards Lyanna -- but Ned would never have called it "lustful." So I really think that the more understandable explanation is that Ned is really talking about Robert -- and the way that Jon is viewed -- not really about Rhaegar. So I agree that the way that Ned seems to view Rhaegar really makes a lot more sense if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

 

I am sorry. but it does sound like he was talking about Robert as well as Rhaegar. "Men" and "lusts". Plural. And he did think about Jon Snow and Jon is not bastard of Robert.  

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:rolleyes:
 
Really? You answer that impossible question.
 
Different people fall in love at different times. My suggesting that the time they spent at Harrenhal is not enough time should hardly open me up to having to try to answer a philosophical question like that.


You did not simply suggest that they did not spend enough time together to fall in love. You also refer to the suggestion that they did as "silly". Now you admit that "different people fall in love at different times" and that this is a philosophical question. So, absent further evidence, both arguments are equally valid.

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I am sorry. but if does sound like he was talking about Robert as well as Rhaegar. "Men" and "lusts". Plural. And he did think about Jon Snow and Jon is not bastard of Robert.  

 

I concur. That line could really go either way.

 

He didn't mention Rhaegar by name, but directly after thinking about him he asks about Robert's bastards.

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I concur. That line could really go either way.

 

He didn't mention Rhaegar by name, but directly after thinking about him he asks about Robert's bastards.

 

Yes.

We know that Rhaegar was at least partly driven by prophecy. I doubt that Ned knew about this part. 

If a man eloped with a woman and had a child with her, then surely people would assume that he had desire or lust in this woman. 

This is why Ned thought Rhaegar had "lust" in Lyanna (and honestly he did have lust in her).

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And what is the minimum amount of time two people need to spend together in order to fall in love?

How much alcohol are we talking about here? 

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How much alcohol are we talking about here? 


Drink 'till she's cute but stop before the wedding. Words to live by. ;)

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How much alcohol are we talking about here? 

How about the lateness of the hour?  Everyone knows that sights are much prettier at night, than the morning. 

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This isn't really true seeing as Ned has a second flashback to the TOJ while he's lucid

 

 

Here Ned flashes back to the other 3 KG he once encountered. But these 3 KG now are there to let him pass. If the TOJ dream is exactly what happened, then why would Ned be having a flashback to it when 3 KG let him pass to see Robert?

 

 

That doesn't make any sense. Everyone knew going into the Trident that that was the royalists last stand pretty much. If Rhaegar were to die, which in all likelihood also would mean that the royalists had lost the Trident, then why wouldn't he think that Aerys and Aegon would also die? Who was going to stop the rebels from taking King's Landing if the royalists were defeated at the Trident? There wasn't anybody left as Mace was besieging Storm's End, and Tywin was refusing to take sides.

 

Rhaegar would have had to know that his death would signal the end for the royalists. Which it did. The royalists all gave up and fled once Robert killed Rhaegar. So it doesn't make any sense to believe that Rhaegar wouldn't know that his death would almost surely ensure Aerys and Aegon's as well. It's exactly what happened.

I have no idea why you think that seeing three KG who let him pass means that Ned is remembering 3 KG at ToJ who let him pass. Obviously, we know they did not because we know that 5 of Ned's 7 died and all 3 KG died in combat -- and Ned built 8 cairns for them. So your point that 3 KG letting Ned pass reminding him of ToJ means that the 3 KG at ToJ must have let Ned does not makes sense to me. Merely sight of 3 KG together is what triggered the memory most likely -- not the precise action they are taking. There is really no reason to assume that only if the 3 KG at ToJ had let Ned pass would he be reminded of them by these 3 KG who let him pass.

 

And I completely disagree that Rhaegar would assume that if the rebels won, that they would murder his son. Perhaps Rhaegar might conclude that Aerys was likely to be in grave danger of being executed, but his son was not an automatic target. And as we know, if Ned had been the one to arrive first at find Elia and the children, they would have lived. But to assume that the rebels would kill a baby is not really something that most people would assume.

 

 

 

I am sorry. but if does sound like he was talking about Robert as well as Rhaegar. "Men" and "lusts". Plural. And he did think about Jon Snow and Jon is not bastard of Robert.  

 

 

Well, I think that one needs to examine it in its entire context. The reference to men, plural, is a generic reference to any man that has sex with a woman not his wife and bears a bastard. Robert is the specific person who might have sparked the thought -- but Ned expresses the thought in a generic sense.

 

And of course he also thinks of Jon because Jon has been treated as a bastard his entire life. So Jon is paying the price for being viewed as a bastard -- even if Jon really is not a bastard.

 

But I think we have enough information regarding how Ned thinks of Rhaegar -- never negative -- that if Ned thought that Rhaegar had "lust" for Lyanna, Ned would not view Rhaegar is such a positive light. More likely, Ned knows that Rhaegar made "an honest woman" of Lyanna by marrying her, which is why Ned has the view he does.

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Well, I think that one needs to examine it in its entire context. The reference to men, plural, is a generic reference to any man that has sex with a woman not his wife and bears a bastard. Robert is the specific person who might have sparked the thought -- but Ned expresses the thought in a generic sense.

 

And of course he also thinks of Jon because Jon has been treated as a bastard his entire life. So Jon is paying the price for being viewed as a bastard -- even if Jon really is not a bastard.

 

But I think we have enough information regarding how Ned thinks of Rhaegar -- never negative -- that if Ned thought that Rhaegar had "lust" for Lyanna, Ned would not view Rhaegar is such a positive light. More likely, Ned knows that Rhaegar made "an honest woman" of Lyanna by marrying her, which is why Ned has the view he does.

 

You are stretching here. Jon is a bastard.

And why Jon is paying the price? It is not his fault to be a bastard. It is the fault of "men" and "lusts". 

 

Ned did not think Rhaegar negatively because his sister also had "lust" in him due to her wolf blood. 

Ned is a just person. He could not criticize Rhaegar since his sister ran away with him willingly and actively. 

His sister is Lyanna the defiant. 

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Drink 'till she's cute but stop before the wedding. Words to live by. ;)

Two words synonymous with wedding, open bar.

 

 

How about the lateness of the hour?  Everyone knows that sights are much prettier at night, than the morning. 

The long night is going to be a bigger problem than I thought.

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I have no idea why you think that seeing three KG who let him pass means that Ned is remembering 3 KG at ToJ who let him pass. Obviously, we know they did not because we know that 5 of Ned's 7 died and all 3 KG died in combat -- and Ned built 8 cairns for them. So your point that 3 KG letting Ned pass reminding him of ToJ means that the 3 KG at ToJ must have let Ned does not makes sense to me. Merely sight of 3 KG together is what triggered the memory most likely -- not the precise action they are taking. There is really no reason to assume that only if the 3 KG at ToJ had let Ned pass would he be reminded of them by these 3 KG who let him pass.

 

I know that they eventually fought, but the timeline could be mixed up. Ned has a flashback to the 3 KG at the TOJ after 3 KG just let him pass as he's on his way to meet Robert. He then finds Robert dying in his bed. It's not inconceivable that Ned arrived at the TOJ and was granted passage to see Lyanna as she was dying, and then only upon Ned coming out of the TOJ does the battle occur over disagreement over what has to happen to Jon (Ned offers to raise him in secrecy as his bastard, the KG won't allow that).

 

GRRM has declared that the dream is not literal. The timeline could be that as well, and Ned's flashback experienced as he passes Boros, Preston, and Barristan doesn't fit otherwise.

 

 

And I completely disagree that Rhaegar would assume that if the rebels won, that they would murder his son. Perhaps Rhaegar might conclude that Aerys was likely to be in grave danger of being executed, but his son was not an automatic target. And as we know, if Ned had been the one to arrive first at find Elia and the children, they would have lived. But to assume that the rebels would kill a baby is not really something that most people would assume.

 

Well that's a baseless assumption as Tywin and Robert both knew that Rhaegar's children had to die for Robert's throne to be secure, and Robert never would have ordered Stannis to seize Dragonstone if it wasn't on everybody's mind that as long as there were Targaryens in Westoros Robert's rule would be in danger. And while Ned didn't think that Rhaegar's children had to die, he does think that Viserys, Dany, and Rhaego have to die if they ever cross the Narrow Sea and land in Westoros. Ned just thinks they're not a problem so long as they aren't in Westoros, not that they're not in they are.

 

Rhaegar couldn't possibly be at all being politically savvy without understanding that Robert winning the rebellion would put his entire family in danger as Rhaegar would have to know that any Targaryen would be able to challenge Robert's claim on the throne. The idea that Rhaegar would think that only Aerys would have to die in a successful usurpation is baseless as Robert was trying to overthrow them, not just kill particular members of the family. He might think that Rhaenys might be spared to one day marry Robert's son, but everyone else would likely not be

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You are stretching here. Jon is a bastard.

And why Jon is paying the price? It is not his fault to be a bastard. It is the fault of "men" and "lusts". 

 

Ned did not think Rhaegar negatively because his sister also had "lust" in him due to her wolf blood. 

Ned is a just person. He could not criticize Rhaegar since his sister ran away with him willingly and actively. 

His sister is Lyanna the defiant. 

How is that a stretch? Jon pays the price for being viewed as a bastard whether Jon really is a bastard or only falsely presented by Ned to be a bastard. And Ned's guilt would be even greater if Ned tagged Jon with this label when the label really was undeserved. So Ned would think that bastards should not be viewed so badly -- and then considers that there would not be bastards if men (in general) did not have such lusts. And then Ned speaks of Robert's bastards -- a man that Ned knows has such lusts and did have such bastards. 

 

While Ned could have had these thought if Jon really is a bastard, they work equally well with Jon only as a person presented as a bastard but not really one. It is from other things that Ned states elsewhere regarding Rhaegar that the readers get the clue that Ned does not seem to think of Rhaegar as the type of person who would give birth to a bastard. Ned certainly thinks Rhaegar would not visit a brothel. If Rhaegar would have sex with Lyanna outside of marriage -- why wouldn't he go to a prostitute? But if Rhaegar married Lyanna first, then it would explain why Ned would think that Rhaegar would not visit a brothel.

 

These clues need to be viewed in their greater context -- putting together bits and pieces from different parts of the narrative.

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I know that they eventually fought, but the timeline could be mixed up. Ned has a flashback to the 3 KG at the TOJ after 3 KG just let him pass as he's on his way to meet Robert. He then finds Robert dying in his bed. It's not inconceivable that Ned arrived at the TOJ and was granted passage to see Lyanna as she was dying, and then only upon Ned coming out of the TOJ does the battle occur over disagreement over what has to happen to Jon (Ned offers to raise him in secrecy as his bastard, the KG won't allow that).

 

GRRM has declared that the dream is not literal. The timeline could be that as well, and Ned's flashback experienced as he passes Boros, Preston, and Barristan doesn't fit otherwise.

 

 

Well that's a baseless assumption as Tywin and Robert both knew that Rhaegar's children had to die for Robert's throne to be secure, and Robert never would have ordered Stannis to seize Dragonstone if it wasn't on everybody's mind that as long as there were Targaryens in Westoros Robert's rule would be in danger. And while Ned didn't think that Rhaegar's children had to die, he does think that Viserys, Dany, and Rhaego have to die if they ever cross the Narrow Sea and land in Westoros. Ned just thinks they're not a problem so long as they aren't in Westoros, not that they're not in they are.

 

Rhaegar couldn't possibly be at all being politically savvy without understanding that Robert winning the rebellion would put his entire family in danger as Rhaegar would have to know that any Targaryen would be able to challenge Robert's claim on the throne. The idea that Rhaegar would think that only Aerys would have to die in a successful usurpation is baseless as Robert was trying to overthrow them, not just kill particular members of the family

I just don't see why you assume that because Boros, Preston and Barristan let Ned pass, that Ned could only be reminded of the 3 KG at ToJ if they let him pass. It is just as easy to assume that the mere sight of 3 KG together reminded him of the 3 KG at ToJ. So your insistence that Ned's flashback "doesn't fit otherwise" simply is not correct. It fits perfectly as long as one concludes that the mere sight of 3 KG together, under any circumstance, might trigger the memory. How is that so hard to consider as a possibility?

 

As to the death of Aegon, I think historically, in the real world, when men overthrew a dynasty, they did not always kill all potential claimants. One common approach was to keep them captive so that no one else can claim to be the King if their candidate for King lives but is under control of the other side -- so maybe Aegon would be kept as a captive. Sometimes they are banished from the Kingdom -- so maybe Aegon is sent to Essos. But the assumption that the rebels would kill a baby in cold blood is not a normal assumption -- and Ned certainly is aghast that such a thing occurred -- and almost stops being friends with Robert over the issue.

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How is that a stretch? Jon pays the price for being viewed as a bastard whether Jon really is a bastard or only falsely presented by Ned to be a bastard. And Ned's guilt would be even greater if Ned tagged Jon with this label when the label really was undeserved. So Ned would think that bastards should not be viewed so badly -- and then considers that there would not be bastards if men (in general) did not have such lusts. And then Ned speaks of Robert's bastards -- a man that Ned knows has such lusts and did have such bastards. 

 

While Ned could have had these thought if Jon really is a bastard, they work equally well with Jon only as a person presented as a bastard but not really one. It is from other things that Ned states elsewhere regarding Rhaegar that the readers get the clue that Ned does not seem to think of Rhaegar as the type of person who would give birth to a bastard. Ned certainly thinks Rhaegar would not visit a brothel. If Rhaegar would have sex with Lyanna outside of marriage -- why wouldn't he go to a prostitute? But if Rhaegar married Lyanna first, then it would explain why Ned would think that Rhaegar would not visit a brothel.

 

These clues need to be viewed in their greater context -- putting together bits and pieces from different parts of the narrative.

 

here is the text:

 

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not"

 

Well, because he thought that Rhaegar and his sister loved each other and did something naive, romantic, reckless and passionate like running off together from the world. Rhaegar behaved just like a teenager as 15-year old Lyanna. Apparently this type of person would not be like a rogue as Daemon Targaryen who always frequented brothels.  

 

(Ned did not know that Rheagar was mainly driven by his obsession in prophecy. he ran off and slept with Lyanna mainly for the savior of this world) 

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As to the death of Aegon, I think historically, in the real world, when men overthrew a dynasty, they did not always kill all potential claimants. One common approach was to keep them captive so that no one else can claim to be the King if their candidate for King lives but is under control of the other side -- so maybe Aegon would be kept as a captive. Sometimes they are banished from the Kingdom -- so maybe Aegon is sent to Essos. But the assumption that the rebels would kill a baby in cold blood is not a normal assumption -- and Ned certainly is aghast that such a thing occurred -- and almost stops being friends with Robert over the issue.

 

Well, in the real world, after overthrowing one dynasty, the first thing to make sure is to get rid of all the possible male heir, old or young. 

It may be fine to keep Elia and Rhaenys as hostage or a possible wife or silent sister, little Aegon had to die eventually. 

 

This is a fantasy novel so Viserys can be alive to play his part in the story. In the reality, he would be hunted until death. 

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here is the text:

 

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not"

 

Well, because he thought that Rhaegar and his sister loved each other and did something naive, romantic, reckless and passionate like running off together from the world. Rhaegar behaved just like a teenager as 15-year old Lyanna. Apparently this type of person would not be like a rogue as Daemon Targaryen who always frequented brothels.  

 

(Ned did not know that Rheagar was mainly driven by his obsession in prophecy. he ran off and slept with Lyanna mainly for the savior of this world) 

First, Ned does not have a negative thought about Rhaegar, which undermines any thoughts that Rhaegar dishonored Lyanna.  The only conclusion is that Rhaegar acted honorably and married Lyanna. 

 

Second, the savior of Planetos is the Prince that was Promised.  Obviously, if he is a bastard he cannot be a Prince. 

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here is the text:

 

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not"

 

Well, because he thought that Rhaegar and his sister loved each other and did something naive, romantic, reckless and passionate like running off together from the world. Rhaegar behaved just like a teenager as 15-year old Lyanna. Apparently this type of person would not be like a rogue as Daemon Targaryen who always frequented brothels.  

 

(Ned did not know that Rheagar was mainly driven by his obsession in prophecy. he ran off and slept with Lyanna mainly for the savior of this world) 

But Ned did not really know Rhaegar personally. What would make Ned so sure that Rhaegar would not frequent brothels? Marrying Lyanna would do it. Taking Lyanna as a mistress -- no matter the other circumstances -- less likely to do it. Any man willing to take a mistress might go to a brothel. He might not -- a man might be willing to do one and not the other -- but what would give Ned the confidence to make this conclusion? A marriage seems like the most likely reason.

 

P.S. I agree with ML -- Jon is the Prince that was promised -- not the Bastard that was promised.

 

 

 

Well, in the real world, after overthrowing one dynasty, the first thing to make sure is to get rid of all the possible male heir, old or young. 

It may be fine to keep Elia and Rhaenys as hostage or a possible wife or silent sister, little Aegon had to die eventually. 

 

This is a fantasy novel so Viserys can be alive to play his part in the story. In the reality, he would be hunted until death. 

No, in real life such did not happen. Babies who were potential claimants were not necessarily killed. And the point of keeping a captive is to prevent a claimant from being free. So the person who one wants to be captive is the person that the other side considers to be their King. That way the next in line -- who might be free -- cannot also claim to be King. So your factual statement simply is incorrect historically.

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