From Death to Dawn: Jon Will Rise and The Sword of the Morning

[LmL]

Hey Sly Wren, just a quick thought here this morning. What if the original sword wielded by the SOTM was not Dawn, but Lightbringer? (that's in the scenario that Dawn is not LB obviously).

Another what if: what if Jon is the SOTM in the sense that HE HIMSELF is Lightbringer, as per Schmendrick? Basically, LB has several incarnations - the dragons are one, an actual sword will be another, the Wall itself or the NW is a sword in the dark, and a person can be LB as well. Maybe Jon will BE the SOTM but not wield Dawn. Jon himself is the sword of the morning.

Another what if: maybe the same sword that was either Lightbringer or the "dragonsteel" of the LH doesn't need to be the LB or dragonsteel this time. Maybe a different sword can play the role. Maybe Neds sword wasn't LB, just a Valyrian steel sword, but it is becoming a LB due to all the blood sacrifice Brienne is unwittingly offering to weirwoods or something... I'm not a fan of this - I want the original swords - but it should be mentioned. Dawn might be a museum piece - the last magic sword from the last go round. This time we will get a new sword, but George has shown us the old one for important symbolic reasons or something.

The one which is the most troubling is the idea that the original SOTM didn't wield the white sword.

"Oh the Dornishmen's blade was made of black steel, and it's kiss was as sharp and cold as a leech."

A sword which drinks blood? With a cold bite? Lightbringer is a blood drinking sword, made of black steel (according to me), and here it is in the hands of a Dornishman. Ice is notoriously cold to the touch, as per the whole conversation at Crasters about "the 'bite" and blades with bite. Do you know what I am talking about here or should I explain further?

As for length of essays and including quotes... you're only going to get one kind of encouragement from me, and that's go hard to the rack (sorry, basketball term). You know what I mean - in order to really do good analysis of Martin you either have to confine your topic with a ruthless efficiency, or you must write a ten thousand word essay. His ideas are just not simple, and to prove anything you have to refer to many different passages to cross reference. But hey, since you didn't use all your material, you can let the comments on this thread run a while and then consider your material in light of people's suggestions are write a part 2. Of course then you'll need a snappy name for the series (I recommend "something something of Ice and Fire") and probably a little free website or something... ;). And before you know it, you'll have your own haters! That's when you know you've made it. ;)

[Regular John Umber]

Dawn belongs to House Dayne. 
Only finest knight of their house can wield Dawn.
They are not sword-keeper for Jon Snow.

Sure, traditionally they are the wielders of Dawn. But who says they are the only ones who can? If they're the keepers of Dawn, who are they keeping it for?

[Sly Wren]

 

I could have swore I remember some theory that Ice and Dawn were switched or something strange like that. The name "Ice" was the name of the Stark sword in the Age of Heroes for it likely predated Valyrian Steel.

 

Mithras does make a good point. Perhaps its hiding in the crypts of Winterfell or something like that. Who knows?

Yup. There's this one by Voice of the First Men: http://asoiaf.wester...ce-became-dawn/

 

And you can see LmL's signature above for essays with similar ideas.

 

As for where the sword is--Ned returned it to Starfall. No reason I can see to doubt that.

 

But it "presents" itself to Jon in his epiphany. His time of need. Now we're in possible Excalibur territory. If Jon has to pull the sword out of a literal stone, my eyes might never stop rolling.

 

But a magical presentation--he sees the sword like Galahad sees the grail. The sword is hanging in the south--does Jon have to go look for it like the grail? That presents more than a few logistical problems.

 

Will it present itself to him once he's worthy--the sword chooses the bearer? We don't know how the Sword of the Morning is chosen, so this seems possible. Especially in a fantasy series. Especially after the epiphany. 

 

Could it be the crypts? Jon's dream of the crypts seems more like the underworld. Tree-Bran tells Ghost-Jon he can see in the underworld. I'm thinking wherever the sword is, however Jon's supposed to find it, he will learn that in an underworld.

 

Dawn belongs to House Dayne. 

Only finest knight of their house can wield Dawn.

They are not sword-keeper for Jon Snow.

No, but they are the keeper of Dawn. Until the next Sword of the Morning rises. And we don't know how the wielder is chosen.

 

But we do know that Jon and only Jon has a vision of that sword right after a long night of questioning, "who am I?" Answer: "The Sword of the Morning."

[purple-eyes]

Sure, traditionally they are the wielders of Dawn. But who says they are the only ones who can? If they're the keepers of Dawn, who are they keeping it for?

 

They keep it for themselves. This is their house heirloom. 

They are not stewards of Gondor who keep and guard the throne for Aragorn. 

Jon Snow is not a Dayne. they may gift it to him at some point due to something necessary, but House Dayne was not assigned a mission to guard this sword for a future person to come to claim it. 

Jon Snow can borrow it but he needs to return it. 

[Sly Wren]

Sure, traditionally they are the wielders of Dawn. But who says they are the only ones who can? If they're the keepers of Dawn, who are they keeping it for?

Yes--this is one of the things Jon's winning Longclaw opens up--can a magical ancestral sword be won on worth, not bloodline? Even out of bloodline? 

 

Granted, if we go back far enough, Mormont and Jon probably have some common ancestors, but still. . . 

 

Though Dawn is unique in Martinlandia. So, maybe blood is necessary, too.

 

 

They keep it for themselves. This is their house heirloom. 

They are not stewards of Gondor who keep and guard the throne for Aragorn. 

Jon Snow is not a Dayne. they may gift it to him at some point due to something necessary, but House Dayne was not assigned a mission to guard this sword for a future person to come to claim it. 

Jon Snow can borrow it but he needs to return it. 

1. We don't know Jon's parentage. At present, we have theories of varying strengths.

 

But we do know that Jon would have Dayne-ish blood via the most prevalent theory--RLJ. Is that enough? No idea. Books do not say.

 

2. But House Dayne does guard the sword for future wielders. Only a worthy Dayne can wield it. At present, no one wields it. It's not just an heirloom. It's a sacred trust. The Daynes hold it until a worthy wielder rises.

 

So why can only a worthy wielder wield it (sorry--that sounds like a tongue twister)? Where does this tradition come from? And what is the wielder supposed to do with it?

[purple-eyes]

Yes--this is one of the things Jon's winning Longclaw opens up--can a magical ancestral sword be won on worth, not bloodline? Even out of bloodline? 

 

But House Dayne does guard the sword for future wielders. Only a worthy Dayne can wield it. At present, no one wields it. It's not just an heirloom. It's a sacred trust. The Daynes hold it until a worthy wielder rises.

 

So why can only a worthy wielder wield it (sorry--that sounds like a tongue twister)? Where does this tradition come from? And what is the wielder supposed to do with it?

 

The daynes hold it until a worthy Dayne wielder rises. 

Jon Snow had some distant Dayne blood through Maekar's wife Dyanna Dayne.

However, this does not mean he is a man of House Dayne. 

I can see little Ned had Dawn with him and fight the others with Jon, then somehow failed then trusted the Dawn to Jon to finish the final war. 

But I can not imagine House Dayne chose Jon Snow as their next sword of morning due to his Dayne blood from dyanna Dayne. 

[LmL]

Sly Wren, if you look back at the quote with Tyrion be holding Oathkeeper, note the diamond shaped panes of glass through which sunlight streams, which may be an allusion to the diamond in the holy of the constellation SOTM.

Also, consider this: the KG knights are sometimes called the "white swords," and their tower is the "white sword tower." If KG are white swords, the NW are... say it with me... ;) So when Jon dream that he is armored in black ice with his blade "burning red in his fist," it's almost like HE is the black sword, burning red. And btw I take "burning red" to mean burning. I've seen someone try to parse that and I didn't buy it. Burning means burning. Fire. That sword was on fire with red flame, I don't see any other interpretation.

[Mithras]

Ok, let me throw in some relevant stuff from Silmarillion.

 

"There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves, neither will it abide with you long."

 

Anglachel was the sword forged by Eöl the Dark Elf from a meteorite. Its mate was Anguirel. The blade was black but also glowed and was so hard that it could easily slice through iron. It was said that it was imbued with Eöl's malice and was apparently sentient.

 

Anglachel is described as being forged from the "iron that fell from heaven as a flaming star" or a meteorite. According to Melian, Eöl's dark malice is left in the sword.

 

Christopher Tolkien notes that Anglachel contains the Sindarin word ang ("iron") and probably the element lhach ("leaping flame"). This would give the meaning "Flaming Iron". The last element in Anglachel could be êl ("star"). So, the sword literally means “Flaming Iron Star”.

 

Anglachel seems to have held a certain level of sentient awareness, poured into it from Eöl: it was fierce and bloodthirsty, drinking the blood of those it bit. "From no blood wilt thou shrink." said Turin after seeing it unharmed by the scorching blood of Glaurung. Nevertheless, innocent blood left a terrible shroud of grief on the sword, and it remembered: when it spoke to Turin it named two especially whose innocent blood it had drunk: Beleg, slain by mischance, and Brandir slain unjustly. It was also said to "mourn" for Beleg, and to "rejoice" when unsheathed in war.

 

Recall that Eöl was both a smith and a sorcerer who ended up killing his wife. AA anyone?

 

Turin had it reforged and named it Gurthang "Iron of Death”. Túrin himself became known as Mormegil, the "Black Sword".

 

It was used to slay the most evil dragon. In the end, Turin (the most tragic hero) committed suicide with it.

 

There is a lot to think about.

[purple-eyes]

Ok, let me throw in some relevant stuff from Silmarillion.

 

"There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves, neither will it abide with you long."

 

Anglachel was the sword forged by Eöl the Dark Elf from a meteorite. Its mate was Anguirel. The blade was black but also glowed and was so hard that it could easily slice through iron. It was said that it was imbued with Eöl's malice and was apparently sentient.

 

Anglachel is described as being forged from the "iron that fell from heaven as a flaming star" or a meteorite. According to Melian, Eöl's dark malice is left in the sword.

 

Christopher Tolkien notes that Anglachel contains the Sindarin word ang ("iron") and probably the element lhach ("leaping flame"). This would give the meaning "Flaming Iron". The last element in Anglachel could be êl ("star"). So, the sword literally means “Flaming Iron Star”.

 

Anglachel seems to have held a certain level of sentient awareness, poured into it from Eöl: it was fierce and bloodthirsty, drinking the blood of those it bit. "From no blood wilt thou shrink." said Turin after seeing it unharmed by the scorching blood of Glaurung. Nevertheless, innocent blood left a terrible shroud of grief on the sword, and it remembered: when it spoke to Turin it named two especially whose innocent blood it had drunk: Beleg, slain by mischance, and Brandir slain unjustly. It was also said to "mourn" for Beleg, and to "rejoice" when unsheathed in war.

 

Recall that Eöl was both a smith and a sorcerer who ended up killing his wife. AA anyone?

 

Turin had it reforged and named it Gurthang "Iron of Death”. Túrin himself became known as Mormegil, the "Black Sword".

 

It was used to slay the most evil dragon. In the end, Turin (the most tragic hero) committed suicide with it.

 

There is a lot to think about.

 

I agree. I have seen a lot of parallels between Anglachel and Dawn too. 

Black sword and white sword. Both forged by a shooting star. Held by the deadliest man in their time. 

Turin used it to slay a dragon and also Morgoth and thus saved the whole world. Maybe Jon would do it also. 

Good guy beleg was killed then turin claimed the sword for himself. Arthur was killed then made the sword available again. 

I can see somebody (ned or darkstar) was killed somehow and then Jon took it. 

by the way, turin married his sister, his worst deed. I think Jon will somehow fall into some incest marriage too. 

[Sly Wren]

Hey Sly Wren, just a quick thought here this morning. What if the original sword wielded by the SOTM was not Dawn, but Lightbringer? (that's in the scenario that Dawn is not LB obviously).

Another what if: what if Jon is the SOTM in the sense that HE HIMSELF is Lightbringer, as per Schmendrick? Basically, LB has several incarnations - the dragons are one, an actual sword will be another, the Wall itself or the NW is a sword in the dark, and a person can be LB as well. Maybe Jon will BE the SOTM but not wield Dawn. Jon himself is the sword of the morning.

Another what if: maybe the same sword that was either Lightbringer or the "dragonsteel" of the LH doesn't need to be the LB or dragonsteel this time. Maybe a different sword can play the role. Maybe Neds sword wasn't LB, just a Valyrian steel sword, but it is becoming a LB due to all the blood sacrifice Brienne is unwittingly offering to weirwoods or something... I'm not a fan of this - I want the original swords - but it should be mentioned. Dawn might be a museum piece - the last magic sword from the last go round. This time we will get a new sword, but George has shown us the old one for important symbolic reasons or something.

All very cool stuff. 

 

I am one who thinks that we may never know who AAR is--so many people have elements of him. I can see Martin leaving readers, books all finished, still arguing over who was the real AAR. While Martin jus tears his hat and his turtle pin and smiles at us. Humph.

 

For the identity of the sword--I really think the key is in the swords Jon's dealt with. Jon wanted his father's true, magical greatsword, even though he couldn't inherit it. He's wanted to earn a sword since he was a little boy. Earn a sword and have his identity established as worthy, not just a bastard.

 

Jon does earn a magical (Valyrian) sword from his father figure via worth. Treated as Mormont's son. Longclaw is bestowed by the rightful owner freely on Jon, who's earned out of the bloodline. And the sword is halfway to a great sword. But it's a bastard sword. And Jon's still the Bastard of Winterfell. 

 

But as Sword of the Morning, he would get his father's sword through his father's line (either via Rhaegar or Arthur). I think the focus is not on "Jon wants Ice." But "Jon wants father's sword. Wants legitimacy as father's earned heir." Jon doesn't want Ice because it's Ice. He wants it because it's his father's. 

 

If Jon gets Dawn--he gets all of that. His father's magical great sword. His identity as Sword of the Morning, not Bastard of Winterfell. He will have earned it. 

The one which is the most troubling is the idea that the original SOTM didn't wield the white sword.

"Oh the Dornishmen's blade was made of black steel, and it's kiss was as sharp and cold as a leech."

A sword which drinks blood? With a cold bite? Lightbringer is a blood drinking sword, made of black steel (according to me), and here it is in the hands of a Dornishman. Ice is notoriously cold to the touch, as per the whole conversation at Crasters about "the 'bite" and blades with bite. Do you know what I am talking about here or should I explain further?

As for length of essays and including quotes... you're only going to get one kind of encouragement from me, and that's go hard to the rack (sorry, basketball term). You know what I mean - in order to really do good analysis of Martin you either have to confine your topic with a ruthless efficiency, or you must write a ten thousand word essay. His ideas are just not simple, and to prove anything you have to refer to many different passages to cross reference. But hey, since you didn't use all your material, you can let the comments on this thread run a while and then consider your material in light of people's suggestions are write a part 2. Of course then you'll need a snappy name for the series (I recommend "something something of Ice and Fire") and probably a little free website or something... ;). And before you know it, you'll have your own haters! That's when you know you've made it. ;)

An interesting point re: the dornishman. But the Daynes are not regular dornishmen. They are "stony" dornish (am going to come back to all the stone stuff late when I have time).

 

But the idea that the song gives hints re: blood-drinking LB--very interesting.

 

And on length:  :cheers: I try to make things scannable. Plus, so much of the epiphany and sword winning is NOT collected quotes. It's just following the line of Martin's narrative. He leads us, in scene, to Jon's epiphany. So, too many quotes might have undermined me.

 

But I agree--Martin gives us so much material--will have to use it sometime. :)

 

Sly Wren, if you look back at the quote with Tyrion be holding Oathkeeper, note the diamond shaped panes of glass through which sunlight streams, which may be an allusion to the diamond in the holy of the constellation SOTM.

Also, consider this: the KG knights are sometimes called the "white swords," and their tower is the "white sword tower." If KG are white swords, the NW are... say it with me... ;) So when Jon dream that he is armored in black ice with his blade "burning red in his fist," it's almost like HE is the black sword, burning red. And btw I take "burning red" to mean burning. I've seen someone try to parse that and I didn't buy it. Burning means burning. Fire. That sword was on fire with red flame, I don't see any other interpretation.

Also very cool. Especially on the NW.

 

On Tyrion--the diamond pattern is interesting. But Jon's epiphany is an set of consecutive scenes, like his winning of Longclaw. I think that leads more to Dawn than Oathkeeper.

[Sly Wren]

 

The daynes hold it until a worthy Dayne wielder rises. 

Jon Snow had some distant Dayne blood through Maekar's wife Dyanna Dayne.

However, this does not mean he is a man of House Dayne. 

I can see little Ned had Dawn with him and fight the others with Jon, then somehow failed then trusted the Dawn to Jon to finish the final war. 

But I can not imagine House Dayne chose Jon Snow as their next sword of morning due to his Dayne blood from dyanna Dayne. 

Yes--"rises." That's the phrase Martin gives us re: Sword of the Morning: "Dawn remains at Starfall until another Sword of the Morning shall rise."http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P75/

 

Not chosen by committee. Not voted on. Not competed for. "Rise."

 

That's really sounds like a mystical choosing, not a traditional bestowing--like Jaime gives Oathkeeper to Brienne. Jon is the only one in text with a current interaction with the Sword of the Morning. And it's a mystical epiphany. 

 

There are lots of King Arthur traces in the novels--Arthur, tower of joy, special sword. Now the Sword has appeared in a time of need. We know in text that magical swords have some will--Ice does NOT want to be split and colored. The idea that Dawn chooses its wielder, that the Sword of the Morning is chosen magically through worth--it fits with what we have on page so far.

 

But that's all Martin has given us. The Sword of the Morning must rise. We do not know how this is chosen. Could Jon have enough Dayne blood via Rhaegar or does he need to be Arthur's son? No idea. Books do not say.

 

But so far in the novels, Jon and only Jon has had a vision of the Sword in time of need. Jon and only Jon has earned a magical sword, NOT via inheritance but through valor, and had it bestowed on him by its rightful owner while keeping the name intact and fitting him.

 

That's all on page. Really think he's the Sword of the Morning.

[Sly Wren]

Ok, let me throw in some relevant stuff from Silmarillion.

 

"There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves, neither will it abide with you long."

 

Anglachel was the sword forged by Eöl the Dark Elf from a meteorite. Its mate was Anguirel. The blade was black but also glowed and was so hard that it could easily slice through iron. It was said that it was imbued with Eöl's malice and was apparently sentient.

 

Anglachel is described as being forged from the "iron that fell from heaven as a flaming star" or a meteorite. According to Melian, Eöl's dark malice is left in the sword.

 

Christopher Tolkien notes that Anglachel contains the Sindarin word ang ("iron") and probably the element lhach ("leaping flame"). This would give the meaning "Flaming Iron". The last element in Anglachel could be êl ("star"). So, the sword literally means “Flaming Iron Star”.

 

Anglachel seems to have held a certain level of sentient awareness, poured into it from Eöl: it was fierce and bloodthirsty, drinking the blood of those it bit. "From no blood wilt thou shrink." said Turin after seeing it unharmed by the scorching blood of Glaurung. Nevertheless, innocent blood left a terrible shroud of grief on the sword, and it remembered: when it spoke to Turin it named two especially whose innocent blood it had drunk: Beleg, slain by mischance, and Brandir slain unjustly. It was also said to "mourn" for Beleg, and to "rejoice" when unsheathed in war.

 

Recall that Eöl was both a smith and a sorcerer who ended up killing his wife. AA anyone?

 

Turin had it reforged and named it Gurthang "Iron of Death”. Túrin himself became known as Mormegil, the "Black Sword".

 

It was used to slay the most evil dragon. In the end, Turin (the most tragic hero) committed suicide with it.

 

There is a lot to think about.

Amen--this is really cool. And a lot to play with.

 

Are you going with the idea of Dawn's having a sibling sword? Both Dawn and the original Ice?

 

Was also thinking about the twin swords we have in text: Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

 

They were forged against their will from a sword taken from a fallen man. They resist what Mott (hired by the maybe-not-evil-but-definitely-not virtuous Tywin) does to defile them.

 

And both Jaime and Brienne have AAR imagery tied to them. 

 

 

I agree. I have seen a lot of parallels between Anglachel and Dawn too. 

Black sword and white sword. Both forged by a shooting star. Held by the deadliest man in their time. 

Turin used it to slay a dragon and also Morgoth and thus saved the whole world. Maybe Jon would do it also. 

Good guy beleg was killed then turin claimed the sword for himself. Arthur was killed then made the sword available again. 

I can see somebody (ned or darkstar) was killed somehow and then Jon took it. 

by the way, turin married his sister, his worst deed. I think Jon will somehow fall into some incest marriage too. 

1. The monster--back to the AAR imagery. I like it. I've no idea what Jon is actually going to do when he learns his identity and I don't think the world will be saved by one hero--but you're right. Martin is working with these images a lot.

 

2. On the incest--really think that more with Jaime. His relationship with Cersei has been disastrous. The idea that he might end up killing her has come up a lot. And again--twin/split swords. Twisted from original purpose. Brienne seems like she could redeem Oathkeeper. But am wondering what Widow's Wail might get used for. . . 

 

I now need to re-read the Silmarillion.

[purple-eyes]

Yes--"rises." That's the phrase Martin gives us re: Sword of the Morning: "Dawn remains at Starfall until another Sword of the Morning shall rise."http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P75/

 

Not chosen by committee. Not voted on. Not competed for. "Rise."

 

That's really sounds like a mystical choosing, not a traditional bestowing--like Jaime gives Oathkeeper to Brienne. Jon is the only one in text with a current interaction with the Sword of the Morning. And it's a mystical epiphany. 

 

There are lots of King Arthur traces in the novels--Arthur, tower of joy, special sword. Now the Sword has appeared in a time of need. We know in text that magical swords have some will--Ice does NOT want to be split and colored. The idea that Dawn chooses its wielder, that the Sword of the Morning is chosen magically through worth--it fits with what we have on page so far.

 

But that's all Martin has given us. The Sword of the Morning must rise. We do not know how this is chosen. Could Jon have enough Dayne blood via Rhaegar or does he need to be Arthur's son? No idea. Books do not say.

 

But so far in the novels, Jon and only Jon has had a vision of the Sword in time of need. Jon and only Jon has earned a magical sword, NOT via inheritance but through valor, and had it bestowed on him by its rightful owner while keeping the name intact and fitting him.

 

That's all on page. Really think he's the Sword of the Morning.

 

I said he can use Dawn at some point as his lightbringer. It is quite possible. 

I agree Sword Dawn may choose the owner by its own will too. It is likely to be a smart sword like Anglachel. 

What I am trying to say is that he did not get to use this sword due to his distant Dayne blood from Dyanna Dayne. 

If by any chance Dawn chose Jon, that will be something happened after Dawn was activated or reforged. 

Nothing related to his dayne blood from Rhaegar's great great great grandma. 

[Sly Wren]

 

I said he can use Dawn at some point as his lightbringer. It is quite possible. 

I agree Sword Dawn may choose the owner by its own will too. It is likely to be a smart sword like Anglachel. 

What I am trying to say is that he did not get to use this sword due to his distant Dayne blood from Dyanna Dayne. 

If by any chance Dawn chose Jon, that will be something happened after Dawn was activated or reforged. 

Nothing related to his dayne blood from Rhaegar's great great great grandma. 

Ah--apologies. I misunderstood where you were going with this.

 

Yes--I think the fact that Jon earns Longclaw could make his need for direct Dayne blood unnecessary--or at least less necessary. And the idea that he'd need to give it back--Ned returns the sword to Starfall and no one takes it up. Seems like when its job is done, it goes to Starfall--like the Lady of the Lake. Only question--does Jon return it per se, or, if it chose him, would it only be returned on his death? Not at all sure.

[purple-eyes]

Ah--apologies. I misunderstood where you were going with this.

 

Yes--I think the fact that Jon earns Longclaw could make his need for direct Dayne blood unnecessary--or at least less necessary. And the idea that he'd need to give it back--Ned returns the sword to Starfall and no one takes it up. Seems like when its job is done, it goes to Starfall--like the Lady of the Lake. Only question--does Jon return it per se, or, if it chose him, would it only be returned on his death? Not at all sure.

 

Same question with longclaw. 

If Jon died or he got a better sword, what will happen to longclaw?

He would ask it be returned to Jorah (if he did not die) or his house. 

For dawn, after he is done with it, it should be returned to House dayne. 

[DarkSister1001]

OP, Bravo!  :bowdown:

 

I enjoyed the links regarding Ice/Dawn too.  I think that maybe the Stark who became the NK wielded the original Ice, made by the Others and his Queen.  When he was put down by a Dayne his sword was given to him in thanks. 

[raegal_targaryen]

:cheers: Thank you!

 

 

:cheers: Thanks!

 

I like the reverse-Persephone for Ygritte. She keeps him in the cave with sex instead of pomegranates. And she makes it very clear she sees the cave as its own underground world with Gendel and Gorne's children.

 

I only nodded at this because I was trying to streamline the argument as much as possible (she says after posting a three page argument)--but Ygritte also has Nimue/Vivienne/Lady of the Lake imagery in the Storm Jon III chapter I discussed first.

 

Lady of the Lake imagery isn't my forte, but there are a number of legends. In some, Nimue/Vivienne doesn't just lure Merlin into the cave and ply him with sex. She's also involved in the giving of Excalibur--like the Lady of the Lake. And the water imagery in the cave--a bit like a baptism--Jon's old self buried in water (the literal meaning of baptism) to rise as a new person emerging from the cave.

 

But the Lady of the Lake presents Excalibur in time of need--Jon needed that restoration of identity. A new sense of self for all he'd lost--and SWORD! Presented in time of need.

 

And agree on the corn king and reborn deities. Jon is reborn when he emerges from the cave from his own determination. Will need some kind of rebirth after an excess of NW knives. 

 

I like this!! The rose represent Lya's specific sacrifice to bring her son to life. Her death which brings a new spring--even in the ice. Like Jon. Very nice.

 

1. I've read and like both your and Voice's theories. I actually originally referenced Voice's at the end of the argument and it didn't get copied over--will have to edit the post in a minute.

 

2. Agree that whether Ice and Dawn are who they say they are (can swords assert identity?) or if they were switched--my argument works. Jon wants to earn his father's sword. If "father" is Arthur (or Rhaegar via Dayne line), Jon is earning Dawn. If Ice is what Jon needs, Ned is Jon's "father" in every way that counts. 

 

Bottom line: switched or not--the "father" part of Jon's sword yearnings would work.

 

3. As for which one Jon needs--I lean towards the Sword of the Morning and Dawn because Jon sees that epiphany fully awake. No shade of the evening. No weirwood paste. The first two sections of my OP are just following Martin's actual chapter structure--he lays it out straight. Jon III to the beginning of Jon IV--Martin sets up the epiphany and then delivers. Delivers the Sword of the Morning at Dawn to Jon.

 

And it comes not just after Jon's despair, but before the climbing of the Wall and all the actual and symbolic dangers of that. If the swords were switched (you and Voice make excellent cases for a switch), this changes. But, for now. really seems like Jon needs Dawn.

 

HA! I actively snipped that quote you started with because I was trying so hard to keep very focused.

 

The amount of stuff I could have put in here would have made the argument 10 times longer.

 

You're right--there's a pale stone reference to the Daynes. But I stuck with what I think is the more direct point of the scene. Longclaw is not Jon's sword by blood. But when he gets it, the name and sword remain intact. They perfectly fit a wolf--nothing of the efficacy of the sword is lost.

 

Whereas when Tywin has Ice melted down--the sword is desecrated. Tywin had no right to reforge the stolen sword of a murdered man. Half goes to Joffrey--the worm-boy who murdered Ned. Jaime's giving Oathkeeper to Brienne--it's a kind of redemption for Ice. Back to a Stark-oriented purpose.

 

But Jaime really didn't have the right to re-name or re-bestow Ice. Mormont does. It's his sword. His family--he has the right. He passes it on to Jon for valor. The name and the sword are intact. For me, that's the focus of the sword pommel--it's pale and a wolf vs. bear, but it fits the sword. 

 

Yup--the above is why I am still not sure re: Ice. Is Jon dreaming of black ice and red sword because that's literally what will happen? Is he in black ice because the Wall looks like black ice in the complete dark? Will he be armed with black Ice? 

 

It is worth noting the point you've probably already noted--he's not wielding black Ice. He's armored in black ice, wielding a sword that burns red. Does it burn red per se, or just glows/reflects the fire?

 

I'm not yet ready to throw down one way or another. But will come back to the point I made above--Jon sees the Sword of the Morning awake and under this influence of nothing but hope. He's questioning his identity in the previous chapter. And the Sword of the Morning--an identity--is his answer/epiphany. Gotta think that has weight.

 

HA!  Don't apologize for lots of quotes--as I said, the amount I cut trying to make my argument easy to scan would fill volumes.

 

Excellent stuff on the black and red imagery. And the chaining colors of defiled Ice are fascinating. It's resisting defilement. Resisting the break of its identity--a will of its own. Remaining black Ice as much as it can. And any red that does make its way in is an abomination.

 

So, can the "personality" of the sword change because it was defiled?

i have a diffrent take on what u wrote about ice....its black right used to be stark, than changing in with color red and what do u have than a targaryen banner.....

[LmL]

Ok, let me throw in some relevant stuff from Silmarillion.

 

"There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves, neither will it abide with you long."

 

Anglachel was the sword forged by Eöl the Dark Elf from a meteorite. Its mate was Anguirel. The blade was black but also glowed and was so hard that it could easily slice through iron. It was said that it was imbued with Eöl's malice and was apparently sentient.

 

Anglachel is described as being forged from the "iron that fell from heaven as a flaming star" or a meteorite. According to Melian, Eöl's dark malice is left in the sword.

 

Christopher Tolkien notes that Anglachel contains the Sindarin word ang ("iron") and probably the element lhach ("leaping flame"). This would give the meaning "Flaming Iron". The last element in Anglachel could be êl ("star"). So, the sword literally means “Flaming Iron Star”.

 

Anglachel seems to have held a certain level of sentient awareness, poured into it from Eöl: it was fierce and bloodthirsty, drinking the blood of those it bit. "From no blood wilt thou shrink." said Turin after seeing it unharmed by the scorching blood of Glaurung. Nevertheless, innocent blood left a terrible shroud of grief on the sword, and it remembered: when it spoke to Turin it named two especially whose innocent blood it had drunk: Beleg, slain by mischance, and Brandir slain unjustly. It was also said to "mourn" for Beleg, and to "rejoice" when unsheathed in war.

 

Recall that Eöl was both a smith and a sorcerer who ended up killing his wife. AA anyone?

 

Turin had it reforged and named it Gurthang "Iron of Death”. Túrin himself became known as Mormegil, the "Black Sword".

 

It was used to slay the most evil dragon. In the end, Turin (the most tragic hero) committed suicide with it.

 

There is a lot to think about.

 

 

All of this is lovely for my "Lightbringer was a nasty, soul drinking black weapon" theory. Not sure that any of this applies to Dawn, but it is one in a long line of black swords in fantasy novels - Moorcock's Eric of Melnibone and Steven Erickson's Anomander Rake both are tall albinoes who wield black swords which drink blood and soul juice and are somewhat alive. Very similar to the Tolkein stuff here. And identical to everything I have theorized about Lightbringer. Black sword, moon meteor, sinister aspect. But like Anglachel, Lightbringer may have served one valid purpose, as the Last Hero's dragonsteel... if it was LH's dragonsteel. But that could be Dawn as well, as I said above. It's one of the things I am most anxious to figure out. Both Dawn and Lightbringer are made from meteorites, according to my theory, so both could be dragonsteel.

Stil, I wonder how a sword with only icy imagery like Dawn could slay Others. It seems like a bigger, badass version of an Others's sword. I would think that mofo would be able to kill fire dragons. 

[LmL]

[snip]

 

Also very cool. Especially on the NW.

 

On Tyrion--the diamond pattern is interesting. But Jon's epiphany is an set of consecutive scenes, like his winning of Longclaw. I think that leads more to Dawn than Oathkeeper.

 

 

My idea was that the diamond - glass - beam of light phrase next to Oathkeeper may indicate that the original sword of the morning was not Dawn, that was my point. I totally agree with your reasoning about the epiphany, as far as he saw it among other constellations before and the second time it is alone, and after Jon's ritualistic death... I get it, and I like it. My point is that if Dawn was originally Ice, then the first SOTM may have wielded the black steel for which the Dornishman is famous. ;)  I'm not certain by any means - but I think it's a possibility to consider. All of your analysis could be correct, but if the original Dawn was Lightbringer, not the white sword we see now, it simply changes which sword Jon is getting. The rest of your analysis is still untroubled in this scenario. 

 

OP, Bravo!  :bowdown:

 

I enjoyed the links regarding Ice/Dawn too.  I think that maybe the Stark who became the NK wielded the original Ice, made by the Others and his Queen.  When he was put down by a Dayne his sword was given to him in thanks. 

 

And the Dayne would be using what sword to put down the NK / King of Winter? Probably that black steel motherfucker with the cold bite...  Just remember that the only historical precedent for a Dayne going to the Wall is Vorian Dayne, who was the "Sword of the Evening." I think George is big into the wheel of time concept of echoing past events in current events, and I feel like I have found a lot of these, Vorian Dayne included. The sword of the evening tends to make me think of Lightbringer, the sword which (I believe) is associated with the cause of the Long Night, the sword which brought darkness and nightfall. And again, using a fire sword to fight ice demons makes a lot of sense, while using an ice sword to slay a fire-sorceror like Azor Ahai also makes a lot of sense, at least to me. 

 

Of course, "nothing burns like the cold," so what the fuck. Who knows. 

[LmL]

Sly Wren, see what you make of this quote, especially given all the "daggers in the darkness:"

 

As she slept amidst the rolling grasslands, Catelyn dreamt that Bran was whole again, that Arya and Sansa held hands, that Rickon was still a babe at her breast. Robb, crownless, played with a wooden sword, and when all were safe asleep, she found Ned in her bed, smiling. Sweet it was, sweet and gone too soon. Dawn came cruel, a dagger of light.  

(ACOK, Catelyn)

 

Cat is fantasizing about a happier time when Robb was not the King of Winter. But Dawn came cruel, a dagger of light, and popped that illusion. Robb IS the King of Winter.

 

Tyrion could hear the rumble of the foemen’s drums now. He remembered Robb Stark as he had last seen him, in his father’s high seat in the Great Hall of Winterfell, a sword naked and shining in his hands. He remembered how the direwolves had come at him out of the shadows, and suddenly he could see them again, snarling and snapping, teeth bared in his face. Would the boy bring his wolves to war with him? The thought made him uneasy. The northerners would be exhausted after their long sleepless march. Tyrion wondered what the boy had been thinking. Did he think to take them unawares while they slept? Small chance of that; whatever else might be said of him, Tywin Lannister was no man’s fool.  (ACOK, Tyrion)

 

Her son’s crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn Stark that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb’s head. The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster’s smith had done his work well, and Robb’s crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

 

This is the first Cat chapter of ACOK, and the first appearance of crowned Robb. He sits enthroned as the King of Winter, and he looks just like the stone Kings of Winter in the crypts:

 

When the guards brought in the captive, Robb called for his sword. Olyvar Frey offered it up hilt first, and her son drew the blade and laid it bare across his knees, a threat plain for all to see. “Your Grace, here is the man you asked for,” announced Ser Robin Ryger, captain of the Tully household guard.

[...]

“Rise, Ser Cleos.” Her son’s voice was not as icy as his father’s would have been, but he did not sound a boy of fifteen either. War had made a man of him before his time. Morning light glimmered faintly against the edge of the steel across his knees.

 

Yet it was not the sword that made Ser Cleos Frey anxious; it was the beast. Grey Wind, her son had named him. A direwolf large as any elkhound, lean and smoke-dark, with eyes like molten gold. When the beast padded forward and sniffed at the captive knight, every man in that hall could smell the scent of fear. Ser Cleos had been taken during the battle in the Whispering Wood, where Grey Wind had ripped out the throats of half a dozen men.

[...]

“Secondly, my lord father’s bones will be returned to us, so he may rest beside his brother and sister in the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he would have wished. The remains of the men of his household guard who died in his service at King’s Landing must also be returned.”

 

Living men had gone south, and cold bones would return. Ned had the truth of it, she thought. His place was at Winterfell, he said as much, but would I hear him? No. Go, I told him, you must be Robert’s Hand, for the good of our House, for the sake of our children … my doing, mine, no other …

 

“Third, my father’s greatsword Ice will be delivered to my hand, here at Riverrun.” She watched her brother Ser Edmure Tully as he stood with his thumbs hooked over his swordbelt, his face as still as stone. (ACOK, Catelyn)

 

Again, we are faced with the confusion of what is intended when Ned's Ice is referred to. Does this mean that the King of Winter should have a black sword, or that he should have the original Ice (Dawn)? The morning light is pretty suggestive of Dawn, but he wears a dark metal crown and has shadowy, smoky beasts with eyes of molten gold and other fiery descriptors at various times. Both of those indicate fire-power. The Others hate the touch of iron, it is said, which lines up with dark metals fighting the cold. Honestly I am still trying to unpack this scene but it seems pretty fucking relevant, given that Robb is exactly mimicking the Kings of Winter, with the sword across the lap and the wolf at his side.  Also, if you interpret "Grey Wind" as a grey wind (a stretch, I know) we have a reference to the grey mists of Bran's dream and the cold winds which come "howling" out of the North. The King of Winter, with a grey wind at his side - are you getting the picture here? 

 

A bit more on Robb, King of Winter, and his connection to the Others:
 

Others were waiting to offer Robb their consolations, so Catelyn stood aside patiently while Lord Jason Mallister, the Greatjon, and Ser Rolph Spicer spoke to him each in turn. But when Lothar Frey approached, she gave his sleeve a tug. Robb turned, and waited to hear what Lothar would say. 

—

Lothar bowed, kissed the queen’s hand, and withdrew. By then a dozen others had gathered for a word. Robb spoke with them each, giving a thanks here, a smile there, as needed. Only when the last of them was done did he turn back to Catelyn. “There is something we must speak of. Will you walk with me?” 

 

“As you command, Your Grace.” 

 

“That wasn’t a command, Mother.” 

 

“It will be my pleasure, then.” Her son had treated her kindly enough since returning to Riverrun, yet he seldom sought her out. If he was more comfortable with his young queen, she could scarcely blame him. Jeyne makes him smile, and I have nothing to share with him but grief. He seemed to enjoy the company of his bride’s brothers, as well; young Rollam his squire and Ser Raynald his standard-bearer. They are standing in the boots of those he’s lost, Catelyn realized when she watched them together. Rollam has taken Bran’s place, and Raynald is part Theon and part Jon Snow. Only with the Westerlings did she see Robb smile, or hear him laugh like the boy he was. To the others he was always the King in the North, head bowed beneath the weight of the crown even when his brows were bare.

—

She clutched tight at his hand. “Nothing will happen to you. Nothing. I could not stand it. They took Ned, and your sweet brothers. Sansa is married, Arya is lost, my father’s dead … if anything befell you, I would go mad, Robb. You are all I have left. You are all the north has left.” 

 

“I am not dead yet, Mother.” 

 

Suddenly Catelyn was full of dread. “Wars need not be fought until the last drop of blood.” Even she could hear the desperation in her voice. “You would not be the first king to bend the knee, nor even the first Stark.” 

 

So not every use of the word "others" is a double entendre, but some of them are, and here we get three in a row which all make sense as references to the others. Robb is the KoW to the Others; he's surrounded by Others; the Others are filling the boots of those who are dead; and we see the 1 + 12 math of the Last Hero and possibly the NK. 

We also have a possible "First King" reference (that's the other name for the Barrow King), and a first Stark reference, hinting at the origin of the Starks having to do with the King of Winter (of course) and the Others (as many have suspected). The King of Winter will ultimately end up dead, although the original was undead, I suspect. 

 

“Yes.” He turned away and drew his sword. What he meant to do with it, she could not say. There was no enemy there, no one to fight. Only her and him, amongst tall trees and fallen leaves. There are fights no sword can win, Catelyn wanted to tell him, but she feared the king was deaf to such words.

 

This may be a hint that the Last Hero subdued the others through something besides mere swordplay, an idea many have proposed.  If the Last hero had original Ice (Dawn), an icy weapon, then perhaps the LH did not slay the Others, but somehow compelled them. If Dawn is Ice, then that's like the king of all Others swords. Maybe it commands them or binds them to his will. Hell maybe the Last Hero gave his life to make Ice, or somehow sacrificed himself. I'm sort of giving you the range of ideas that I have been considering here, maybe some of this jogs something loose for you.

 

Also from that passage:

Robb’s face was cold. [...]

 

Robb gave him a chilly look. [...]

 

“The Others take his pride! I will not be shamed in my own hall. My answer is no.” (Edmure speaking)

 

“The Others take you all! Very well, I’ll wed the wench. As amends.” (Edmure again)

 

ETA: I guess I kind of buried the lead here... we know that the NK was supposedly cast down by his brother, Brandon the Breaker... and I wonder if Jon and Robb aren't somehow replaying some sort of brotherly roles here. There's also the bit about Jon dreaming of usurping Robb... and Jon has his own "King of Winter" / Lord Snow imagery going on too. There's also Robb's will naming Jon his heir.  What I am saying is that we probably need to unravel a lot of these things together to figure out which sword which person may have had or is supposed to have. The King of Winter, the Night's King, the Last Hero, Azor Ahai. They are all connected with each other and with the two swords. (Two "lightbringer" swords is my hypothesis of course, not fact, just to be clear.)