From Death to Dawn: Jon Will Rise and The Sword of the Morning

[LmL]

As I said above to SW, when you step back to look at it, there is a striking parallel between Dany's relationship with her dragons and the Stark's relationship with their dire wolves. It is something that is exciting to both when they are first discovered yet both groups eventually try to flee the connection, especially Bran, Jon and Robb. At this point Bran appears to have come the farthest in this regards. He had to accept his bond with Summer in order to control the bond. This might be exactly the challenge Dany is facing.

 

I agree on this 100%. Jon was still denying the bond when he was killed. Locking Ghost up is very similar to Dany locking her dragons up isn't it? 

 

What's really odd is that Mel encourages Jon to use the power in his wolf. She wants to burn weirwoods, but she's pro-skinchanger? What gives there I wonder?

[Voice]

I've always wondered if the Night's Watch is fodder for the Wall's spells.  I mean if you needed to tap into the protective magic of the Wall to keep out the Others, as opposed to the wights, you would probably need a large blood sacrifice and we've been told by Ygritte that death and blood built the thing.  So how to get enough people that far north for such a large sacrifice?  Keep them there, always.

 

Very cynical I know!

 

LOL! Not cynical at all, imo. That sounds quite plausible. Mayhaps that is how the tradition of sending sentenced criminals to the Watch began. :devil:

 

Maybe--I've been reading the sweetness of the blue rose as Ned's thought that Lyanna loved the scent of roses. He directly mentions the scent.

 

That and the scent of the room where she dies--blood and roses. But with Jon--just the scent of roses. Not the blood (and attendant death).

 

On changing nature--if Arthur is Jon's father, he still fought Ned at the tower--he was still a KG. So, his nature didn't change in that regard.

 

Arthur definitely kept his original nature. I agree re blood and roses, but do not remember Ned mentioning the scent until he found Lyanna in her bloody bed.

 

Still, in any scenario, I'm not sure how or why Dany would see an image in the HotU based on Ned's impression of Lyanna, which is what both of our interps are based on...

 

I suppose it could be chalked up to the impersonal nature of the majority of Dany's visions...

 

A prayer that activates the magic of the gate.

 

What happens when the Long Night comes, they are on the Wall with Dawn, and then say the vow?

 

What I'm wondering is what happens when the Night's King approaches his gate.

[Lady Dyanna]

I think you've already said it.  The shadow of her wings.  With fire comes shadow and she doesn't know that yet.  She's learning, particularly when the dragons start burning people.  She has a choice to make there, and she is already choosing the dragons, though doing what she can to minimize the consequences.  But there are going to be some huge shadows ahead as a consequence of the dragons.  She needs to minimize those shadows beforehand with forethought.  I do think we will see a huge catastrophe before she learns that.

:agree: I think a lot of what we've seen so far with Dany has been a part of this learning curve. We've seen her denial of the connection and now we've started to see her acceptance of it. How long will it take her and/ or will she be able to exert control over the bond will need to come after.

I for one would be very excited to see you do an OP on the connections for the world book. I never noticed this myself but it certainly rings true. I know there are a ton of parallels and echoes throughout this series. Have you by chance read Kingmonkey's Puppet Master thread? He points out several of the echoes in it, but I think there are quite a few more and possibly of several different events as well. I'm currently trying to look at Sansa's chapter at the Eyrie with the snow castle scene. I think that a lot of at the very least second part of the chapter is an Echo scene. The description of the throne room is quite evocative of Starfall and Sansa is paralleled to Lyanne through wardrobe and Marillion's song. Then there's the first part of that chapter with Sansa's own journey into the underworld down a spiral stair and into a world of black and white and greys.

[Voice]

I agree on this 100%. Jon was still denying the bond when he was killed. Locking Ghost up is very similar to Dany locking her dragons up isn't it? 

 

What's really odd is that Mel encourages Jon to use the power in his wolf. She wants to burn weirwoods, but she's pro-skinchanger? What gives there I wonder?

 

I quite mistrust Mel, but still find myself with some shame for the mistrust. Given Ghost's reaction to her, maybe she really will be the one to resurrect Jon. I'd rather she not be involved, but it does seem rather likely.

[LmL]

It's weird - she says, "There is power in the wolf, and in you, if you care to use it" (paraphrase) and then goes on to pitch the shadow baby idea to Jon. What exactly is she suggesting, re: Ghost? Does she want to use Ghost's power by burning him or something? other that or she is ok with skinchanging. 

 

Of course, Mel is Bloodraven's daughter, so she might have some skinchanger ability as well, which might explain Ghost's reaction. Still, Mel's hold on Ghost was stronger than Jon's at that moment, so likely there was some other magic. 

 

Does tho suggest a skinchanger's beast might be turned against them through magic? That's pretty sinister...

[Lady Barbrey]

:agree: I think a lot of what we've seen so far with Dany has been a part of this learning curve. We've seen her denial of the connection and now we've started to see her acceptance of it. How long will it take her and/ or will she be able to exert control over the bond will need to come after.

I for one would be very excited to see you do an OP on the connections for the world book. I never noticed this myself but it certainly rings true. I know there are a ton of parallels and echoes throughout this series. Have you by chance read Kingmonkey's Puppet Master thread? He points out several of the echoes in it, but I think there are quite a few more and possibly of several different events as well. I'm currently trying to look at Sansa's chapter at the Eyrie with the snow castle scene. I think that a lot of at the very least second part of the chapter is an Echo scene. The description of the throne room is quite evocative of Starfall and Sansa is paralleled to Lyanne through wardrobe and Marillion's song. Then there's the first part of that chapter with Sansa's own journey into the underworld down a spiral stair and into a world of black and white and greys.

Thanks I will look at the puppetmaster thread.  And would love to hear your own theory, especially if colour leeches out of the scene.  For mine, I have to say I'm hesitating out of sheer laziness.  I can't pull quotes so will have to re-type whole sections of the world book.

[Lady Barbrey]

It's weird - she says, "There is power in the wolf, and in you, if you care to use it" (paraphrase) and then goes on to pitch the shadow baby idea to Jon. What exactly is she suggesting, re: Ghost? Does she want to use Ghost's power by burning him or something? other that or she is ok with skinchanging. 

 

Of course, Mel is Bloodraven's daughter, so she might have some skinchanger ability as well, which might explain Ghost's reaction. Still, Mel's hold on Ghost was stronger than Jon's at that moment, so likely there was some other magic. 

 

Does tho suggest a skinchanger's beast might be turned against them through magic? That's pretty sinister...

I considered the Bloodraven/Mel relationship as well as perhaps being behind it.  You are right that it is weird, and I have no idea.  I think there is much more to skinchanging that we realize.  My own crackpot right now is that Arya has been carrying  a little bit of Rhaenys Targaryan with her ever since accidentally skinchanging the black cat in King's Landing.  It's not as crackpot as all that though, just enough evidence there that if Arya rides a dragon, there is a reason for it other than her being a secret Targ.  She's got a "dark heart" passenger!

 

Also, if Mel is Bloodraven's daughter she might have a bit of the warg in her herself?  I'm just coming up to some Melisandre parts in my re-read and will look closely.  I have to say re-reading these novels is really slow going this time around.  I read GOT in 1996 and page-turned through it quickly!  This time around, I had to read every word in case it carried a double meaning.

[LmL]

I considered the Bloodraven/Mel relationship as well as perhaps being behind it.  You are right that it is weird, and I have no idea.  I think there is much more to skinchanging that we realize.  My own crackpot right now is that Arya has been carrying  a little bit of Rhaenys Targaryan with her ever since accidentally skinchanging the black cat in King's Landing.  It's not as crackpot as all that though, just enough evidence there that if Arya rides a dragon, there is a reason for it other than her being a secret Targ.  She's got a "dark heart" passenger!
 
Also, if Mel is Bloodraven's daughter she might have a bit of the warg in her herself?  I'm just coming up to some Melisandre parts in my re-read and will look closely.  I have to say re-reading these novels is really slow going this time around.  I read GOT in 1996 and page-turned through it quickly!  This time around, I had to read every word in case it carried a double meaning.

I keep hearing about this Arya / back cat stuff, but I haven't looked for it. Maybe I'll have to... I'm open minded to most anything if there is text to support.

So... you don't do the audiobook thing? That's how I do it. It's so handy, because it's linked to my ebook. If I word search a passage, I can open audible and listen right at that spot. Or if I suddenly want to hear the Coldhands introduction chapter because I just thought of something, I can just go right to it on my iPad.

Of course the best part of audiobooks is the ability to read ASOIAF while you drive, clean, work, etc. :)

I would be nothing without my ebook and audiobook.

[Lady Dyanna]

 
I agree on this 100%. Jon was still denying the bond when he was killed. Locking Ghost up is very similar to Dany locking her dragons up isn't it?

:agree:
 

What's really odd is that Mel encourages Jon to use the power in his wolf. She wants to burn weirwoods, but she's pro-skinchanger? What gives there I wonder?

I never really thought of it that way. You make an interesting point. Will have to think that over.

[Lady Barbrey]

 

LOL! Not cynical at all, imo. That sounds quite plausible. Mayhaps that is how the tradition of sending sentenced criminals to the Watch began. :devil:

 

I know, or unwanted bastards and extra sons.  I mean it would still be considered honorable to be a sacrifice, wouldn't it?  And no children or wives to mourn you afterwards because of the vows?  The old men of the north sacrifice themselves when food is scarce.  Why not this?  But I'm glad you guys laughed, I once said something like it on another forum and got jumped.  Just as I did when I mentioned Arthur Dayne might be Jon's father, which you seem to consider a possibiity.  I'm not swayed too much by it but open to it.  I think he loved her anyway just based on Arthuriana, which he is so closely related to.

 

 

Arthur definitely kept his original nature. I agree re blood and roses, but do not remember Ned mentioning the scent until he found Lyanna in her bloody bed.

 

Still, in any scenario, I'm not sure how or why Dany would see an image in the HotU based on Ned's impression of Lyanna, which is what both of our interps are based on...

 

It's also in Dany's fire trance right at the beginning of the books that she sees a grey smoke horse with a burning blue mane.  The gray of the Starks, the blue of the winter crown.  Burning blue fire is mentioned a number of times.  I've already related what I think it means in Jaime's vision on the weirwood stump with the burning blue flame swords.  But this is interesting to me because I think that vision was sent, and it was sent by Bloodraven in the weirwood.  Remember Varys?  The sorceror story?  The fire from which the God spoke burned "blue".  Though he's a Targaryan, Bloodraven seems all Blackwood to me, and most of his powers, even in the Hedge Knight book, can be attributed to CotF type powers.  But he was also a sorceror, we're told, so I do wonder if when he uses sorcery and flame, it burns blue rather than red.  In fact, I wonder if a number of the events at Harrenhal were not set up by Bloodraven in order to get the promised prince.  

 

Blue winter roses - beautiful, pure, cold but inspiring, and on the flip side threatening, tragedy and death.  Flowers for spring, flowers for a funeral.  When I think of the blue winter rose in a chink in a Wall, I think of the Wall punctured - there is a hole in it and something blue is getting through.

 

I suppose it could be chalked up to the impersonal nature of the majority of Dany's visions...

 

 

What I'm wondering is what happens when the Night's King approaches his gate.

 

Do you think it's the same Night's King with the Others?  I'm not sure I buy that but open.

[Lady Barbrey]

I keep hearing about this Arya / back cat stuff, but I haven't looked for it. Maybe I'll have to... I'm open minded to most anything if there is text to support.

So... you don't do the audiobook thing? That's how I do it. It's so handy, because it's linked to my ebook. If I word search a passage, I can open audible and listen right at that spot. Or if I suddenly want to hear the Coldhands introduction chapter because I just thought of something, I can just go right to it on my iPad.

Of course the best part of audiobooks is the ability to read ASOIAF while you drive, clean, work, etc. :)

I would be nothing without my ebook and audiobook.

How do you pull quotes?  Does your ebook allow it?  Everyone seems to be doing it on the forums and I'm not sure how.

[Lady Dyanna]

Thanks I will look at the puppetmaster thread.  And would love to hear your own theory, especially if colour leeches out of the scene.  For mine, I have to say I'm hesitating out of sheer laziness.  I can't pull quotes so will have to re-type whole sections of the world book.

I haven't gotten very far as of yet. I just happened to notice the colors fading to b&w when Sansa goes down a spiral stair and out into the garden of snow. I think there's a lot of foreshadowing in the scene that follows. Then I kept reading and when Sansa later goes to meet Lysa in the throne room I caught that echo feeling. I have a thread open over on The Last Hearth trying to do a reread and SW has been helping me out. I haven't had a lot of time to put into it as of yet unfortunately.

At this point, if I were you, I would hesitate putting a lot of work into an OP here until after the update. Or at the very least keep your own copy. I can't believe the your kindle won't let you pull over quotes. I wouldn't get by without mine. Have you tried to just copy and paste, put the quote commands in by hand later?

[LmL]

Yep. That's it exactly. Highlight, copy, paste. I usually pull quotes into notepad directories organized by topic as I see them. I have probably 50 categories. "Jon Snow = Others" , "three impacts patterns" "Gods Eye / one eyed seers" "trees as greenseers" etc etc.

[Lady Barbrey]

Yep. That's it exactly. Highlight, copy, paste. I usually pull quotes into notepad directories organized by topic as I see them. I have probably 50 categories. "Jon Snow = Others" , "three impacts patterns" "Gods Eye / one eyed seers" "trees as greenseers" etc etc.

Tried that and it won't work.  I have the Kindle ebook on my Mac.  Maybe that's why.  I'll look at it again.

[Lady Barbrey]

I haven't gotten very far as of yet. I just happened to notice the colors fading to b&w when Sansa goes down a spiral stair and out into the garden of snow. I think there's a lot of foreshadowing in the scene that follows. Then I kept reading and when Sansa later goes to meet Lysa in the throne room I caught that echo feeling. I have a thread open over on The Last Hearth trying to do a reread and SW has been helping me out. I haven't had a lot of time to put into it as of yet unfortunately.

At this point, if I were you, I would hesitate putting a lot of work into an OP here until after the update. Or at the very least keep your own copy. I can't believe the your kindle won't let you pull over quotes. I wouldn't get by without mine. Have you tried to just copy and paste, put the quote commands in by hand later?

What's the Last Hearth?  I'll take a look.

[Lady Dyanna]

What's the Last Hearth?  I'll take a look.

It's another forum. Very small, forty some people. I really like working on new stuff over there as they're not quite as critical, especially with ideas that might seem a bit out there. I think you can get into all but the chat threads if you're not a member. There's a link in Voice's signature line.

Like I said, I really haven't gotten that far with it yet. Too much going on. Just started looking at that chapter from the beginning, picking the quotes apart. We're only about a page in.

[LmL]

Tried that and it won't work.  I have the Kindle ebook on my Mac.  Maybe that's why.  I'll look at it again.

That's what I have. I use kindle on iPad and home computer, don't have an issue. ???

[Julia H.]

 

Actually, while the "walls" are plural (the vows predate the Wall), the "watcher" is singular.

 

The vows do not really promote unity. If anything, they hammer home (forge) a deep sense of isolation.

 

 

I can agree with that. Each of them has to give up all existing and possible future human relationships, each of them has to accept his fate (voluntary or forced) in his heart alone. The vow is about isolation and a - seemingly - lonely fight (which can indeed be lonely, just take the task Qhorin gave Jon as an example). Of course, they are supposed to find brotherhood in this isolation, but first comes the isolation.  

 

 

Nice. But I must admit I mostly quoted you so I could tag you and compliment your avatar pic. I keep meaning to, and keep forgetting.

 

Thanks.  :)

 

The Old Gods hear the Voice of the First Men.

[butterbumps!]

this went way over 400 posts-- time to open a new one!