From Death to Dawn: Jon Will Rise and The Sword of the Morning

[Ibbison from Ibben]

This was a good read, but after taking some time to evaluate it I can't agree with the OP. Here's why -

 

Jon in the cave with Ygritte isn't a descent into the underworld. Not every case of going underground has to be connected with the underworld/death. Great sex with a hot woman rarely occurs in the underworld. Jon's story here is not about "Death of Self" per se, but is part of a deconstruction arc. If we look at this using Campbell's Monomyth as a guide, Jon is in the Belly of the Whale phase. His character is being torn down, prior to a rebuilding. In the cave, Ygritte talks about Gorne's children. They are not dead, just hopelessly and irreconcilably lost. The disappearance of the stars, particularly the Ice Dragon (the Westerosi pole star constellation)  supports the idea that Jon is faced with the danger of losing his way forever. Yet he survives it.

 

Jon has no epiphany. An epiphany is a a sudden realization or enlightenment. Jon doesn't have that. He just finds some hope, and resolves to continue.

 

Jon doesn't become the Sword of the Morning. He is simply inspired by it. If this is foreshadowing, it would seem to imply that at a time of crisis and despair, Jon will meet the Sword of the Morning and find strength to continue due to that meeting.

 

R+L=J to me is very close to a fact. If so, Jon has very little Dayne blood. You have have to go back to Aegon V's mother to find it. Jon's true ancestral sword isn't Dawn. It is Blackfyre.

 

There's some great stuff here. The OP made some great observations, particularly about Longclaw's temporary nature for Jon. But I'm not buying the main assertion.

[Sly Wren]

My idea was that the diamond - glass - beam of light phrase next to Oathkeeper may indicate that the original sword of the morning was not Dawn, that was my point. I totally agree with your reasoning about the epiphany, as far as he saw it among other constellations before and the second time it is alone, and after Jon's ritualistic death... I get it, and I like it. My point is that if Dawn was originally Ice, then the first SOTM may have wielded the black steel for which the Dornishman is famous. ;)  I'm not certain by any means - but I think it's a possibility to consider. All of your analysis could be correct, but if the original Dawn was Lightbringer, not the white sword we see now, it simply changes which sword Jon is getting. The rest of your analysis is still untroubled in this scenario. 

Very intriguing. I would add that the Daynes are different from the other Dornish--stony Dornish with a different history. 

 

But Jon notes the fact that the song is sung north of the Wall--could just be a product of the way people are sent to the Wall. But could definitely be something else as well. 

 

ETA: I guess I kind of buried the lead here... we know that the NK was supposedly cast down by his brother, Brandon the Breaker... and I wonder if Jon and Robb aren't somehow replaying some sort of brotherly roles here. There's also the bit about Jon dreaming of usurping Robb... and Jon has his own "King of Winter" / Lord Snow imagery going on too. There's also Robb's will naming Jon his heir.  What I am saying is that we probably need to unravel a lot of these things together to figure out which sword which person may have had or is supposed to have. The King of Winter, the Night's King, the Last Hero, Azor Ahai. They are all connected with each other and with the two swords. (Two "lightbringer" swords is my hypothesis of course, not fact, just to be clear.)

I'm going to start here--but can't pretend that you aren't miles ahead of me re: pursuing this line of thought. 

 

That said, here I go: I really like the idea that Jon and Robb are doing a version of the downfall of the Night's King. Jon just did his very convincing Night's King impression, complete with knives. And the Stark children often follow versions of old Stark stories.

 

Plus, it helps explain Jon's beheading Robb in in the dream-fight for the Wall. From the start, Jon wants to be Lord of Winterfell AND knows he shouldn't. He remembers fencing with Robb and winning--"I'm Lord of Winterfell" to have Robb rebuff him. Jon's clash between what he wants and feeling guilty for it--that kid needs therapy. And bandages.

 

So, this is a different kind of NK and Stark in Winterfell. Robb fell first but is lionized--or wolfized. Then Jon falls--what will be the result in the North? Really think (per my OP) that Jon's rising to fight the real threat. The Starks will fight.

 

An I agree that AAR and LH and all those figures are connected to the swords. Which brings me to my own crackpot re: Ice. Ned, de facto King in the North, fell due to treachery. Granted, he fell in the south, but fell and was murdered with Ice. Then Ice--the dark metaled sword with its ties to the King in the North crown--fell due to treachery. Broken, defiled, renamed, split. 

 

Then the brothers who love and honor each other--Robb insists on considering Jon as heir (since we don't know for sure what's in the letter, I'll reserve judgment. But I think Robb made Jon his heir). Robb is raised up as King in the North. Just as Jon is raised up as Lord Commander. Then both fall via treachery--not to each other, but to their followers. They've changed the Night's King narrative (unknowingly).

 

Result? Ice has fallen. So has the King in the North. Robb's crown isn't for the King of Winter--it's for the King in the North. Same with its metals. So, to go way out on a limb--the King in the North and his crown and sword--fallen. And now the new/old Kings of Winter can rise with their sword--Dawn? 

 

Too much?

[Sly Wren]

Same question with longclaw. 

If Jon died or he got a better sword, what will happen to longclaw?

He would ask it be returned to Jorah (if he did not die) or his house. 

For dawn, after he is done with it, it should be returned to House dayne. 

For Longclaw--really think it's Jon's now. "Name works as well for a wolf as for a bear." 

 

Might Jon give it back to the Mormonts once he gets a new sword? That I could see.

 

As for Dawn, we'll have to see. Based on what little we have in the books, seems like the wielder keeps it until death.

 

i have a diffrent take on what u wrote about ice....its black right used to be stark, than changing in with color red and what do u have than a targaryen banner.....

The black and red seem Targ, yes. But broken Ice is fighting the red, not uniting with it. Not making it part of itself--uniting into a Targ banner.

 

Seems more like it's Lannister defilement than Targaryen transformation.

 

OP, Bravo!  :bowdown:

 

I enjoyed the links regarding Ice/Dawn too.  I think that maybe the Stark who became the NK wielded the original Ice, made by the Others and his Queen.  When he was put down by a Dayne his sword was given to him in thanks.

:cheers: Thanks!

 

As for the sword--could even have been given to the Dayne for safekeeping.

 

As you will be able to tell from my posts, I'm still mulling over all of the ideas of Ice and Dawn. I really think Jon's the Sword of the Morning. Who Ice and Dawn are? Very interesting. Lots of ideas--but I'm nowhere near sure.

[Targaryen Restoration]

Lightbringer is not Ice.  It is doubtful whether Ice will ever be put back together from the two swords. 

 

Valyrian steel works well against the enemy.  There's really no need to find, create, nor reinvent lightbringer.  The weapons they already have work remarkably well.  There's just not enough of them to go around. 

[purple-eyes]

For Longclaw--really think it's Jon's now. "Name works as well for a wolf as for a bear." 
 
Might Jon give it back to the Mormonts once he gets a new sword? That I could see.
 
As for Dawn, we'll have to see. Based on what little we have in the books, seems like the wielder keeps it until death.
 

The black and red seem Targ, yes. But broken Ice is fighting the red, not uniting with it. Not making it part of itself--uniting into a Targ banner.
 
Seems more like it's Lannister defilement than Targaryen transformation.
 

:cheers: Thanks!
 
As for the sword--could even have been given to the Dayne for safekeeping.
 
As you will be able to tell from my posts, I'm still mulling over all of the ideas of Ice and Dawn. I really think Jon's the Sword of the Morning. Who Ice and Dawn are? Very interesting. Lots of ideas--but I'm nowhere near sure.

You think he will not die after the final war? :)

[Sly Wren]

This was a good read, but after taking some time to evaluate it I can't agree with the OP. Here's why -

 

Jon in the cave with Ygritte isn't a descent into the underworld. Not every case of going underground has to be connected with the underworld/death. Great sex with a hot woman rarely occurs in the underworld. Jon's story here is not about "Death of Self" per se, but is part of a deconstruction arc. If we look at this using Campbell's Monomyth as a guide, Jon is in the Belly of the Whale phase. His character is being torn down, prior to a rebuilding. In the cave, Ygritte talks about Gorne's children. They are not dead, just hopelessly and irreconcilably lost. The disappearance of the stars, particularly the Ice Dragon (the Westerosi pole star constellation)  supports the idea that Jon is faced with the danger of losing his way forever. Yet he survives it.

I agree--it's not that kind of underworld. LmL's been teasing me for not putting in more evidence. You've just proven his point. 

 

In this case, the underworld of the cave seems twofold--the belly of the whale, as you say, where a person in crisis hits rock bottom And the fairy-land, magical underworld--Gendel and Gorne. Plus, Ygritte's luring Jon into the cave for sex, luring him away from his purpose--has echoes of Vivienne/Nimue luring Merlin into the cave. Keeping him away from his purpose--with sex.

 

The cave is underworld in that it's out of the world. Jon's "death of self" is purely figurative--the whole beginning of Jon III in Storm is "I though I was this, but I was wrong. I though I was that, but I disgraced it. Stars are memories of who I though I was but realize that I'm not." So, maybe less "death of self" and more "breakdown of self."

 

Then the blow of betraying the NW patrols to the Magnar. Jon's done--into the cave--escape, love, sex, magical stories underworld. A place to hide--and Ygritte wants to stay there forever. 

 

Jon is faced with losing his way--staying in the cave with Ygritte. But he chooses to ascend and hope.

 

Jon has no epiphany. An epiphany is a a sudden realization or enlightenment. Jon doesn't have that. He just finds some hope, and resolves to continue.

 

Jon doesn't become the Sword of the Morning. He is simply inspired by it. If this is foreshadowing, it would seem to imply that at a time of crisis and despair, Jon will meet the Sword of the Morning and find strength to continue due to that meeting.

1. Agree that Jon's epiphany is not full yet--he doesn't know what it means. He gets all of the emotional and spiritual impact without the intellectual understanding. So, partial epiphany. 

 

But it isn't just hope. It's identity. And not just because of the symbols. It's because of the narrative structure. Martin opens Jon III with Jon's looking at the dark night and the stars and contemplating how he's lost who he thought he was, how he never was who he thought he was. The stars are confusing as he contemplates them. And Ghost contemplates them, too. The darkness and stars and identity confusion open Jon III. Then, opening Jon IV, Jon has resisted hiding in the cave. Has returned to his purpose--reward? A clear vision of the Sword. Of the stars. The entire question of the star scene in Jon III is "who am I?" The answer at the start of Jon IV--the Sword of the Morning.

 

2. Agree that Jon is inspired by the sword. And I thought that maybe he just had to find the Sword of the Morning. Until I read Jon III. That lead in is too specific.

 

Plus, who else in the novels has anything close to such a moment re: the Sword of the Morning? Everyone who know Arthur Dayne reveres him with his title, not his title per se. And no one else has earned an ancestral sword on merit.

 

R+L=J to me is very close to a fact. If so, Jon has very little Dayne blood. You have have to go back to Aegon V's mother to find it. Jon's true ancestral sword isn't Dawn. It is Blackfyre.

 

I agree re: RLJ. But the Dayne blood is there if Martin goes the RLJ route. And this sword is a magical bestowal of worth--not blood inheritance per se. We do not know what "worthy" Dayne means yet. But Jon's tied to that office somehow. How that will work--to be determined.

 

There's some great stuff here. The OP made some great observations, particularly about Longclaw's temporary nature for Jon. But I'm not buying the main assertion.

Completely fair.  :cheers:

[Sly Wren]

You think he will not die after the final war? :)

Oh--I was assuming you were saying "return after killing others then retire to Winterfell."

 

But, yes--very possible we could lose Jon in the war.

 

I think he will be standing because of the Bael the Bard story--the bastard son who became Lord of Winterfell. But as has often been noted, Martin likes his patterns and parallels, but he doesn't run them straight. So, yes, Jon could vey well not make it.

 

And back goes Dawn.

[LmL]

Very intriguing. I would add that the Daynes are different from the other Dornish--stony Dornish with a different history. 

 

But Jon notes the fact that the song is sung north of the Wall--could just be a product of the way people are sent to the Wall. But could definitely be something else as well. 

 

I'm going to start here--but can't pretend that you aren't miles ahead of me re: pursuing this line of thought. 

 

That said, here I go: I really like the idea that Jon and Robb are doing a version of the downfall of the Night's King. Jon just did his very convincing Night's King impression, complete with knives. And the Stark children often follow versions of old Stark stories.

 

Plus, it helps explain Jon's beheading Robb in in the dream-fight for the Wall. From the start, Jon wants to be Lord of Winterfell AND knows he shouldn't. He remembers fencing with Robb and winning--"I'm Lord of Winterfell" to have Robb rebuff him. Jon's clash between what he wants and feeling guilty for it--that kid needs therapy. And bandages.

 

So, this is a different kind of NK and Stark in Winterfell. Robb fell first but is lionized--or wolfized. Then Jon falls--what will be the result in the North? Really think (per my OP) that Jon's rising to fight the real threat. The Starks will fight.

 

An I agree that AAR and LH and all those figures are connected to the swords. Which brings me to my own crackpot re: Ice. Ned, de facto King in the North, fell due to treachery. Granted, he fell in the south, but fell and was murdered with Ice. Then Ice--the dark metaled sword with its ties to the King in the North crown--fell due to treachery. Broken, defiled, renamed, split. 

 

Then the brothers who love and honor each other--Robb insists on considering Jon as heir (since we don't know for sure what's in the letter, I'll reserve judgment. But I think Robb made Jon his heir). Robb is raised up as King in the North. Just as Jon is raised up as Lord Commander. Then both fall via treachery--not to each other, but to their followers. They've changed the Night's King narrative (unknowingly).

 

Result? Ice has fallen. So has the King in the North. Robb's crown isn't for the King of Winter--it's for the King in the North. Same with its metals. So, to go way out on a limb--the King in the North and his crown and sword--fallen. And now the new/old Kings of Winter can rise with their sword--Dawn? 

 

Too much?

 

That's an interesting idea, that the King in the North represents someone who usurped the King of Winter. I was looking anthem in a continuum, as both the same thing. But technically, you're wrong about the crown:

 

Her son’s crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn Stark that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb’s head. The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster’s smith had done his work well, and Robb’s crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.  (ACOK, Catelyn)

 

 

Sounds like the Kings in the North wore the same crown as the KoW.

But it's interesting that you picked up on the theme of treachery with Ned's sword, which I like to call "Black Ice:"

 

It was warmer in the godswood, strange to say. Beyond its confines, a hard white frost gripped Winterfell. The paths were treacherous with black ice, and hoarfrost sparkled in the moonlight on the broken panes of the Glass Gardens. Drifts of dirty snow had piled up against the walls, filling every nook and corner. Some were so high they hid the doors behind them. Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders, and here and there a blackened beam or a pile of bones adorned with scraps of skin and hair. Icicles long as lances hung from the battlements and fringed the towers like an old man’s stiff white whiskers. But inside the godswood, the ground remained unfrozen, and steam rose off the hot pools, as warm as baby’s breath. (ADWD, THE PRINCE OF WINTERFELL)

 

There's a quote you're thinking of about with Jon and Robb:

 

“King,” croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont’s shoulder. “King,” it said again, strutting back and forth.

 

“He likes that word,” Jon said, smiling.

 

“An easy word to say. An easy word to like.”

 

“King,” the bird said again.

 

“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”

 

“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

 

It made him feel odd. “My lord, why have you told me this, about Maester Aemon?”

 

“Must I have a reason?” Mormont shifted in his seat, frowning. “Your brother Robb has been crowned King in the North. You and Aemon have that in common. A king for a brother.”

 

“And this too,” said Jon. “A vow.”

 

The Old Bear gave a loud snort, and the raven took flight, flapping in a circle about the room. “Give me a man for every vow I’ve seen broken and the Wall will never lack for defenders.”

 

“I’ve always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell.”

 

Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. “A lord’s one thing, a king’s another.” He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. “They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You’ll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they’ll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon … and I’ll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it.”

 

Jon drew himself up, taut as a bowstring. “And if it did trouble me, what might I do, bastard as I am?”

 

“What will you do?” Mormont asked. “Bastard as you are?”

 

“Be troubled,” said Jon, “and keep my vows.” (ACOK, Jon)

 

 

- - - - 

 

“Is it true, m’lord?” said Three-Finger Hobb.

 

“Who is it?” asked Owen the Oaf. “Not Dywen, is it?”

 

“Nor Garth,” said the queen’s man she knew as Alf of Runnymudd, one of the first to exchange his seven false gods for the truth of R’hllor. “Garth’s too clever for them wildlings.”

 

“How many?” Mully asked.

 

“Three,” Jon told them. “Black Jack, Hairy Hal, and Garth.”

 

Alf of Runnymudd let out a howl loud enough to wake sleepers in the Shadow Tower. “Put him to bed and get some mulled wine into him,” Jon told Three-Finger Hobb.

 

“Lord Snow,” Melisandre said quietly. “Will you come with me to the King’s Tower? I have more to share with you.”

 

He looked at her face for a long moment with those cold grey eyes of his. His right hand closed, opened, closed again. “As you wish. Edd, take Ghost back to my chambers.”

 

Melisandre took that as a sign and dismissed her own guard as well. They crossed the yard together, just the two of them. The snow fell all around them. She walked as close to Jon Snow as she dared, close enough to feel the mistrust pouring off him like a black fog. He does not love me, will never love me, but he will make use of me. Well and good. Melisandre had danced the same dance with Stannis Baratheon, back in the beginning. In truth, the young lord commander and her king had more in common than either one would ever be willing to admit. Stannis had been a younger son living in the shadow of his elder brother, just as Jon Snow, bastard-born, had always been eclipsed by his trueborn sibling, the fallen hero men had called the Young Wolf. Both men were unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious. The only gods they truly worshiped were honor and duty.

 

“You have not asked about your sister,” Melisandre said, as they climbed the spiral steps of the King’s Tower.

 

“I told you. I have no sister. We put aside our kin when we say our words. I cannot help Arya, much as I—”

 

He broke off as they stepped inside her chambers. The wildling was within, seated at her board, spreading butter on a ragged chunk of warm brown bread with his dagger. He had donned the bone armor, she was pleased to see. The broken giant’s skull that was his helm rested on the window seat behind him.

 

Jon Snow tensed. “You.”

 

“Lord Snow.” The wildling grinned at them through a mouth of brown and broken teeth. The ruby on his wrist glimmered in the morning light like a dim red star.  (ADWD, Jon)

[purple-eyes]

Oh--I was assuming you were saying "return after killing others then retire to Winterfell."
 
But, yes--very possible we could lose Jon in the war.
 
I think he will be standing because of the Bael the Bard story--the bastard son who became Lord of Winterfell. But as has often been noted, Martin likes his patterns and parallels, but he doesn't run them straight. So, yes, Jon could vey well not make it.
 
And back goes Dawn.

There is a good combination that jon can claim dawn properly.
He is son of rhaegar and ashara dayne. :)

[purple-eyes]

Oh--I was assuming you were saying "return after killing others then retire to Winterfell."
 
But, yes--very possible we could lose Jon in the war.
 
I think he will be standing because of the Bael the Bard story--the bastard son who became Lord of Winterfell. But as has often been noted, Martin likes his patterns and parallels, but he doesn't run them straight. So, yes, Jon could vey well not make it.
 
And back goes Dawn.

There is a good combination that jon can claim dawn properly.
He is son of rhaegar and ashara dayne. :)

[LmL]

 

 

The black and red seem Targ, yes. But broken Ice is fighting the red, not uniting with it. Not making it part of itself--uniting into a Targ banner.

 

Seems more like it's Lannister defilement than Targaryen transformation.

 

 

 

I don't agree with this. The sword was attempted to be colored red, and half of it took the coloring, but darkened it, and the other half did not take the coloring. That indicates two different materials in the sword, one which is probably not Valyrian steel at all, because Tobho's method is intended to work on V steel. 

 

He tried to dye it Lannister crimson, but it came out the color of blood. Similarly, when the Tullys discuss the comet, another Lightbringer symbol like Ned's sword, Edmure thinks it's Tully red, and someone says Lannister crimson, but Blackfish says no..

 

Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god.  “The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned.  Edmure thinks it’s an omen of victory for Riverrun— he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue.”

 

She sighed. “I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color.” 

 

“That thing’s not crimson,” Ser Brynden said. “Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That’s blood up there, child, smeared across the sky.” 

 

“Our blood or theirs?” 

 

“Was there ever a war where only one side bled?” Her uncle gave a shake of the head. “The riverlands are awash in blood and flame all around the Gods Eye.  (ACOK, Catelyn)

 

The sword's colors are important and highly symbolic, "waves of night and blood on some steely shore." You could call it "black fire and blood" if you want. The colors are the same as when Jon is armored in black ice with a sword that burns red, and also when he sees streaks of red fire turn to rivers of black ice (water imagery just like "waves of blood and night" and "ripples lapping over one another").  These are all variations on the Targaryen colors.... it's pretty hard to say none of that is intended to symbolize Targaryen dragon blood. That, combined with all Jon's AA and dragon imagery, and his Mithras imagery (AA being largely based on Mithras lore) all indicate dragons, i.e. fire and blood, as well as the magic sword associated with waves of blood and night, a flaming cross guard, Stannis and his magic sword, etc.

 

There's also this:

 

“Do not be so certain.” The ruby at Melisandre’s throat gleamed red. “It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.”

 

“It is always cold on the Wall.”

 

“You think so?”

 

“I know so, my lady.”

 

“Then you know nothing, Jon Snow,” she whispered. (ADWD, Jon)

 

And once more, for emphasis:

 

Yarwyck grimaced. “Aye, Lord Commander.”

 

“Lord Bowen, you shall collect the tolls. The gold and silver, the amber, the torques and armbands and necklaces. Sort it all, count it, see that it reaches Eastwatch safely.”

 

“Yes, Lord Snow,” said Bowen Marsh.

 

And Jon thought, “Ice,” she said, “and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel.” His sword hand flexed. The wind was rising.  (ADWD, Jon)

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen. Unbelievers never listened until it was too late.

[...]

 

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow. “Devan,” she called, “a drink.” Her throat was raw and parched.  (ADWD, Jon)

 

One more daggers in the dark reference, and next to Azor Ahai and Jon Snow both:

 

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?”  (ADWD, Jon)

 

​Anyway Sly Wren I really like your OP and hopefully some of these quotes help you along the way. I feel like I've thrown enough other stuff in this thread, so that's it for now, I don't want to take over with my particular brand of madness. I hope it wasn't too much, and that some of it is helpful. I like the way you're approaching this idea and these are the subjects I have my brain wrapped around.

 

There are still some large pieces of the puzzle I can't see, I can feel it. I mean, what if it's something weird like Dawn is actually black steel beneath its white surface, something like people suspect that a stone wall lies under the ice Wall? Maybe it was a black sword that got frozen in Others magic, so that it can be an ice and fire sword. I don't think so - i think there were two swords - but all I am saying is you have to keep an open mind, because these metaphors are complex. I mean Ned's sword is a black steel sword made in dragon fire named "Ice." The Others are icy, right? Except they have blue stars for eyes, the hottest kind of star. The Others have inner fire of some kind. But it's like a fire that is cold, and nothing burns like the cold... and now we are lost. Anyway.

 

Nice work and I encourage you to follow up with some of the quotes you didn't use.  :cheers: 

[Sly Wren]

 

 

I don't agree with this. The sword was attempted to be colored red, and half of it took the coloring, but darkened it, and the other half did not take the coloring. That indicates two different materials in the sword, one which is probably not Valyrian steel at all, because Tobho's method is intended to work on V steel. 

 

He tried to dye it Lannister crimson, but it came out the color of blood. Similarly, when the Tullys discuss the comet, another Lightbringer symbol like Ned's sword, Edmure thinks it's Tully red, and someone says Lannister crimson, but Blackfish says no..

 

Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god.  “The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned.  Edmure thinks it’s an omen of victory for Riverrun— he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue.”

 

She sighed. “I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color.” 

 

“That thing’s not crimson,” Ser Brynden said. “Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That’s blood up there, child, smeared across the sky.” 

 

“Our blood or theirs?” 

 

“Was there ever a war where only one side bled?” Her uncle gave a shake of the head. “The riverlands are awash in blood and flame all around the Gods Eye.  (ACOK, Catelyn)

 

The sword's colors are important and highly symbolic, "waves of night and blood on some steely shore." You could call it "black fire and blood" if you want. The colors are the same as when Jon is armored in black ice with a sword that burns red, and also when he sees streaks of red fire turn to rivers of black ice (water imagery just like "waves of blood and night" and "ripples lapping over one another").  These are all variations on the Targaryen colors.... it's pretty hard to say none of that is intended to symbolize Targaryen dragon blood. That, combined with all Jon's AA and dragon imagery, and his Mithras imagery (AA being largely based on Mithras lore) all indicate dragons, i.e. fire and blood, as well as the magic sword associated with waves of blood and night, a flaming cross guard, Stannis and his magic sword, etc.

1. I really like the idea that Ice is not entirely Valyrian steel and that explains the resistance. But I also think the fact that it's a sword made with spells and magic--the sword seems to know what it wants to be. It doesn't want to be red.

 

2. The sword is the color of blood. But the other parts of Tyrion's description struck me, too: 

 

But blended into the folds was a red so deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore.

 

This is a very dark red--not the Targ contrast of red and black. This red is as deep as the dark grey. Dark grey--Stark. Blood red--tries to be Lannister--but fails. And the two colors won't touch. They resist each other, not work together. So, not a union of red and black. It's a bound competition of blood and grey.

 

3. Agree with all the colors you brought out tying into each other. And that the potential for Targ tie-ins can't be denied. But, as shown with broken Ice, the colors alone aren't enough. How they are interacting in the sword also seems to be key. They are fighting--this isn't a banner. It's a war--Starks vs. Lannisters.

 

4. Re: Jon and AAR--no way to deny that a lot of the imagery fits. Really think he will fulfill parts of the myth. But, as the Starks are reworking a lot of the Northern myths, am thinking Jon may not be alone in fulfilling AAR. 

​Anyway Sly Wren I really like your OP and hopefully some of these quotes help you along the way. I feel like I've thrown enough other stuff in this thread, so that's it for now, I don't want to take over with my particular brand of madness. I hope it wasn't too much, and that some of it is helpful. I like the way you're approaching this idea and these are the subjects I have my brain wrapped around.

 

There are still some large pieces of the puzzle I can't see, I can feel it. I mean, what if it's something weird like Dawn is actually black steel beneath its white surface, something like people suspect that a stone wall lies under the ice Wall? Maybe it was a black sword that got frozen in Others magic, so that it can be an ice and fire sword. I don't think so - i think there were two swords - but all I am saying is you have to keep an open mind, because these metaphors are complex. I mean Ned's sword is a black steel sword made in dragon fire named "Ice." The Others are icy, right? Except they have blue stars for eyes, the hottest kind of star. The Others have inner fire of some kind. But it's like a fire that is cold, and nothing burns like the cold... and now we are lost. Anyway.

 

Nice work and I encourage you to follow up with some of the quotes you didn't use.  :cheers: 

HA! You have not taken over my ides, you've enhanced the argument. For that I thank you. If it's madness, I thank you for that as well.

 

And fully agree there are lots of puzzle pieces and the need for an open mind. The next book should give us more pieces, and even more things to need an open mind for.

 

So,  :cheers:

[Sly Wren]

There is a good combination that jon can claim dawn properly.
He is son of rhaegar and ashara dayne. :)

It is possible. But given the blue roses and Bael the Bard--really, really think Lyanna is Jon's mother.

 

But I definitely want to know more about Ashara. . . 

[LmL]

Cool Sly Wren, glad you appreciated what I had there. One thing that's curious, is the idea of what kind of person and what kind of sword can withstand being set on fire. Clearly regular castle forged steel isn't strong enough, so it's clear we need V steel or whatever Dawn is, perhaps. As for the wielder, of course the strength of the wielder is always an important part of a magic sword equation. Jon is armored in ice, but does not melt. Is that because the black ice is not ice, but represents either steel or dragonglass? Dragonglass, as frozen fire, is similar to a black dragonsteel sword called ice. Oh and if Ice has another material that is not steel, my money is on dragonglass, or dragonglass infused steel. Anyway, contrast that to Daenerys, fighting troops armored in ice at the Trident on dragon back:

 

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

 

Dragonflame melted these ice warriors, but Jon himself wields flame (dragonsteel, symbolically) and does not melt. Of course it's a dream, but perhaps that's significant.  

 

[Kingmonkey]

Stil, I wonder how a sword with only icy imagery like Dawn could slay Others. It seems like a bigger, badass version of an Others's sword.

 
I think any theory about Dawn needs to deal with this. Let me throw something out there:
 

He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

 

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.
The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light.

Sure most people hold that Stannis' sword isn't the real Lightbringer, just something Melissandre has glamoured up. It does kind of look like Lightbringer and Dawn are Fire and Ice alternatives of the same basic thing though. 
 
Other things that are milkglass or like milkglass:
The bones of the Others 
Ghost grass (which obviously parallels the Others)
Moon-windows at the temple of the Moonsingers in Braavos
Pycelle's poison bottles
 
Lightbringer is all fire and solar imagery in contrast to Dawn's ice and lunar imagery.
 
We know that Lightbringer needed the blood of Nissa Nissa to be properly empowered, I wonder if Dawn needed / needs something similar?
 

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on.
...
 
The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.
...
 
The pale sword came shivering through the air.
 
...
Again and again the swords met
...
The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow.
...
The Other’s parry was almost lazy.
When the blades touched, the steel shattered.
...
The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

 
The Other's sword is described in similar terms to Dawn, a pale sword alive with (moon)light. When he meets Royce, the first thing he does is look at Royce's own sword. I wonder if he was checking to make sure it wasn't something more dangerous than steel.  

The swords meet "again and again" but after the Other's blade has drawn blood, it is suddenly able to shatter Royce's sword with an "almost lazy" parry, and then the other Others join in to blood their own swords too. Interesting. 
 
Wild random crackpot here, following the idea that there's something inherently special about Daynes for wielding Dawn. Maybe the Daynes keep it not because they have something in their blood that makes them inherently able to use it, but because they don't -- so it's only safe in Dayne hands. If it draws blood when wielded by a non-Dayne, that's when you have to worry.

[Sly Wren]

 
I think any theory about Dawn needs to deal with this. Let me throw something out there:
 

Sure most people hold that Stannis' sword isn't the real Lightbringer, just something Melissandre has glamoured up. It does kind of look like Lightbringer and Dawn are Fire and Ice alternatives of the same basic thing though. 
 
Other things that are milkglass or like milkglass:
The bones of the Others 
Ghost grass (which obviously parallels the Others)
Moon-windows at the temple of the Moonsingers in Braavos
Pycelle's poison bottles
 
Lightbringer is all fire and solar imagery in contrast to Dawn's ice and lunar imagery.
 
We know that Lightbringer needed the blood of Nissa Nissa to be properly empowered, I wonder if Dawn needed / needs something similar?
 

The Other's sword is described in similar terms to Dawn, a pale sword alive with (moon)light. When he meets Royce, the first thing he does is look at Royce's own sword. I wonder if he was checking to make sure it wasn't something more dangerous than steel.  

The swords meet "again and again" but after the Other's blade has drawn blood, it is suddenly able to shatter Royce's sword with an "almost lazy" parry, and then the other Others join in to blood their own swords too. Interesting. 
 
Wild random crackpot here, following the idea that there's something inherently special about Daynes for wielding Dawn. Maybe the Daynes keep it not because they have something in their blood that makes them inherently able to use it, but because they don't -- so it's only safe in Dayne hands. If it draws blood when wielded by a non-Dayne, that's when you have to worry.

1. Agree that the "milk glass" nature of Dawn has to be dealt with. And apologies to LmL--I somehow missed this part of your argument. Need to read more slowly.

 

2. To the bolded above--Dawn is alive with light. In the sunlight. The Others' swords are alive with light in the twilight and moonlight. So, yes, Dawn seems like the Others' swords to have lunar imagery. Except it's alive in the sunlight. For all of its similarities to the Others' swords, Dawn is also clearly different. Its solar compatible (there has to be a better way to say that).

 

3. Clear back in my OP, when Jon has his vision of the Sword of the Morning, three things are tied together:

         A. The Sword of the Morning, a constellation of stars visible at night, but still clear and brilliant in the morning sunlight.

         B. The dawn--taking all the black and white and gray (the colors of the underworld) and filling them with greens and russets--warm colors of life.

         C. The Wall--it glows. Alive with light. It's beautiful--under the soot and schmutz of millennia, its beauty shines through, like Dawn, in the sunlight.

 

The Wall is ice. Like the Others' swords. Yet keeps it them out. Dawn is like ice--but glows in the sun. And both are tied in Jon's moment with the Sword to bringing life and color back to a dead world. So, no matter all of the similarities between Dawn and the Others' swords, seems really clear there's also a big difference: sunlight and Dawn. A kind of solar imagery. 

 

4. I don't think your crackpot is all that cracked. The idea that blood could be part of the sword--Beric sets his sword aflame with blood. So, the idea that the blood of the Daynes is literally magical in protecting how an ancient magical sword is used--I can absolutely buy that.

[Sly Wren]

Cool Sly Wren, glad you appreciated what I had there. One thing that's curious, is the idea of what kind of person and what kind of sword can withstand being set on fire. Clearly regular castle forged steel isn't strong enough, so it's clear we need V steel or whatever Dawn is, perhaps. As for the wielder, of course the strength of the wielder is always an important part of a magic sword equation. Jon is armored in ice, but does not melt. Is that because the black ice is not ice, but represents either steel or dragonglass? Dragonglass, as frozen fire, is similar to a black dragonsteel sword called ice. Oh and if Ice has another material that is not steel, my money is on dragonglass, or dragonglass infused steel. Anyway, contrast that to Daenerys, fighting troops armored in ice at the Trident on dragon back:

 

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

 

Dragonflame melted these ice warriors, but Jon himself wields flame (dragonsteel, symbolically) and does not melt. Of course it's a dream, but perhaps that's significant.  

Very good question--hmm.

 

I do tend to see Dany's dream more as wish fulfillment. She wants to be powerful. But given where she's already gone re: ruling vs. conquering--could see her trying to fulfill this. Seeing it as just. But then having to switch to "melt" the Others. Though I'm not a fan of "Drogon as blowtorch," I can definitely see this as being potential foreshadowing.

 

But your initial question--the idea of actual armor that can't melt. I like it. But am having trouble figuring out where they'd get that much dragon glass. Why Jon doesn't melt. . . will need to think on this. . . Perhaps it goes to Kingmonkey's blood idea above? 

 

But I do like the idea of dragon glass being mixed into the Valyrian steel. And not just because real obsidian can get crazy sharp--like Valyrian steel. The forging takes spells--to do what? Bless it? The spell seem to give the swords a bit of will. So the idea that the spells would help it bond with other materials, materials that gives it lightness and sharpness--seems reasonable to me.

 

That's an interesting idea, that the King in the North represents someone who usurped the King of Winter. I was looking anthem in a continuum, as both the same thing. But technically, you're wrong about the crown:

 

<snip>

 

Sounds like the Kings in the North wore the same crown as the KoW.

HA! Thank you for being tactful. But I'm not "technically wrong." I'm just wrong flat out. That's what I get for not checking before I post.

 

But your point that they are a continuum, not a competition: the King of Winter title doesn't seem to have applied to the Starks before the fall of the Night's King. Now that the King of Winter/King in the North and his son, the new King in the North have fallen--are we going to see an older office? 

 

One more thing re: Ice vs. Dawn. Ice is an echo. Jon wants it because it's Ned's, but it's not the original. The Lannisters broke and defiled a copy. A shadow (dark) of the original. As you said--Black Ice.

 

If Dawn is the original. . . the Lannisters haven't won.

[Lord Wraith]

It is possible. But given the blue roses and Bael the Bard--really, really think Lyanna is Jon's mother.

 

But I definitely want to know more about Ashara. . . 

 

Barristan says Dany has the same eyes as Ashara. Make of that what you will.

[Lady Dyanna]

Just finished reading through your post and all of the comments. I wanted to tell you that I think that you made an excellent argument! I'm pretty much sold. Of course, I think that I was able to see bits and pieces of the evolution of this theory along the way, which I think helped. I also think that you're correct in keeping it as simple as possible. It makes things very concise and easy to follow.

I do think that section IV is the weakest part of your argument. It would seem to simplify things quite a bit to be able to assume either NAJ or preferably ALJ. This essay and ALJ would combine well to lend credence to one another. Then again, unless further evidence is uncovered, attempting to go against RLJ at this point, might render you less support, even if it would strengthen the argument in the long run. What still makes me laugh, is that if you discount the incest, Robert Baratheon is just as closely related to the Daynes as Rhaegar.

I was originally surprised that you didn't make more of Jon's unintended self-sacrifice at the end of aDwD. Although, upon reflection, I'm not sure if it would have added support, or just complicated the issue more.

I think that I'm going to have to go back and reread Voice's theory about Dawn being Ice again. I was originally pretty much on board with that idea, but it does seem to complicate the idea of Jon being SotM. Will have to consider both ideas with the other in mind. Either way, it's possible that it might have little impact on the idea of Jon finding his true identity as the SotM.

Great work! :cheers:

[LmL]

Just finished reading through your post and all of the comments. I wanted to tell you that I think that you made an excellent argument! I'm pretty much sold. Of course, I think that I was able to see bits and pieces of the evolution of this theory along the way, which I think helped. I also think that you're correct in keeping it as simple as possible. It makes things very concise and easy to follow.

I do think that section IV is the weakest part of your argument. It would seem to simplify things quite a bit to be able to assume either NAJ or preferably ALJ. This essay and ALJ would combine well to lend credence to one another. Then again, unless further evidence is uncovered, attempting to go against RLJ at this point, might render you less support, even if it would strengthen the argument in the long run. What still makes me laugh, is that if you discount the incest, Robert Baratheon is just as closely related to the Daynes as Rhaegar.

I was originally surprised that you didn't make more of Jon's unintended self-sacrifice at the end of aDwD. Although, upon reflection, I'm not sure if it would have added support, or just complicated the issue more.

I think that I'm going to have to go back and reread Voice's theory about Dawn being Ice again. I was originally pretty much on board with that idea, but it does seem to complicate the idea of Jon being SotM. Will have to consider both ideas with the other in mind. Either way, it's possible that it might have little impact on the idea of Jon finding his true identity as the SotM.

Great work! :cheers:

 

During an essay on the Jogos Nhai and the moonsingers, I devolved into a discussion about magic swords, because that's much more interesting than horse lords from the remote parts of Essos ;) Using the temple of the moonsingers as a symbolic rosetta stone for the milkglass, I outlined my arguments that Dawn is the original Ice. I'm going to paste it in below, but I'll put it in spoiler tags as it's longer than a normal comment. Kingmonkey alluded to all the things which contain milkglass; here I've pulled the quotes and done some analysis (although I missed Pycelle's jars when I wrote this).

[spoiler]During the course of their five thousand years of existence, the Valyrians enslaved peoples from lands far and wide, including some Jogos Nhai.  The city of Bravos was founded by a group of slaves who overthrew their Valyrian masters while at sea and took refuge at the hidden lagoon which would eventually become their city.  This lagoon was prophesied and located by a group of moonsingers who were among the escaped slaves.  Arya first hears of this story as she sails into Bravos for the first time.  We also get a nice description of the Temple of the Moonsingers:

 

“The Moonsingers led us to this place of refuge, where the dragons of Valyria could not find us,” Denyo said. “Theirs is the greatest temple.

[…]

That is the Temple of the Moonsingers.” It was one of those that Arya had spied from the lagoon, a mighty mass of snow-white marble topped by a huge silvered dome whose milk-glass windows showed all the phases of the moon. A pair of marble maidens flanked its gates, tall as the Sealords, supporting a crescent-shaped lintel.  (AFFC, Arya)

 

It certainly sounds like a splendid structure, and it’s densely packed with moon imagery - icy moon imagery at that.  Actually, I can’t resist unpacking this a bit.  To start, we see the "colors of winter," silver / grey and white - Stark colors, of course.   Arya should feel right at home here.  The marble is described as "snow-white," adding to the imagery.

 

We get the only appearance of actual milk-glass, which is significant because of three things which are described as appearing like milk-glass:  the sword Dawn, and the bones of the Others, and the stalks of ghost grass that grow near Asshai.  

 

 

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.  (AGOT, Eddard)

 

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too.  (ASOS, Sam)

 

"Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.”  (AGOT, Daenerys)

 

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

[…]

The pale sword came shivering through the air.  (AGOT, Prologue)

 

The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white.

[…]

The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other’s grip.  (ASOS, Sam)

 

My working theory about Dawn the sword is that is was the original “Ice” of House Stark, and infused with some level of icy Others magic.  I’m developing a whole theory about his, of course, which I won’t get into here.  I do think it was made from the heart of a falling star, but it also seem to have some Other-ness to it.  It’s always described with the term milkglass, which is why I think it’s worth the time to consider these milkglass quotes.  The ghost grass and the Others’s swords glow with "ghost light,” while Dawn glows with a “pale light.”  Dawn is “alive with light,” the Other’s sword is “alive with moonlight.”  The Others’s swords are called a “pale sword” twice; of course the tower at Starfall is called the "Palestone Sword.”   The ghost grass which is taller than a man on horseback and murders everything else in an attempt to cover the world and extinguish all life sounds a lot like an army of Others during the Long Night “riding down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything we would call life.” ('93 GRRM letter to the editor)  Naturally this grass is, like Dawn, “as pale as milkglass.”  

 

Why the ominous connotations for the sword Dawn?  Because (hypothesis) it was originally the sword of the King of Winter, the first Stark.  We are supposed to believe that Bran the Builder, founder of House Stark, built the Wall (or at least the first part of it).  That’s a pretty strong sign of the ancient Starks having some real ability with ice magic.  If anyone could infuse a sword that mortals can hold with Others' ice magic, this might be the guy. 

 

The Temple of the Moonsingers embodies all of these milkglass-related concepts quite nicely.  They’ve certainly got their symbolic house in order over there.  The last detail of the temple worthy of note is the two marble moon-maidens holding the crescent moon lintel over their heads.  It strongly reminds me of this passage:

 

The moon had crowned the Moonmaid as they set out from the dust- dry ruins of Shandystone, striking south and west. Arianne and Ser Arys took the lead, with Myrcella on a frisky mare between them.

(AFFC, Arianne)

 

Arianne and company are setting out crown the maiden, Myrcella, which may actually be the same as killing her, as it turns out.  This is the subject of much rumination, with quotes like this: 

 

 

You do know that when my father returns to the Water Gardens he plans to take Myrcella with him?” 

 

“To keep her safe from those who would do her harm.” 

 

“No. To keep her away from those who’d seek to crown her.”  (AFFC, The Soiled Knight) 

 

 

“Princess.” Ser Gerold Dayne stood behind her, half in starlight and half in shadow.

 

“How was your piss?” Arianne inquired archly. 

 

“The sands were duly grateful.” Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue that might have been the Maiden till the sands had scoured her face away. “It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want.” 

[…]

“Call it what you will. Crowning the Lannister girl is a hollow gesture. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Nor will you get the war you want. The lion is not so easily provoked.” Ser Gerold drew his sword. It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies. “This is how you start a war. Not with a crown of gold, but with a blade of steel.”  (AFFC, Arianne)

 

She could not believe they would inform on her … but that left only Darkstar, and if he was the betrayer, why had he turned his sword on poor Myrcella? He wanted to kill her instead of crowning her, he said as much at Shandystone. He said that was how I’d get the war I wanted.  (ADWD, Arianne)

 

Moon crescents can be crowns, but they can also be sickles.  Crescent moons are also called sickle moons, and are of course associated with sacrifice.  In Bran’s last chapter of A Dance with Dragons, the moon is described the same way four times, as a sort of literary device to create a montage-type effect as Bran learns about becoming a greenseer: "The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife.”  This is the chapter in which Bran sees a series of visions through the weirwood tree, with the last being the sacrificial scene in front of the weirwood tree of Winterfell :

 

And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them. Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. “No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.  (ADWD, Bran)

 

Thus we come full circle, from the birthing songs of the moonsingers to the crescent moon and its connotation of sacrifice.  For many of the moon maidens on our story, sacrificial death and birth are two sides of the same coin, tragically.  Nissa Nissa is of course the original moon maiden who died in childbirth, but the moon maiden who really comes to mind here is the woman Bran sees a bit earlier in his series of visions: Lyanna Stark.  From Ned’s dream while held captive in the dungeons in A Game of Thrones:

 

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. 

 

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. 

 

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.  (AGOT, Eddard)

 

Those winter roses were Lyanna’s crown, representing her moment of glory as the Queen of Love and Beauty.  Unfortunately there’s another side of that coin, represented by the thorns beneath pale blue petals of the winter rose which draw Ned’s blood.  The deadly nature of this crown is further emphasized by this quote from Ned’s most famous of fever dreams:

 

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.  (AGOT, Eddard)

 

This passage is loaded with death associations which make plain the cost exacted by the rose crown’s thorns.  It’s also specifically evocative of the Others: the rose pedals of Lyanna’s crown are a “storm," and the blue of the pedals is the blue of the eyes of death - the star-saphire eyes of the Others.  Once again, we see that you cannot touch on winter imagery without using words which evoke the Others.  I don’t think that’s a coincidence.  I believe the text is telling us something with this consistent use of specific symbols.  The sword Dawn, the Others, and the Starks; blue roses, lunar crowns and pale ghost light- all of these concepts are intrinsically connected.

 

To bring this back to the Temple of the Moonsingers which Arya sees in Bravos, consider Arya herself, who looks like Lyanna and has the same “wolf blood,” according to Ned.  When Bran first sees Lyanna in his weirwood vision, he mistakes her for Arya.  The idea of a wintery crown pops again around another girl mistaken for Arya, Alys Karstark. Melisandre sees Alys coming to Castle Black on a dying horse and thinks its Arya.  Jon too makes the connection.

 

Jon turned to Alys Karstark. “My lady. Are you ready?” 

 

“Yes. Oh, yes.” 

 

“You’re not scared?”

 

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. “Let him be scared of me.” The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled. 

 

“Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand.  (ADWD, Jon)

 

Lyanna’s crown was made of petals “blue as frost,” while Alys Karstark has a “frosty crown.”  This scene is extra beautiful when you realize that Jon is not only seeing a vision of his sister here, he’s actually seeing a vision of his mother. Winter’s Lady, with her frosty crown. *sniffle* 

 

Let’s hope Alys’s future has a happier ending than Lyanna’s.  I should point out that both are taking a solar king to husband: Rhaegar, of course, with his Apollo imagery; and Styr, the Magnar of Thenn - turned - Lord of Karhold, with his flaming bronze sunburst sigil. [/spoiler]