From Death to Dawn: Jon Will Rise and The Sword of the Morning

[Mithras]

All of this is lovely for my "Lightbringer was a nasty, soul drinking black weapon" theory. Not sure that any of this applies to Dawn, but it is one in a long line of black swords in fantasy novels - Moorcock's Eric of Melnibone and Steven Erickson's Anomander Rake both are tall albinoes who wield black swords which drink blood and soul juice and are somewhat alive. Very similar to the Tolkein stuff here. And identical to everything I have theorized about Lightbringer. Black sword, moon meteor, sinister aspect. But like Anglachel, Lightbringer may have served one valid purpose, as the Last Hero's dragonsteel... if it was LH's dragonsteel. But that could be Dawn as well, as I said above. It's one of the things I am most anxious to figure out. Both Dawn and Lightbringer are made from meteorites, according to my theory, so both could be dragonsteel.

Stil, I wonder how a sword with only icy imagery like Dawn could slay Others. It seems like a bigger, badass version of an Others's sword. I would think that mofo would be able to kill fire dragons. 

 

The main relevance of the Anglachel to Dawn is of course they are forged from a meteorite. Otherwise, Anglachel seems to check a lot of boxes for Valyrian Steel and Lightbringer.

 

Anglachel had a mate called Anguirel. They were forged from the same meteorite. That reminds me of comet splitting, Ice reforged as Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail. So the question is, did the sword-Lightbringer have a mate or was it broken and reforged as two swords? Did Dawn have a mate?

 

Anglachel carried a built-in evil/curse due to its maker. It caused the unintentional murder of Beleg by Turin who was his brother-in-arms and best friend. Anglachel turned black and blunt when it spilled Beleg’s blood. Then it was reforged and renamed as Gurthang but the malice in the sword remained. This might bring a new perspective to Bloodstone Emperor/Amethyst Empress and Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa angles. Perhaps BSE/AA was a tragic anti-hero like Turin.

 

Eöl, the maker of Anglachel, killed his wife. AA/NN/Lightbringer parallel is obvious. But Eöl did not use the blade. It was given to Thingol (not so different than a gemstone emperor of the GEotD) as a tribute and remained with him until Beleg took it although Melian warned him of the cursed nature of the sword. Beleg did not mind Melian’s prophecy because of his love and affection to Turin. He was betrayed by the sword and paid the price by dying at the hand of the person he loved so much. Then we see another change of owner of the blade along with reforging and renaming. Turin, who already carried the curse of Morgoth, took the curse of the sword on himself.

 

In Nargothrond, Turin became extremely influential and the weak king Orodreth took him as his chief counsellor. Finduilas, the daughter of king Orodreth, fell in love with Turin. This looks a little like BSE/AE dynamics. Note that Finduilas was the only one who could have saved Turin from his terrible fate. Turin and Finduilas could have been a legendary couple like Beren/Luthien and Tuor/Idril. But Turin was deceived by the dragon to go for an empty chase instead of saving Finduilas. That decision would eventually lead to incest with his sister and his doom.

 

However, Mandos himself prophesized that at the end of time, Morgoth will return to wage a Final Battle against the Valar and Turin will deliver the death blow to Morgoth (the root of all evil), exterminating the evil forever and avenging the wrong done to him. There you go with the Turin Ahai Reborn. Just like AA, Turin carried lots of names.

 

I think taking the BSE/AA as a tragic anti-hero who did lots of good and evil together and sacrificed himself in a final act of valor might be worth digging.

[Sly Wren]

Just finished reading through your post and all of the comments. I wanted to tell you that I think that you made an excellent argument! I'm pretty much sold. Of course, I think that I was able to see bits and pieces of the evolution of this theory along the way, which I think helped. I also think that you're correct in keeping it as simple as possible. It makes things very concise and easy to follow.

I do think that section IV is the weakest part of your argument. It would seem to simplify things quite a bit to be able to assume either NAJ or preferably ALJ. This essay and ALJ would combine well to lend credence to one another. Then again, unless further evidence is uncovered, attempting to go against RLJ at this point, might render you less support, even if it would strengthen the argument in the long run. What still makes me laugh, is that if you discount the incest, Robert Baratheon is just as closely related to the Daynes as Rhaegar.

1.  :cheers: Thanks! And yes--you have seen me slog my way through this. And been one of those who gave me ideas for this so,  :cheers: again!

 

2. Section IV: Yes. You've drawn a big red circle around my problem here. I really think Martin has made a narrative-outlined mystical presentation of Jon's identity in the books to foreshadow Jon's eventual full epiphany. 

 

And if I follow the narrative-based model, the easiest answer is ALJ:

 

--Jon longs to win his father's greatsword and name.

--But Ned is not his father--he's a stand-in. And Ice is not the original sword, either. It's also a stand-in.

--Jon wins an ancestral bastard sword from his father figure--an intermediate and foreshadowing move.

--But he cannot win Ice--it has fallen with Ned and been broken and defiled. And he cannot win Ned's name--Ned's fallen through betrayal. The stand-ins, whom Jon loves and longs for, have fallen.

--But Jon has been given a "vision" of the original: The Sword of the Morning at Dawn at the Wall.

--The easiest narrative answer: Arthur is the original father. Dawn is the original Ice. And Jon will get Dawn.

 

But here's my block: RLJ has narrative set-up, too. I'm assuming you read Kingmonkey's RLJ essay--it's one of the reasons I went with the narrative set-up type approach (though I think he did it better). The set up for Lyanna as Jon's mother is much clearer in the novels than Rhaegar as father. But the hints are there. And Rhaegar has Daynish blood.

 

So, you're right: this would be much cleaner with ALJ. But I can't chuck Rhaegar under the bus--not yet. He's still on the table of options in my head. May be more emotion than logic, but I just can't chuck him. Not yet.

 

I was originally surprised that you didn't make more of Jon's unintended self-sacrifice at the end of aDwD. Although, upon reflection, I'm not sure if it would have added support, or just complicated the issue more.

Yeah--that's very fair. I left out Ygritte as Vivienne/Nimue in the cave and left out the sacrifice. Was thinking that if this argument went well, I could do follow-ups on those. 

 

But I do think the sacrifice is significant--if nothing else, it sets Jon up as different from Dany: her weapons/dragons came via a chosen fire and blood sacrifice of others. Jon's earned weapons by risking himself for others. Really think that's going to make a difference.

 

I think that I'm going to have to go back and reread Voice's theory about Dawn being Ice again. I was originally pretty much on board with that idea, but it does seem to complicate the idea of Jon being SotM. Will have to consider both ideas with the other in mind. Either way, it's possible that it might have little impact on the idea of Jon finding his true identity as the SotM.

Great work! :cheers:

Voice's argument is solid. As are LmL's.

 

I myself am starting to think Ice is the name given for the stand-in sword for Dawn, once Dawn was taken south (reason to be determined). That there weren't two swords originally, just the one Dawn. Which would, to co-opt LmL's phrase, make Ice a "Black Ice"--the shadow/echo sword of the original. A place-holder, as Ned is place holder for Jon's original father.

 

Note: I do think Ned is Jon's father in every human way that matters. But mystically and blood-wise: Jon needs to know the original, too.

 

So, thanks! And, again:  :cheers:

[Mithras]

Ice and Dawn might not be the same but close cousins or siblings.

[Sly Wren]

Ice and Dawn might not be the same but close cousins or siblings.

That could work--like Dawn survived and the original Ice was lost/destroyed?

 

Am also thinking about sigils, though. They are only supposed to represent the "magic" of beasts anciently tied to the house in questions.

 

And that tie is lost for some. IE: the Lannisters. The lions are all dead. When Jaime has his dream under the Rock, Brienne asks if there are lions or cave bears. Jaime says not, only doom. The Lannister sigil is just a symbol.

 

But the current Starks ARE direwolves: "you are Summer and Summer is you." Their banners have been burned. The symbol destroyed. But the reality behind the symbol is back. They are direwolves.

 

Am wondering if it might be the same with Ice. Ice is a trace, a symbol/stand-in for the original true greatsword, Dawn. Like the banners, Ice is broken and corrupted. But it doesn't matter. Jon's seen the real thing.

 

Like the stars I discussed at the start of all this. They all have different names. The symbols are changeable. Except the Sword of the Morning. It alone lasts through the night until dawn when it shines. Its name and meaning stay constant.

 

So just as the sigil of the direwolf has been replaced by real direwolves, the symbol/stand-in of Dawn (Ice) will be replaced by Dawn. Jon wants his father's "true greatsword." Not the bastard Longclaw that is much easier for use in fighting.

 

Martin has said that Ice was never used in battle because it's too awkward. But Dawn is used in battle--we know Arthur uses it at the tower of joy and to kill the Smiling Knight. Dawn is a superior weapon. A true greatsword that can actually be used and prevail in battle. And Jon's got a battle coming.

 

Maybe.

[DarkSister1001]

Ice and Dawn might not be the same but close cousins or siblings.

Original Ice could have been reforged into Dawn the way Ned's Ice was made into Oathkeeper & Widow's Wail.   

[Codename: Nymeria]

Okay, so, I read through the OP (which was awesome) but not the subsequent, but my two cents:

 

this makes even more sense if Dawn is the original Ice. That way, Jon doesn't require a complete disassociation from his Stark heritage; rather, now that the second Ice has left the Starks, it is left to Jon to reclaim the sword in his family's name, thus further cementing his status as a Stark. 

 

Although I'm still not clear on how, physically, Dawn would make it's way that far north.

 

This also makes me wonder if House Dayne's words don't reference the Ice/Dawn identity in some way. It has to be something revealing, and that'd make as much sense an anything I can think of.

[LmL]

^^^ says "I didnt read the comments," then makes exact comment others made. LoL. :)

[Sly Wren]

Okay, so, I read through the OP (which was awesome) but not the subsequent, but my two cents:

 

this makes even more sense if Dawn is the original Ice. That way, Jon doesn't require a complete disassociation from his Stark heritage; rather, now that the second Ice has left the Starks, it is left to Jon to reclaim the sword in his family's name, thus further cementing his status as a Stark. 

 

Although I'm still not clear on how, physically, Dawn would make it's way that far north.

 

This also makes me wonder if House Dayne's words don't reference the Ice/Dawn identity in some way. It has to be something revealing, and that'd make as much sense an anything I can think of.

1. Yup! That's what I was just yapping about a few posts up. 

 

Voice of the First Men is the first one who insisted to me that Jon was Sword of the Morning. I didn't believe him--until I read his "How Ice Became Dawn" essay--and reread Storm Jon III and IV. Then my head started looping and--well, you just read it.

 

But I think that Ice as "sigil" for Dawn makes a kind of sense--after all, Dawn can be used in battle. Ice can't. And other reasons I give above.

 

2. On House Daynes' words--I would not be surprised. I'm also wondering if the tradition of "only a worthy Dayne" is a trace of Dawn's origins, too. Jon sees the Sword like a mystical epiphany. The idea that the sword bestows itself on a worthy wielder--method to be determined--seems at least possible.

 

But the Daynes' remembered it as only giving it to worthy fighter. They did the bestowing. Until the next, true Sword of the Morning rises--Jon.

 

3. How Jon gets Dawn? My best guess is magical bestowal, as I said above. If Jon has to pull it out of a stone my eyes might never stop rolling. But Martin has strewn Arthurian references throughout the texts. And Dawn is completely unique. Really think it's going to be a magical bestowal.

 

^^^ says "I didnt read the comments," then makes exact comment others made. LoL. :)

:)

[Sly Wren]

Original Ice could have been reforged into Dawn the way Ned's Ice was made into Oathkeeper & Widow's Wail.   

Maybe--but Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail seem like they've been defiled--the descriptions of the attempts to color the steel make it sound like the sword is NOT happy about being split.

 

But a reforging--maybe. Reforged to wait for the next Long Night.

[OuttaOldtown]

Sorry, it seems awfully convoluted, the books will need to make sense in the end to those who aren't dissecting it every day. If the Dayne's were this important I would really think they'd be playing a bigger role in the story. It's possible they're involved but not at the center of arguably the biggest mystery in the series..

[DarkSister1001]

Maybe--but Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail seem like they've been defiled--the descriptions of the attempts to color the steel make it sound like the sword is NOT happy about being split.

 

But a reforging--maybe. Reforged to wait for the next Long Night.

The steel remembers.  :)  Perhaps WW and OK were unhappy about being torn apart and color added to them.  Funny enough, they're described as cousins and not twins. 

 

ETA:  I promise I know the difference between There, They're and Their!

[Codename: Nymeria]

 

^^^ says "I didnt read the comments," then makes exact comment others made. LoL.  :)

 

Hey, I did freely admit it. I only have so much time before I have to flip back to doing actual "work".  :rolleyes:

 

3. How Jon gets Dawn? My best guess is magical bestowal, as I said above. If Jon has to pull it out of a stone my eyes might never stop rolling. But Martin has strewn Arthurian references throughout the texts. And Dawn is completely unique. Really think it's going to be a magical bestowal.

 

 

 

Perhaps the Lady of the Lake (of R'hllor's fire), her arms clad in the purest shimmering scamite, holds aloft Exc...Dawn from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence... (what?! like you weren't prompting this?)

[Sly Wren]

The steel remembers.  :)  Perhaps WW and OK were unhappy about being torn apart and color added to them.  Funny enough, their described as cousins and not twins. 

1. Perfect! Exactly. :)

 

2. I'd forgotten about the "cousins" vs. "twins." Huh. Don't want to read to much into this, but here I go: seems a bit like showing how Jaime (given the cousin sword of his own son/nephew) is separating from his family. And he gives it to Brienne. To protect Sansa. Yes. . that might be something. . . 

 

Sorry, it seems awfully convoluted, the books will need to make sense in the end to those who aren't dissecting it every day. If the Dayne's were this important I would really think they'd be playing a bigger role in the story. It's possible they're involved but not at the center of arguably the biggest mystery in the series..

Completely fair. 

 

But I would only argue that the "vision" of the Sword of the Morning isn't pieced together with clues from the text. It's just the narrative structure of Jon III and Jon IV in Storm. A classic dark night of the soul, belly of the whale, temptation scenario from many other stories. Resulting in an epiphany. Classic patterns. Not clues scattered throughout the text.

 

So, the vision at least--seems like Martin is leading us right to it. 

 

How Jon will get Dawn and/or become the Sword of the Morning? That could get convoluted. But most theories about what characters will do takes some convoluting.

[Sly Wren]

Perhaps the Lady of the Lake (of R'hllor's fire), her arms clad in the purest shimmering scamite, holds aloft Exc...Dawn from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence... (what?! like you weren't prompting this?)

HA!

 

The (obviously) red-haired Lady of the Lake presents Jon with Dawn reverently. And, as she places the sword in his hands, she looks deep into his eyes and says,

 

"You knew nothing, Jon Snow. Now, you know SOMETHING!!!"

[LmL]

Ok, that's enough. LISTEN.

Strang women, lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! =P

Can't stand these farcical aquatic ceremonies.

[DarkSister1001]

1. Perfect! Exactly. :)

 

2. I'd forgotten about the "cousins" vs. "twins." Huh. Don't want to read to much into this, but here I go: seems a bit like showing how Jaime (given the cousin sword of his own son/nephew) is separating from his family. And he gives it to Brienne. To protect Sansa. Yes. . that might be something. . . 

 I have a theory in my Sig Line about Crasters Son and the forging of Others Weapons. 

 

But back to what you said:

 

QUOTE:  “Nor I, my lord,” said the armorer.  “I confess, these colors are not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them.  Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was the color I set to infuse into the metal.  But Valyrian steel is stubborn.  These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily.  I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it.  And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see.  If my lord of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but” <snip>

 

If not twins, the two were at least close cousins.  This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night.  Three fullers, deeply incised, ran down the second blade from hilt to point; the king’s sword only had two.  Joff’s hilt was a good deal more ornate, the arms of its crossguard done as lion’s paws with ruby claws unsheathed, but both swords had grips of finely tooled red leather and gold lions’ heads for pommels.  

“Magnificent.”  Even in hands as unskilled as Tyrion’s, the blade felt alive.  “I have never felt better balance.”

ASoS, Chapter 32, Tyrion

[Sly Wren]

 I have a theory in my Sig Line about Crasters Son and the forging of Others Weapons. 

 

But back to what you said:

1. The "Fate of Craster's Sons" one? Thanks for calling it to my attention! I'll read it when I get home.

 

2. Thanks for the quotes! The mismatch of the swords is interesting--why not make them equal? Did they realize how pointless Joff is compared to Jaime's fighting? Ironic in the face of Jaime's losing his sword hand--sacrificing the Starks, stealing and breaking their weapon, and now no one in family can wield it.

 

But the main thing that strikes me is the colors again. Targ-ish, yes. But fighting. The sword is fighting the red, not joining with it. And the dark gray makes the red darker--the gray isn't kicking the red out, but it is absolutely changing the red. Really seems like the Stark-Lannister war encapsulated in two swords.

[Sly Wren]

Ok, that's enough. LISTEN.

Strang women, lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! =P

Can't stand these farcical aquatic ceremonies.

What! Have you gone mad, man? 

 

Varys is an effeminate, aquatic-dwelling merman. And he IS the government!

[LmL]

1. The "Fate of Craster's Sons" one? Thanks for calling it to my attention! I'll read it when I get home.

 

2. Thanks for the quotes! The mismatch of the swords is interesting--why not make them equal? Did they realize how pointless Joff is compared to Jaime's fighting? Ironic in the face of Jaime's losing his sword hand--sacrificing the Starks, stealing and breaking their weapon, and now no one in family can wield it.

 

But the main thing that strikes me is the colors again. Targ-ish, yes. But fighting. The sword is fighting the red, not joining with it. And the dark gray makes the red darker--the gray isn't kicking the red out, but it is absolutely changing the red. Really seems like the Stark-Lannister war encapsulated in two swords.

 

I just wanted to say I don't think you should put too much stock into this idea of the sword fighting the colors, defilement, etc. I'm not saying that is totally off, but you're missing other aspects here because you are so busy thinking about it in one way. It's a transformation. The sword has two materials, and that is why one layer doesn't take the red door. It isn't steel. The other half is DARKENING the red to the color of blood - "blood and fire," not crimson and fire - because I believe it is made from the greasy black moon meteors, which drank the sun's fire. Asshai's black stone drinks the light, just like Ned's sword. The color changes here are not sentimental, they are indicative of the ingredients. The steel wants to be DARK, that is it's proclivity. It wants to drink light, darken everything. Unleash waves of night and blood. That's Lightbringer.

 

I'm working on an essay explaining exactly what the waves of night and blood mean, actually, but the very short version is that it refers to the concept of black blood, which is produced by fire transformation (such as in Mel's vision sequence); it refers to an actual flood which was triggered by the Lightbringer meteors landing in the ocean; and it refers to an invasion of Ironborn. At Winterfell in ACOK, the Ironborn's invasion was described as a dark tide in Jojen's vision, and in the same scene we see that drowning in water is symbolically the same as drowning on blood (Mikken). Of course there's a ton of evidence to support this, as is my usual style. That essay is coming soon.

Ned's "Black Ice" has been transformed, perhaps in an unholy way - but again, that's what Lightbringer is all about. It's a wicked weapon, but used for a noble purpose somehow, at least one important time. Although I don't think this has anything to do with the color change, Black Ice was consecrated with ned's own blood. George takes the time to show us during the battle of the Blackwater that Ilyn Paine doesn't clean the blood off of his sword, so if you want to think about Black Ice having been soaked in Ned's blood, sure, that might be symbolically significant. What I think is even more important about Oathkeeper is that it is being used to offer blood sacrifice to weirwoods. Brienne kills under the weirwood at the Whispers, burying the bodies beneath the tree even. Now she is in Stoneheart's lair with Jaime, among the weirwood roots. And you better believe she's going to be doing some killing down there, and again the weirwoods will drink the blood. Ned always washed the blood off of Black Ice in the cold black pond beneath the Winterfell heart tree. That's the same idea - offering blood sacrifice to heart trees with sword which either symbolized Lightbringer or IS ACTUALLY Lightbringer. I have found a lot of evidence to suggest this, but it's also possible that all V steel is made with the black moon meteors, and therefore all V steel can become a Lightbringer. But, despite what Cat thinks about Black Ice coming from Valyria 400 years ago, I do think it's possible Ned's sword was actually Lightbringer, in disguise. 

If you think about it, Black Ice is the first and most significant sword in the series. It's the firstone we see, and the scene in the Godswood with Ned and Cat makes A LOT OF FUSS about the sword and its dark glow. Anyway. I am just wanting to encourage you to make your thinking a bit more flexible about Oathkeeper. The defilement is only one aspect, and perhaps not the most important. Every word in those 5 paragraphs describing the two swords is carefully chosen and worthy of reflection. Why all the watery language? Shimmering, ripples, waves, a steely shore... it's awfully wet for a dragonsteel sword, don't you think?

[LmL]

What! Have you gone mad, man? 

 

Varys is an effeminate, aquatic-dwelling merman. And he IS the government!

 

Ah but is he distributing swords? I guess, in his own "little" way...

 

“I am sorry.” Varys wrung his hands. “You are suffering, I know, yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman. Time to make an end to it.” The eunuch pursed his lips and gave a little whistle. Ser Kevan was cold as ice, and every labored breath sent a fresh stab of pain through him. He glimpsed movement, heard the soft scuffling sound of slippered feet on stone. A child emerged from a pool of darkness, a pale boy in a ragged robe, no more than nine or ten. Another rose up behind the Grand Maester’s chair. The girl who had opened the door for him was there as well. They were all around him, half a dozen of them, white-faced children with dark eyes, boys and girls together.

 

And in their hands, the daggers.  (ADWD, Epilogue)