Mithras Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Many readers think that Tolkien wrote black or white characters, which is bad and boring; but George beats him with his complex, grey characters, which is good and fun to read. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Tolkien had plenty of complex characters. Gollum, Denethor, Theoden, Boromir and many others were very grey iirc. Maybe not as many as ASOIAF, but those who say LotR was totally black and white are mistaken. Ultimately complex characters aren't the only component that makes a series great. Martin beats Tolkien in some aspects, but Tolkien beats Martin in just as many if not more. Martin is also a bit more readable especially from a 2010s perspective, but LOTR and the Legendarium is a greater work, imo. But if we're strictly speaking of characters, I do actually prefer Martins. I haven't bonded with any Tolkien character as much as I have Jaime, Sansa, Bran etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scootaloo Stark Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 That's kinda how it is. Tolkien has few grey characters. Then again, even Melkor, Sauron or Saruman weren't always purely evil. The important thing is that Tolkien wanted to invent a mythology, not write a fantasy novel in today's sense. Most of Martin's characters are grey, all in different shades. Some are almost black (or completely). I know perfect heroes are boring, but I wouldn't mind a few more almost white characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I think both creat the more interesting characters by accident, rather than by design, though I admit that most of my knowledge of Tolkein's world is from the movies. I only read the Hobbit when I was younger, and some wiki-digging for stuff that was edited out of the movies or was in other books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 But if we're strictly speaking of characters, I do actually prefer Martins. I haven't bonded with any Tolkien character as much as I have Jaime, Sansa, Bran etc. That might be because of the POV structure of George instead of omnipotent narrator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 Are any of George's characters half as complex as Feanor or Turin or Hurin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 GRRM is simply a better write, so its not really a fair comparison. I have always thought that Tolkien was a great story teller/ great world builder, but not a great enough writer to tell his stories properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Are any of George's characters half as complex as Feanor or Turin or Hurin? Whoah whoah whoah. I agree with everything peeps like Fat Mac and Scootaloo say. Tolkien created plenty of round characters with moral complexity. The thing is that Tolkien would not call them "grey". Tolkien has a different view on good, evil, and judging actions and people. Tolkien is old school so he's probably virtue ethics based or catholic ethics based. I tend to believe he would say that you couldn't completely judge a character until they are dead, or the last page of the book. That said, George's characters ARE more complex then Tolkien's, because Tolkien and George are writing different kinds of novels. Tolkien was fantasy patterned on "myth", with a flavor like Beowulf or The Nibelungenlied. Martin is writing a fantasy patterned on the basic (historical) novel, like The Three Musketeers, or War and Peace. Hence Martin's characters would be, and are IMO, much "rounder" and more detailed than Tolkien's. So yeah, I'd say Tyrion, Arya, Ned, Robert, and company, are just as complex, if not far far more, than Turin, Hurin, or Feanor. Tolkien's most round characters are in LOTR anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
targurl 15 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I love A song of ice and fire, but hate Lord of the Rings. Is that weird? And does anyone else feel like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I love A song of ice and fire, but hate Lord of the Rings. Is that weird? And does anyone else feel like that? How old are you? Which did you see first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Not true, Tolkien did typically write from a more macro oriented perspective, but if you read the Silmarillion, you get the complexity, Galadriel had visions of ruling her own land, but that's not seen the Lord of the Rings, I mean, her ambition is not. The Lord of the Rings was a very specific instance in a history, but at the earlier stages, Isildur, ruled by pride sought dominion over the One Ring. Just because Tolkien didn't get into the grungy sex of it all, didn't vividly describe what happened to those captured by Orcs, doesn't mean the characters aren't complex, he's just zoomed out, you have to read all the ancillary works to see the flaws in the characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slant Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Aegon is a realistic Aragorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Writhen Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 You can't really have an epic author battle because they work in tandem. Without Tolkien's direct influence there prolly wouldn't be an ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 A battle that GRRM certainly wins, in my opinion. Tolkien's work has (rightfully) earned him the title of father of the modern fantasy; but his characters aren't as complex and fleshed out as Martin's. It's a matter of personal experience as well: I just can't feel any of the Tolkien's characters as good as I feel e.g. Arya, Jaime, Tyrion, Catelyn, Theon, Dany, Robb etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 You can't really have an epic author battle because they work in tandem. I have come to the conclusion that for the high-systematizers, there is no such thing as an epic battle that you cannot have. Enterprise vs Star Destroyer, Drogon vs Jet Fighters, Spartans vs Zulus, Jesus Christ vs Cthulu. It's all in bounds, and the answer is "42". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodraven's Bastard Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Many readers think that Tolkien wrote black or white characters, which is bad and boring; but George beats him with his complex, grey characters, which is good and fun to read. What do you think? I think that Tolkein was a God to Martin, but Tolkien cannot critique Martin. Because he's long dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConfusedCounselor Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I have come to the conclusion that for the high-systematizers, there is no such thing as an epic battle that you cannot have. Enterprise vs Star Destroyer, Drogon vs Jet Fighters, Spartans vs Zulus, Jesus Christ vs Cthulu. It's all in bounds, and the answer is "42". Add some sex scene's and people will watch the heck out of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Add some sex scene's and people will watch the heck out of this. Prisoner of Azkaban Harry Potter vs Malachi's army of succubi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 That's kinda how it is. Tolkien has few grey characters. Then again, even Melkor, Sauron or Saruman weren't always purely evil. The important thing is that Tolkien wanted to invent a mythology, not write a fantasy novel in today's sense. Most of Martin's characters are grey, all in different shades. Some are almost black (or completely). I know perfect heroes are boring, but I wouldn't mind a few more almost white characters. #teamDavos #teamBrienne #teamJon #teamSam #teamGendry #teamNedDayne #teamCrannog #teammaesterLuwin,Aemon Sansa might make the list before it's all said and done. Any others? These are my "basically do what they know to be right at all times" list. I am sure there are more. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I have come to the conclusion that for the high-systematizers, there is no such thing as an epic battle that you cannot have. Enterprise vs Star Destroyer, Drogon vs Jet Fighters, Spartans vs Zulus, Jesus Christ vs Cthulu. It's all in bounds, and the answer is "42". All battles fought in room 237. :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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