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Tolkien vs. GRRM: A Battle of Complex Characters


Mithras

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That might be because of the POV structure of George instead of omnipotent narrator.

 

There is no doubt that Martin has been very creative in making the most out of the use of multiple POVs. This is a subject that deserves its own topic. As an aspiring writer, I think it's really fascinating. The interesting part of art is always about the restrictions and limitations of the medium. Pushing against those boundaries - how realistic can you make a mosaic appear, for example? - is where creativity comes out. The inherent limitations of unreliable narrator and the lack of an omnipotent narrator are fascinating, and again, George has made the most of these. I find I greatly prefer both of these techniques, and have a hard time envisioning myself not trying to use them when I get around to writing more of my own stuff instead of theories about ASOIAF.

 

When I read another book an the omnipotent narrator comes in with the "...and little did he know that that would be the last time he would ever..." I just roll my eyes and cringe. I think more people should adopt George's style in this regard - the unreliable narrator has the effect of making the reader work harder, pay attention more, because they aren't being spoon fed. George makes you work to figure out which thoughts in a characters inner monologue are wrong... it's so much more engaging. 

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As much as I like Tolkien's works I am going to give the victory to GRRM here. After all creating complex characters is his speciality just as worldbuilding is Tolkien's.

 

I would have to agree with this.

 

LOTR was my original favorite fantasy series of all time,and is still #2. ASOIAF is the best fantasy series I've ever read, vivid and detailed, doing everything right with multiple layers of everything. BUT! Tolkien has his strengths. Because of his professorial, historical, linguist background, there is a kind of weighty authenticity to his fantasy that I've never found anywhere else, even ASOIAF, though World of Ice and Fire is a fantastic, Silmarillion-like addition to the cannon that no other author besides Tolkien has surpassed. 

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I still think he would be. If he could have seen the direct outgrowth of his work he would have been very pleased. :fencing:

 

Yeah I don't get the assumption that Tolkein wouldn't like work that is different from his own. But I think the point in this thread is discuss the differences and similarities, so I suppose it's just a way of saying that they are different. But I agree, I am sure Tolkein would be thrilled to see what fantasy has become as genre, including ASOIAF which of course has done more for the genre than anyone in recent memory. 

 

Similarly, I'm sure Martin rolls his eyes at the show as much as we, but he's still proud of it, and proud his work has created / inspired something that has been so successful and appealing, even if it often misses the point (points) of his own work. 

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hmmm

tolkein's craftsmanship was self referential, like arwen and aragorn could be compared to beren and luthien

this is something that grrm has not attempted to do at all, asoiaf has shout outs to all of speculative fiction

but, tolkein did do something similar with fairy tales and nursery rhymes... 

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hmmm

tolkein's craftsmanship was self referential, like arwen and aragorn could be compared to beren and luthien

this is something that grrm has not attempted to do at all, asoiaf has shout outs to all of speculative fiction

but, tolkein did do something similar with fairy tales and nursery rhymes... 

 

Are you suggesting that Martin's main story characters are not references to historical / mythical figures in ASOIAF? Because they absolutely are, every single one of them. Please correct me if I misunderstood. 

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tolkein made a self contained story, a perfect and accurate chronology

tolkein characters live in a perfectly constructed and unique fantasy world

grrm borderline abuses unreliable narrator and an exhaustive list of other fantasy and sci fi authors he has referenced in his works

grrm characters live in an admixture of all speculative fiction worlds

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tolkein made a self contained story, a perfect and accurate chronology, you can believe every word your read, and all of it is about the tolkein legendarium

tolkein characters live in a perfectly constructed and unique fantasy world

grrm uses unreliable narrator and an exhaustive list of other fantasy and sci fi authors he has referenced in his works

grrm characters live in an admixture of all speculative fiction worlds

 

 

Right on, gotchya. Although I am fairly certain Tolkien drew influences from external mythology, including Norse mythology, so I'm not sure your point holds in the extreme dichotomy you are presenting. I'd agree George is probably using more external references, and certainly that he is drawing from a lot of history / historical fiction writing, but of course Tolkien was influenced by external myth. 

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Are you suggesting that Martin's main story characters are not references to historical / mythical figures in ASOIAF? Because they absolutely are, every single one of them. Please correct me if I misunderstood. 


I think the meaning is that Tolkien drew from myths to create a new myth-story. Martin takes from EVERYTHING to create a fantasy novel, much closer to The Once and Future King than The Lord of the Rings.
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