Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[sweetsunray]

 

The lady is clearly a con artist. She plays the whole "all children are part of the great heard" line one moment and is summoning demons the next.

 

The fact that a strong guy like Drogo couldn't keep a bandage on is also something I found strange.

 

1 - I don't see any evidence that she's a con artist. Do you know of any Lhazareen taboo on using Ashai magic?

 

2 - Actually it's not strange at all. Many strong guys moan and whimper almost like they're dying when they have a cold. Men physically experience pain differently than women. They do alright with instant pain, but nagging pain or discomfort... nope. This is one of the few gender difference I accept.

[Nights Kings Queen]

Ιt's not me who started a thread in order to attack someone's opinions because I cannot accept that my fav character was a monster on that case.

If that is what you believe tell me again how Cat didn't wanted Jon death. Because just like Cat, MMD was emotionally compromised and of course she said some mean things.

:rolleyes: where did you get the impression Daenerys was my fav character? Yes, she would be on the list for my top 10, but I've never said she was my fav.
It's not an attack. I'm not the one pulling up :bs: and :bang: emojis. Your confusing an attack, for a discussion.
"Mean things". It's funny how she didn't take these "mean things" back when she tied up on a pyre.
These "mean things" she said, seem like something the MMD we saw later, would do

[Taenqyrhae]

In the books, Drogo isn't even in that bad a shape after Mirri's treatment.  He was able to walk, be led from place to place, seemed to enjoy the sunshine, and could chew and swallow if food was put to his mouth.  He wasn't a total vegetable as he was portrayed in the show.

He just came back from an extremely traumatic, near death experience where a good portion of his necrotized chest was magically replaced with healthy flesh.  People are quite often out of it and not themselves for a time after a traumatic experience.  Medically, Drogo appears to be someone on a good start through a lengthy recovery, and I would expect him to be back to his old self within a few months.  Dany didn't have time for that, though, so she smothered him.

[sifth]

 

1 - I don't see any evidence that she's a con artist. Do you know of any Lhazareen taboo on using Ashai magic?

 

2 - Actually it's not strange at all. Many strong guys moan and whimper almost like they're dying when they have a cold. Men physically experience pain differently than women. They do alright with instant pain, but nagging pain or discomfort... nope. This is one of the few gender difference I accept.

 

Ohh, trust the friendly demon summoner, I'm sure she'll be perfectly honest with you, lol

 

She even mentions at the end how she doesn't view what Dany did as "saving her" and is amused that Dany now feels the despair she felt the day Drogo burnt down her temple, gang rapped her and killed her friends. Yea, this person has no reason for revenge on Drogo and Dany, nope, none at all.

[Nights Kings Queen]

1 - I don't see any evidence that she's a con artist. Do you know of any Lhazareen taboo on using Ashai magic?
 
2 - Actually it's not strange at all. Many strong guys moan and whimper almost like they're dying when they have a cold. Men physically experience pain differently than women. They do alright with instant pain, but nagging pain or discomfort... nope. This is one of the few gender difference I accept.

Drogo seemed to handle pain well. He sent all the healers to heal his fighters before him, and his wounds seemed painful.

[Lady Sharya]

Yes they are.
I've seen posts saying how Mirri hatched Dany's Dragons, and never intended Rhaego or Drogo's death. A lot of people are justifying it.
I would buy into the explanation your giving for Dany's birth, if Mirri didn't outright state Rhaego was the price for saving Drogo (through blood magic)

There is nothing in the text to support the claim that Mirri intended the deaths of Drogo or Rhaego, except her hindsight explanation when she knew that she was doomed due to the stupidity of others not following her advise.

If the Essos POV were Mirri Mazda, then she would have been seen as highly sympathetic character who tried to help her captors despite the atrocities committed against her people.

[Taenqyrhae]

Drogo seemed to handle pain well. He sent all the healers to heal his fighters before him, and his wounds seemed painful.

The Dothraki wound treatment techniques seem very primitive compared to those of Westeros, and there are different kinds of pain.  One can grow quite used to having their flesh cut and torn, but freak out at being burnt, or cool with having a needle pushed through their skin but not with alcohol being poured into an open wound.  Dothraki medicine seems to be all pain management, while Westerosi warriors know that sometimes you have to have boiled wine poured into your wounds and you just scream and deal with it.

I recall that "fire" was part of the name of the herbs that were in the poultice, and seem to recall her explaining that it would burn.  Jorah probably could have dealt with the burning and itching caused by the poultice, but not a primitive Dothraki.

[Nights Kings Queen]

There is nothing in the text to support the claim that Mirri intended the deaths of Drogo or Rhaego, except her hindsight explanation when she knew that she was doomed due to the stupidity of others not following her advise.
If the Essos POV were Mirri Mazda, then she would have been seen as highly sympathetic character who tried to help her captors despite the atrocities committed against her people.

One - there is. She clearly manipulated Rhaego's birth (or it seems so to me).
Two - if we got her PoV, of course she would seem sympathetic. I can't find the exact words, but George said something like "Mel and Mirri Maz Durr view themselves as heroes. But the truth is... Well I leave that for the readers to decide".

[Jon's Queen Consort]

 

The fact that a strong guy like Drogo couldn't keep a bandage on is also something I found strange.

Really? Because most of the "tough" macho men I have meat don't accept a bandage or don't care about their wounds because it make them to seem less strong.

:rolleyes: where did you get the impression Daenerys was my fav character? Yes, she would be on the list for my top 10, but I've never said she was my fav.
It's not an a attack. I'm not the one pulling up  :bs: and  :bang: emojis. Your confusing an attack, for a discussion.
"Mean things". It's funny how she didn't take these "mean things" back when she tied up on a pyre.
These "mean things" she said, seem like something the MMD we saw later, would do

This is not a discussion this is attacking. Do you understand that MMD had lost everything right? Because since she does lost everything she had no reason to take anything back. The facts are that Dany was injured and  stressed and she went to premature labour where she gave birth to a monstrousity that had happened to the Targs before. Clamming something that has nothing to do with the text just for the sake of a favorite character is silly. We know what MMD and we know that both of them did the exactly opposite.

[Lady Sharya]

If you believe in everything MMD said, then you should admit that Dany is no less guilty and monstrous than MMD.

:agree:
I like Dany, but Mirri was the better person in this scenario.

[sifth]

 

 

Really? Because most of the "tough" macho men I have meat don't accept a bandage or don't care about their wounds because it make them to seem less strong.

 

 

 

The ones I know, must have more sense than your friends, I assume.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The ones I know, must have more sense than your friends, I assume.

I think that the so called tough macho men act like that, don't show to be in pain and stuff like that.

[Nights Kings Queen]

Really? Because most of the "tough" macho men I have meat don't accept a bandage or don't care about their wounds because it make them to seem less strong.



This is not a discussion this is attacking. Do you understand that MMD had lost everything right? Because since she does lost everything she had no reason to take anything back. The facts are that Dany was injured and  stressed and she went to premature labour where she gave birth to a monstrousity that had happened to the Targs before. Clamming something that has nothing to do with the text just for the sake of a favorite character is silly. We know what MMD and we know that both of them did the exactly opposite.

So because you don't like what I'm saying its attacking? Am I insulting you? Am I being rude or disrespectful? Or have I just got differing views from your own?
Yes I understand MMD lost everything. It's why it's more probable that she did kill Rhaego and Drogo out of revenge. Instead of "she was helping".
Once again, where have I said she is my favorite character? Can I see this quote?

[Taenqyrhae]

 

Ohh, trust the friendly demon summoner, I'm sure she'll be perfectly honest with you, lol

 

She even mentions at the end how she doesn't view what Dany did as "saving her" and is amused that Dany now feels the despair she felt the day Drogo burnt down her temple, gang rapped her and killed her friends. Yea, this person has no reason for revenge on Drogo and Dany, nope, none at all.

I think the god of the Lhazareen may be real - she got her revenge, and she enjoyed her revenge, and she did nothing other than follow her religion and try to help people.  By helping her enemies, she created a situation where they destroyed themselves.  It's a really neat piece of writing and ties in to the way prophecies and destiny work in the series, and I feel it's undercut by saying that she deliberately made Drogo's injuries worse.  It was fated that she would be put in a situation where Dany sacrificed her unborn child to give life to Drogo, and then she would take it away when he didn't bounce back immediately ready to get in the saddle and go take the Iron Throne back for her.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So because you don't like what I'm saying its attacking? Am I insulting you? Am I being rude or disrespectful? Or have I just got differing views from your own?
Yes I understand MMD lost everything. It's why it's more probable that she did kill Rhaego and Drogo out of revenge. Instead of "she was helping".
Once again, where have I said she is my favorite character? Can I see this quote?

Starting a thread just because you claim that what you see in the forum isn't true is attacking.

 

Again, you are talking nonsense. In the text there is nothing to say that MMD did that. The only thing we have is MMD's clear directions and that both Drogo and Dany did the exact opposite of what she said. 

[Taenqyrhae]

Accidental doublepost 

[sweetsunray]

She even mentions at the end how she doesn't view what Dany did as "saving her" and is amused that Dany now feels the despair she felt the day Drogo burnt down her temple, gang rapped her and killed her friends. Yea, this person has no reason for revenge on Drogo and Dany, nope, none at all.

 

Imagine... Some girl saves you from rape and murder. You're hurting, but you go with fate, and that innocent girl, and try your best healing your enemy under threat of death by barbaric ruffians- disinfecting, sowing up, etc... You give them the advice - it'll itch, it'll burn, but keep it on, don't do this and that. Patient completely ignores your medical advice. You probably roll your eyes already. He ends up having gangrene, and are called forth. It's too late to do anything. You say so. Girl desperately wants him to live, begging whether you don't know some maegi way. You do know it, but you know that somehow it'll come at some immense great price... and what you buy with it is most likely unsatisfactory. It would be more a kindness to allow the man to die. You say so. Girl still is deluding herself in her fear for loss and says, "Do it anyway." So, you prepare, and you warn the girl - whatever happens don't come in. You start the ritual... all hell breaks loose outside, caused by those barbaric ruffians, and the girl gets brought in. No good, but she's in labor so you help her deliver. The child is born as if it's been dead and rotten inside of the girl for weeks already. You tend to the man and the girl. She comes to finally, and you explain to her what happened. But the girl starts to accuse you, in complete denial. You know, after doing all that, I wouldn't give a flying fuck over it anymore either. If the girl wants to keep on being unreasonable and my life is forfeit anyway then I might do more than MMD, but a Tyrion - "Yup, right, I did it all on purpose." Even if MMD had used the kindest and gentlest explanations and words to Dany, Dany would still have lashed out at her, accused her and killed her. Whatever MMD had said or done, Dany needed a scapegoat and needed someone to exact revenge on. MMD realized that at some point. And that's when she became vicious and said whatever she could to stab the emotional dagger in the silly girl. If I was going to die anyway for the folly of others, I may just as well own it, even if I had nothing to do with it.

[Taenqyrhae]

 

Imagine... Some girl saves you from rape and murder. You're hurting, but you go with fate, and that innocent girl, and try your best healing your enemy under threat of death by barbaric ruffians- disinfecting, sowing up, etc... You give them the advice - it'll itch, it'll burn, but keep it on, don't do this and that. Patient completely ignores your medical advice. You probably roll your eyes already. He ends up hanging gangrene, and are called forth. It's too late to do anything. You say so. Girl desperately wants him to live, begging whether you don't know some maegi way. You do know it, but you know that somehow it'll come at some immense great price... and what you buy with it is most likely unsatisfactory. It would be more a kindness to allow the man to die. You say so. Girl still is deluding herself in her fear for loss and says, "Do it anyway." So, you prepare, and you warn the girl - whatever happens don't come in. You start the ritual... all hell breaks loose outside, caused by those barbaric ruffians, and the girl gets brought in. No good, but she's in labor so you help her deliver. The child is born as if it's been dead and rotten inside of the girl for weeks already. You tend to the man and the girl. She comes to finally, and you explain to her what happened. But the girl starts to accuse you, in complete denial. You know, after doing all that, I wouldn't give a flying fuck over it anymore either. If the girl wants to keep on being unreasonable then I might do more than MMD, but a Tyrion - "Yup, right, I did it all on purpose."

Agreed - and she may feel like it was done on purpose, through her god, as she is a religious woman - even if it was not.  "I loved my enemy and treated them to the best of my ability and destroyed them through their own actions.  Surely my god is an awesome god."

[Nights Kings Queen]

Starting a thread just because you claim that what you see in the forum isn't true is attacking.
 
Again, you are talking nonsense. In the text there is nothing to say that MMD did that. The only thing we have is MMD's clear directions and that both Drogo and Dany did the exact opposite of what she said.

So you just don't like what I'm saying.
At no point in this thread have I been unnecessarily rude. This is a discussion forum, you discuss opinions. If anyone's been attacking in this thread, it's been yourself.
I haven't called other people's opinions "nonsense" or "bs" (in emojis). You just don't like what I have to say, and call it "attacking"

[ShadowCat Rivers]

And you may be right, if MMD didn't admit to Dany that she used Rhaego as a sacrifice.

 

Here's an excerpt from ASOS, Tyrion XI:

Jaime handed him the ring of keys. “I gave you the truth. You owe me the same. Did you do it? Did you kill him?”

The question was another knife, twisting in his guts. “Are you sure you want to know?” asked Tyrion. “Joffrey would have been a worse king than Aerys ever was. He stole his father’s dagger and gave it to a footpad to slit the throat of Brandon Stark, did you know that?”

“I... I thought he might have.”

“Well, a son takes after his father. Joff would have killed me as well, once he came into his power. For the crime of being short and ugly, of which I am so conspicuously guilty.”

“You have not answered my question.”

“You poor stupid blind crippled fool. Must I spell every little thing out for you? Very well. Cersei is a lying whore, she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know. And I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son.” He made himself grin. It must have been a hideous sight to see, there in the torchlit gloom.

 

 

Are we to believe that Tyrion did, factually, kill Joffrey because he "admitted" so to Jaime? Or, on the contrary, should his behaviour here shed some light on MMD's possible reasons to "admit" something similar?

MMD could very well believe herself to be the scapegoat no matter what, and decided to own all the things she was accused of, in hindsight, to hurt Dany's feelings as a (minimum, but that was all she could do) sort of retaliation.

 

I don't buy that she manipulated Dany to make the choices that the did. Simply, this would imply the apriori knowledge of how a trully vast amount of details that the sequence of events relies on would actually turn out to implementation, details that seemingly are results of chance but that, MMD's supposed implication would require them to be products of her design, which would be just ridiculous. If she had that sort of power, she could have used it to save herself and her people.

 

Plus, in any case Dany is presented with clear choices. Unless she was possessed or something, Dany is responsible for her own choices no matter what MMD expected her to do, or not. She was not forced to chose the use of blood magic, she did it because she wanted to, although she was warned -by everyone- not to do it.