Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[RoamingRonin]

Mirri was to essentially be a healer for the people who destroyed her and her people... for the rest of her life. And she's supposed to appreciate that Dany's attempting to save her and some of the other women from abuse and rape by wanting to marry them off to their abusers... Dany's intentions are nice and all, but they aren't enough. Personally, I don't consider it any consolation to be married off to someone who's raped me, has killed my husband, burned down my home and is selling my children into sex slavery. Instead of becoming slaves in Meereen and Astapor, they were to become slaves for the Dothraki instead. Like Mirri said, what exactly did Dany save? Dany's view on marriage and sex is unsettling because of her own messed up experiences, but it's not hard to see why others would reject that way of life. I'm still trying to wrap my head around why anyone would be appeased in such a scenario and just decide to play nice. Or why anyone should be mildly grateful. 

 

Dany's view on marriage doesn't differ from Jon's. Alys Karstark comes begging him for help and he arranges her to be married to some wildling to protect her claim from relatives. He understands this is the best alternative for her, just like Dany does with the lamb women.

And again, just because Mirri lost a whole lot after being sacked by two Dothraki hordes doesn't mean it's the end of the world. She has every right to want to exact vengeance but her belief that life means nothing now that she has nothing is dumb. There are plenty of other characters that have lost more than her and they manage to carry on. Mirri doesn't have to play nice but she doesn't have to view Dany as an enemy either. She doesn't give Dany the benefit of the doubt.

[UnViserion]

There's no denying that Mirri performed a blood magic ritual. But there is no evidence that she targeted Dany's child. There were dead spirits in the tent. Once Dany was carried inside, the dead spirits claimed Rhaego for the sacrifice. It seems to me that once the spirits are summoned they act like a vortex. 
 
The Dothraki were hostile to any type of non-Dothraki healing. I get the impression they'd even call a maester a maegi. And it's little surprise Drogo's bloodriders would become violent for anyone to use magic on their Khal. Even the whole violent episode outside the tent does not fall outside what was to be expected as a reaction. It surprised Dany they started to stone her for it... but the way they were hostile from the start it isn't. Still, even without magic violence and agression has an almost "magical" ability to jump from one to the other in real life. It's not magical in real life of course, but it can spread like wildfire in the right conditions, pulling everyone in, indeed like a vortex (just have to point to the mob in KL). The scene is ambiguous enough to suggest that perhaps the spirits in the tent egged the "air" on for mob violence.
 
And it is that Mirri knew imo. She knew that the blood ritual and spirits would demand more blood. She did not know which blood, but there would be more. This was the reason that Mirri explictly ordered Dany out beforehand and telling her not to enter once the singing started for no reason. That she did this should be evidence enough that she had no intention of killing Rhaego. It defies all logic for Mirri to order her out if she intended to abort Rhaego. If she wanted to con Dany for that, she would have conned her into staying. Mirri was clear enough about it that Dany indeed tried to tell Jorah not to carry her in.
 
I don't think Rhaego was even targeted by the spirits, not until she fell and the fall and anxiety induced labour. On top of that the Dothraki healers refused to help her. Those mud smearing Dothraki healers refused to help her, because they called her cursed. I doubt that was caused by Mirri or the dead spirits in the tent.
 
From the get go, the whole plot shows free will after free will by others that led to Dany ending up in the tent.
 

• Drogo drinking milk of the poppy which would have tarried the healing process (and there's for Drogo not being that "macho" about pain after all). This is Drogo's decision.
• Then the poultice did what Mirri had told him beforehand - it would itch and burn. He ripped it off and had bacteria filled mud packed on it, because it feels more soothing. This is Drogo's decision and free will, and it the reason why developed gangrene (near the heart, no less)
• Dany asks Mirri whether she doesn't know some magical way to save his life, and despite the contrary advice against it, she orders Mirri to do it. This is Dany's decision.
• Mirri warns her not to enter the tent, not for any reason. It's Jorah who decides to carry her in. This is Jorah's decision.
• The bloodriders behave violent to Dany, shove her. These are the bloodriders' decisions. Qotho said he would kill her.
• The Dothraki start to pelt Dany with stones. These are the Dothrakis' decisions.
• Dany's labor begins and the birthing women refuse to help her.  They say she's cursed. These are the Dothraki healers' decisions.
• Irri and Doreah urge Jorah to carry her to the maegi. And Jorah carries her in.

 
Nowhere is it ever Mirri's decision. Meanwhile

• Mirri performs all the necessary medical steps: she removes the arrow, disinfects the wound with boiling alcohol, she puts a pale green paste on the wound, before covering it with his flap of skin. Both the color and the related healing symptoms suggest that what she smeared on him was a disinfectant or anti-inflamatory... If any germ got into the wound anyhow, the paste would have killed it. Yes, and on an open wound it would cause a burning sensation; heck even non-broken skin. Any women out there who have ever applied a facial mask? Some of those feel hot, burning and itchy... it's because of disinfecting stuff in the product. She later says she made a paste of "firepod" and "sting-me-not". The latter sounds something like nettles, which would have anti-inflamatory effects. The firepod sounds like it might have the same purpose. Usually wounds contain both aerobe as well as anaerobe germs. Both need to be tackled, not just the one time, but as long as the wound is open.
• Mirri gives all the necessary medical advice to help it heal fast, explains that there will be a burning sensation and itching (actually itching is a common sign of skin healing anyway)
• Mirri states the most obvious - with the gangrene on his chest and it already having affected his general vitality and consciousness implies it's in his blood system for all his body. Drogo is dying.
• She confirms she knows a blood magic ritual that may heal his gangrene, but she warns her that it's hard, dark, and death would be cleaner. She also mentions she paid dear for the lesson in Ashai. And she mentions only death can pay for life.
• She tellls Dany to go outside, who initially refuses to go. Mirri says she must. She informs that powers dark and old will be conjured up, that the dead will dance inside, and no one living must look at them.

The accusations against Mirri

• That she cursed Drogo with some malicioius spell in her temple. And yet she used no magic, but common medical tools. We know that spells don't work that easily. Spells come with a price. Mirri performed no physical sacrifice for any spell to work. On top of that, there was no comet yet and dragons weren't yet born. Magic was still weak. And gods aren't real either. It's common in most healing of religious cultures to utter prayers while applying medical procedures. Even Christians did this not so long ago. It's superstition. Even if Mirri said stuff like "let it not work at all," then her words have no more power than Cat telling Jon it should have been him.
• That possibly she poisoned the poultice as some long con, so that Drogo would rip it off, and use Dothraki healer mud. Well the easiest way to con Drogo, without having a bloodrider tell you that her fate is tied to Drogo's fate, is to not offer any medical assistance at all. Or to apply some "soothing mud" full of germs, and do exactly the same thing that those Dothraki healers do. It wasn't poison that caused gangrene. He was blood poisoned by his own people. If you wish to poison someone, whether food or medicine, you won't use something that tastes awful or itches and burns.
• That she performed the magic with the specific intent to turn Drogo into a vegetable. Hello, he was dying. Silliest con ever - someone is hours away from dying, but the best revenge is to heal his body? And I think those arguments made about Drogo not being in an outright vegetative state, but possibly still physically traumatized and in recovery, and it was too early to make any such conclusion actually might be right. His body was basically completely shell shocked from the blood poisoning that ran throughout his body and brain.
• That she performed the magic with the specific intent to abort Rhaego. But all those involved leading up to Dany being carried into the tent make such a conclusion beyond begging the belief. Since when does Mirri have magical control over Drogo's bloodriders, over Dothraki hurling stones at Dany, over birthing women's opinions, over Irri, Doreah and Jorah? Furthermore, it would have been so easy for her to con Dany into staying if Mirri intended Dany to lose her child. Heck, she could have just do no ritual at all, be at her side for the birthing and botch it up. There is no evidence that Mirri wanted to kill Rhaego, not even a confesstion.
• It's argued that she confessed. She did nothing of the sort. What she said was that Dany knew. What she said was that Mirri was glad Rhaego would not grow up to be the Koeblai Khan of Essos and Westeros. What she said what that her own life was no life at all. None of it is a confession. Was it harsh? Was it venomous? Was it twisting the emotional dagger into Dany's emotions wounds? Yup, totally. Is it a confession? Nope.

If Mirri is guilty of what she's accused of, I find it contain the worst series of plot holes. But only because Dany cannot look back or she's lost, because what she asked for came with too high a price and not the result she wanted, and believes Mirri did it all on purpose, and still believes it (If I look back I'm lost), it must be so. Because dragons were born out of killing the woman she ordered to do what she wanted, somehow Dany must be right? She could have put someone else on the pyre and the dragons would have been born just as well.

Great post. Changed the way I viewed this topic

[Avlonnic]

I keep reading that in the conversation between Dany and Mirri after Rahego's death it was natural for Mirri to want to hurt Dany and that her assuming responsibility for Rhaego's death isn't a confession at all but a way of going out in style as she knew she was going to die anyway.

 

Why is Mirri as good as dead?

 

First the Dothraki have left during Dany's illness.  Whether days or several weeks ago the Khalasar has gone.  Eroeh was raped and murdered but no one came to take vengeance on Mirri for Drogo's death or to kill her out of simple cruelty or contempt for a Lamb woman.  The pitiful remnants of what was Drogo's khalasar apparently offer her no threats of or actual harm itself, there is no lynch mob calling for her head, no apparent mistreatment at all.  She comes and goes as freely as any other member of the Khalasar and if her future is very uncertain so is the future of every man, woman and child left behind.

 

Second, Dany actually trusts her and does not hold her responsible for what happened.  She can't know that yet but the behaviour of Jorah and Dany's handmaidens suggest that they believe Jorah bringing her into the tent was to blame for Rahego's death.  Surely she has a cast iron excuse here?  She warned her over and over that no one could enter the tent, that the dead would dance and the living must not enter.  It seems the logical and easy thing to do to blame Jorah's well-meaning mistake, to blame his intervention for causing the spell to backfire.  A humble, contrite and sorrowful Mirri could easily pretend to feel sorrow even anguish over this and Dany would not focus her fury on her.

 

I don't buy the argument that Mirri owned the murder of a unborn baby to the mother's face while being innocent of any wrongdoing.  What - she just felt like taking the blame and dying for it?  Dany to some extent valued her healing skills and trusted her and Mirri could have appealed to that.  This thread has been a great read but ultimately I don't believe Mirri's vitriol and satisfaction mask a clear conscience.  Mirri knew the price.

 

You make a very nice observation in that it appeared Mirri Maz Duur had freedom of movement and an ambiguous future after the khals left. 

 

Full disclosure:  I am not convinced that Mirri intentionally damaged either Drogo or Rhaego.  In her defense, we have no idea what the outcome might have been had Jorah and the pregnant Dany remained outside the tent as emphatically directed.  Dany's first actions should have been to post guards and make it clear no one was to enter the tent.

 

We have several instances where people took credit for deeds they did not do.  The comparisons between Mirri's statement and those of Tyrion and Lord Manderly are intriguing. Tyrion cannot change the fact that Joffrey is dead.  But he does speak about Joffrey's shortcomings and that the kingdom was far better without him as tyrannical king.  Then he falsely confesses to evoke a painful reaction.  Lord Manderly cannot change the death of Walder Frey but his words imply both that the boy is better off dead (and the world is better off without him growing up), and that he, Manderly, might have been involved - again, to trigger a painful reaction.  Likewise, Mirri's words detail that the world is better off without a grown Stallion uniting the khals in raping and reaving and slaving.  But she never says she killed Drogo or Rhaego; some things were out of her control so she attributes the final outcome to the stupidity and cruelty of the Dothraki (and Dany/Jorah) and the ultimate decision of The Great Shepherd.

 

There is also an instance where someone successfully antagonized his captor to hasten his execution, thereby avoiding death by burning.  Did Mirri have a premonition or dream about her death?  Did she see a vision in the flames?  We don't have her point of view. 

 

All of that said, however, there is another detail that I have not seen mentioned that supports your position somewhat, although I hesitate to mention it only because I am unconvinced of Mirri's culpability in the ultimate outcome/deaths of Drogon and Rhaego.  Note: This is just my understanding of the text and there is enough accountability to be shared by Mirri, Dany, the Dothraki, Jorah, and everyone in the chapter. 

• GOT, Dany VIII, Mirri:  "There is a spell." Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. "But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson."
• The World Book Of IAF, The Bones and Beyond:  "Yet the population of Asshai is no greater than that of a good-sized market town...
  And there are no children in Asshai."

We are left to wonder about the painful price Mirri paid for her lessons in Asshai.  We know a sacrifice must be painful and costly - and the cost is determined by what each requestor values and can afford.  There are no children in Asshai and the population is unnaturally limited.  So Mirri either lost someone who meant the most to her or she lost a child of her own.

 

Let's note, however, there is no evidence that Mirri knew the baby would die nor that she wanted such a thing at time of the decision.  When Dany ordered Mirri to proceed, Dany seemed determined to sacrifice anyone, including herself, in her desperation to save Drogo.  As the blood begins to flow, however, she tries to crawl to the tent to stop Mirri because she has determined the 'price is too high.'  But it is too late.  It is not the only time Dany acts like this.  For instance, in the rape of the Lamb People, she first says (paraphrasing) 'This is what war looks like. This is the price of the iron throne. I will harden my heart...anything I have to do for the throne.'  A few minutes later, the wailing of the rape victims influences her to rethink her position and start 'claiming' (rescuing) female slaves.  

[Avlonnic]

Oops.  Be back in a few to edit.

[Lady Sharya]

And again, just because Mirri lost a whole lot after being sacked by two Dothraki hordes doesn't mean it's the end of the world. She has every right to want to exact vengeance but her belief that life means nothing now that she has nothing is dumb. There are plenty of other characters that have lost more than her and they manage to carry on. Mirri doesn't have to play nice but she doesn't have to view Dany as an enemy either. She doesn't give Dany the benefit of the doubt.

Okay, this is going too far into victim blaming and discounting for my taste. There is absolutely no reason for Mirri to NOT view Dany as the enemy. Was she and her people set free to go home by Dany? Or were they on their way to Slavers Bay to be sold into slavery to get the funds for a Westerosi invasion? Who are these "plenty of other characters that have lost more than her" that gives justification to say her reaction to the Dothraki's slaughter and distruction of her people, village & temple and her subsequent gang rape and captivity IS dumb? What the heck is a justification for thinking Dany was owed the benifit of doubt for anything?

Edit: I empore anyone thinking this way to mentally remove Dany from that story and replace her with an anonomous character with no POV and see how this presents.

[LmL]

Okay, this is going too far into victim blaming and discounting for my taste. There is absolutely no reason for Mirri to NOT view Dany as the enemy. Was she and her people set free to go home by Dany? Or were they on their way to Slavers Bay to be sold into slavery to get the funds for a Westerosi invasion? Who are these "plenty of other characters that have lost more than her" that gives justification to say her reaction to the Dothraki's slaughter and distruction of her people, village & temple and her subsequent gang rape and captivity IS dumb? What the heck is a justification for thinking Dany was owed the benifit of doubt for anything?

Edit: I empore anyone thinking this way to mentally remove Dany from that story and replace her with an anonomous character with no POV and see how this presents.

 

I was wondering this too. MMD had her entire village burned, killed, raped, enslaved, or some combination of those. That's pretty effing bad. 

[Lord Wraith]

Okay, this is going too far into victim blaming and discounting for my taste. There is absolutely no reason for Mirri to NOT view Dany as the enemy. Was she and her people set free to go home by Dany? Or were they on their way to Slavers Bay to be sold into slavery to get the funds for a Westerosi invasion? Who are these "plenty of other characters that have lost more than her" that gives justification to say her reaction to the Dothraki's slaughter and distruction of her people, village & temple and her subsequent gang rape and captivity IS dumb? What the heck is a justification for thinking Dany was owed the benifit of doubt for anything?

Edit: I empore anyone thinking this way to mentally remove Dany from that story and replace her with an anonomous character with no POV and see how this presents.

 

Well depends in you think MMD was working with Marwyn. He certainly doesn't seem like an enemy to Dany.

[RoamingRonin]

Okay, this is going too far into victim blaming and discounting for my taste. There is absolutely no reason for Mirri to NOT view Dany as the enemy. Was she and her people set free to go home by Dany? Or were they on their way to Slavers Bay to be sold into slavery to get the funds for a Westerosi invasion? Who are these "plenty of other characters that have lost more than her" that gives justification to say her reaction to the Dothraki's slaughter and distruction of her people, village & temple and her subsequent gang rape and captivity IS dumb? What the heck is a justification for thinking Dany was owed the benifit of doubt for anything?

Edit: I empore anyone thinking this way to mentally remove Dany from that story and replace her with an anonomous character with no POV and see how this presents.

 

I said in my post that Mirri has every right to want to exact vengeance on the Dothraki however she should still give Dany the benefit of the doubt. Arya has lost for more than Mirri but she still managed to find some sort of sympathy for the Hound. And then we have characters like Davos and Gilly who managed to keep on going despite all of their setbacks. I never said Mirri should accept the horrors inflicted upon her. I only said Mirri should view Dany differently than she does the rest of the Dothraki horde. 

[Avlonnic]

sweetsunray's analysis spoiled for length [spoiler]

There's no denying that Mirri performed a blood magic ritual. But there is no evidence that she targeted Dany's child. There were dead spirits in the tent. Once Dany was carried inside, the dead spirits claimed Rhaego for the sacrifice. It seems to me that once the spirits are summoned they act like a vortex. 

 

The Dothraki were hostile to any type of non-Dothraki healing. I get the impression they'd even call a maester a maegi. And it's little surprise Drogo's bloodriders would become violent for anyone to use magic on their Khal. Even the whole violent episode outside the tent does not fall outside what was to be expected as a reaction. It surprised Dany they started to stone her for it... but the way they were hostile from the start it isn't. Still, even without magic violence and agression has an almost "magical" ability to jump from one to the other in real life. It's not magical in real life of course, but it can spread like wildfire in the right conditions, pulling everyone in, indeed like a vortex (just have to point to the mob in KL). The scene is ambiguous enough to suggest that perhaps the spirits in the tent egged the "air" on for mob violence.

 

And it is that Mirri knew imo. She knew that the blood ritual and spirits would demand more blood. She did not know which blood, but there would be more. This was the reason that Mirri explictly ordered Dany out beforehand and telling her not to enter once the singing started for no reason. That she did this should be evidence enough that she had no intention of killing Rhaego. It defies all logic for Mirri to order her out if she intended to abort Rhaego. If she wanted to con Dany for that, she would have conned her into staying. Mirri was clear enough about it that Dany indeed tried to tell Jorah not to carry her in.

 

I don't think Rhaego was even targeted by the spirits, not until she fell and the fall and anxiety induced labour. On top of that the Dothraki healers refused to help her. Those mud smearing Dothraki healers refused to help her, because they called her cursed. I doubt that was caused by Mirri or the dead spirits in the tent.

 

From the get go, the whole plot shows free will after free will by others that led to Dany ending up in the tent.

 

• Drogo drinking milk of the poppy which would have tarried the healing process (and there's for Drogo not being that "macho" about pain after all). This is Drogo's decision.
• Then the poultice did what Mirri had told him beforehand - it would itch and burn. He ripped it off and had bacteria filled mud packed on it, because it feels more soothing. This is Drogo's decision and free will, and it the reason why developed gangrene (near the heart, no less)
• Dany asks Mirri whether she doesn't know some magical way to save his life, and despite the contrary advice against it, she orders Mirri to do it. This is Dany's decision.
• Mirri warns her not to enter the tent, not for any reason. It's Jorah who decides to carry her in. This is Jorah's decision.
• The bloodriders behave violent to Dany, shove her. These are the bloodriders' decisions. Qotho said he would kill her.
• The Dothraki start to pelt Dany with stones. These are the Dothrakis' decisions.
• Dany's labor begins and the birthing women refuse to help her.  They say she's cursed. These are the Dothraki healers' decisions.
• Irri and Doreah urge Jorah to carry her to the maegi. And Jorah carries her in.

 

Nowhere is it ever Mirri's decision. Meanwhile

• Mirri performs all the necessary medical steps: she removes the arrow, disinfects the wound with boiling alcohol, she puts a pale green paste on the wound, before covering it with his flap of skin. Both the color and the related healing symptoms suggest that what she smeared on him was a disinfectant or anti-inflamatory... If any germ got into the wound anyhow, the paste would have killed it. Yes, and on an open wound it would cause a burning sensation; heck even non-broken skin. Any women out there who have ever applied a facial mask? Some of those feel hot, burning and itchy... it's because of disinfecting stuff in the product. She later says she made a paste of "firepod" and "sting-me-not". The latter sounds something like nettles, which would have anti-inflamatory effects. The firepod sounds like it might have the same purpose. Usually wounds contain both aerobe as well as anaerobe germs. Both need to be tackled, not just the one time, but as long as the wound is open.
• Mirri gives all the necessary medical advice to help it heal fast, explains that there will be a burning sensation and itching (actually itching is a common sign of skin healing anyway)
• Mirri states the most obvious - with the gangrene on his chest and it already having affected his general vitality and consciousness implies it's in his blood system for all his body. Drogo is dying.
• She confirms she knows a blood magic ritual that may heal his gangrene, but she warns her that it's hard, dark, and death would be cleaner. She also mentions she paid dear for the lesson in Ashai. And she mentions only death can pay for life.
• She tellls Dany to go outside, who initially refuses to go. Mirri says she must. She informs that powers dark and old will be conjured up, that the dead will dance inside, and no one living must look at them.

The accusations against Mirri

• That she cursed Drogo with some malicioius spell in her temple. And yet she used no magic, but common medical tools. We know that spells don't work that easily. Spells come with a price. Mirri performed no physical sacrifice for any spell to work. On top of that, there was no comet yet and dragons weren't yet born. Magic was still weak. And gods aren't real either. It's common in most healing of religious cultures to utter prayers while applying medical procedures. Even Christians did this not so long ago. It's superstition. Even if Mirri said stuff like "let it not work at all," then her words have no more power than Cat telling Jon it should have been him.
• That possibly she poisoned the poultice as some long con, so that Drogo would rip it off, and use Dothraki healer mud. Well the easiest way to con Drogo, without having a bloodrider tell you that her fate is tied to Drogo's fate, is to not offer any medical assistance at all. Or to apply some "soothing mud" full of germs, and do exactly the same thing that those Dothraki healers do. It wasn't poison that caused gangrene. He was blood poisoned by his own people. If you wish to poison someone, whether food or medicine, you won't use something that tastes awful or itches and burns.
• That she performed the magic with the specific intent to turn Drogo into a vegetable. Hello, he was dying. Silliest con ever - someone is hours away from dying, but the best revenge is to heal his body? And I think those arguments made about Drogo not being in an outright vegetative state, but possibly still physically traumatized and in recovery, and it was too early to make any such conclusion actually might be right. His body was basically completely shell shocked from the blood poisoning that ran throughout his body and brain.
• That she performed the magic with the specific intent to abort Rhaego. But all those involved leading up to Dany being carried into the tent make such a conclusion beyond begging the belief. Since when does Mirri have magical control over Drogo's bloodriders, over Dothraki hurling stones at Dany, over birthing women's opinions, over Irri, Doreah and Jorah? Furthermore, it would have been so easy for her to con Dany into staying if Mirri intended Dany to lose her child. Heck, she could have just do no ritual at all, be at her side for the birthing and botch it up. There is no evidence that Mirri wanted to kill Rhaego, not even a confesstion.
• It's argued that she confessed. She did nothing of the sort. What she said was that Dany knew. What she said was that Mirri was glad Rhaego would not grow up to be the Koeblai Khan of Essos and Westeros. What she said what that her own life was no life at all. None of it is a confession. Was it harsh? Was it venomous? Was it twisting the emotional dagger into Dany's emotions wounds? Yup, totally. Is it a confession? Nope.

If Mirri is guilty of what she's accused of, I find it contain the worst series of plot holes. But only because Dany cannot look back or she's lost, because what she asked for came with too high a price and not the result she wanted, and believes Mirri did it all on purpose, and still believes it (If I look back I'm lost), it must be so. Because dragons were born out of killing the woman she ordered to do what she wanted, somehow Dany must be right? She could have put someone else on the pyre and the dragons would have been born just as well. 

[/spoiler]

Crackpot warning.  This is pure speculation here.

 

     First, I have added sweetsunray's analysis at the top.  If we view the events through the prism of 'Mirri Maz Duur behaved as a healer doing her best for Dany, despite her contempt for the Dothraki', we might consider the possibility that Mirri saved Dany's life.  How? When Dany fell outside the tent, she went into labor.  Her symptoms may indicate she suffered placental abruption or the accidental tearing away of the placenta from the uterine wall due to the fall.  (Wikipedia states that placental abruption is a significant contributor to maternal mortality worldwide and that rapid, skilled treatment is required.  Symptoms may include: sudden-onset abdominal pain; contractions that don't stop and may follow so closely as to seem continuous; pain in the uterus/abdomen; vaginal bleeding; fetal distress; possible fetal damage due to lack of oxygen; fetal death; maternal shock, hemorrhage, bleeding into the abdomen, death.)  We know that Dany experienced something like this.  The baby seemed to be in distress - with the oxygen cut off, it was trying to 'claw its way out'.  Dany's recovery was too long to be a simple sudden delivery.  If her fall broke the placenta from the uterus, Mirri may have been the only chance Dany had. 

 

ETA: word

[LmL]

sweetsunray's analysis spoiled for length [spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Crackpot warning.  This is pure speculation here.

 

     First, I have added sweetsunray's analysis at the top.  If we view the events through the prism of 'Mirri Maz Duur behaved as a healer doing her best for Dany, despite her contempt for the Dothraki', we might consider the possibility that Mirri saved Dany's life.  How? When Dany fell outside the tent, she went into labor.  Her symptoms may indicate she suffered placental abruption or the accidental tearing away of the placenta from the uterine wall due to the fall.  (Wikipedia states that placental abruption is a significant contributor to maternal mortality worldwide and that rapid, skilled treatment is required.  Symptoms may include: sudden-onset abdominal pain; contractions that don't stop and may follow so closely as to seem continuous; pain in the uterus/abdomen; vaginal bleeding; fetal distress; possible fetal damage due to lack of oxygen; fetal death; maternal shock, hemorrhage, bleeding into the abdomen, death.)  We know that Dany experienced something like this.  The baby seemed to be in distress - with the oxygen cut off, it was trying to 'claw its way out'.  Dany's recovery was too long to be a simple sudden delivery.  If her fall broke the placenta from the uterus, Mirri may have been the only chance Dany had. 

 

ETA: word

 

That's an interesting idea. Applause for simply thinking of it. It's a good exercise to try to think of all the possible angles. I do think that George does a teensy bit of medical research when he invents plagues or strikes people ill. It doesn't seem like just "nebulous bleeding and sickness," so your line on inquiry here may have merit. That does sound a lot like what Dany was going through. 

 

I do think the question of why Jorah and Dany did not die, whjil eRhaego was severely effected by the shadow dance magic. That really seems to imply that Rhaego was targeted. I also do not think Dany would have needed to be in the tent for the shadows to claim Rhaego, although that is only speculation. The traumatic onset of pregnancy coincides with the shadow dance, so it has to be considered as a possible cause. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

I view those other things as "enchantments" more than magic. Similar, but on a smaller scale, and thus more easily controllable.  And we don't know enough about the wall to say which category it falls in.

I can see where your coming from, but how do we decide what counts as an "enchantment" and what gets to be "magic", objectively? Why is bringing someone from the brink of death more complex than magically transplanting appearances?

 

In any case, MMD thought her spell was repeatable, and predictable:

 

"I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson. My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands"

 

Fucking thank you. Magic is absolutely controllable and predictable - the Valyrians did just that for FIVE THOUSAND YEARS - that's a level of stability unseen in the real world, and their entire empire was based on predictable utilization of magic. They paved freaking roads, hundreds and thousands of miles of roads.

It doesn't get more controllable and predictable than paving roads with magic.

What George has been trying to say about this, I think, is just that this isn't a book version based on a D&D Magic system. No manna, no hit points, etc. There are people who know how to control magic and get predictable results - but those people are intentionally kept around the margins so it all SEEMS mysterious to everyone. It's the seeming that is crucial. He doesn't want to tell us how stuff works. He's certainly made it unpredictable in certain instances, or shown examples of people failing to control magic. That's realistic, IMO, as humans both succeed and fail when trying to harness the power of nature, or technology such as electricity, nuclear power, etc. But clearly, he's implying that some people do know how to control magic. It's not a total free for all... he's just keeping it behind a veil.

And then giving us clues to pierce the veil, in certain places. It's written so that we can all do just what we are doing - debate about how it works. But I really don't think the answer is that there is no answer. When someone gives you puzzle pieces, you should assume they can fit together and that the artist intends for us to try.

As I see it, GRRM's magic is an art; its something deeply intuitive and fluid, but can still be studied and learnt.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Fucking thank you. Magic is absolutely controllable and predictable - the Valyrians did just that for FIVE THOUSAND YEARS - that's a level of stability unseen in the real world, and their entire empire was based on predictable utilization of magic. They paved freaking roads, hundreds and thousands of miles of roads.

It's pretty much what I said in another thread. We know what cause earthquakes and we do know how to build houses that can stand them. But we cannot control those earthquakes.

MMD knew, imo, very well what she was doing and what could cause. She told Dany later, before the ritual that there are things she didn't know. It's not just chanting and sacrificing. She must have provoked something that caused what happened to Rhaego.

[Mithras]

I do think the question of why Jorah and Dany did not die, whjil eRhaego was severely effected by the shadow dance magic.

 

"Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him." Melisandre moved closer. "With another man, though . . . a man whose flames still burn hot and high . . . if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make . . ."

 

Rhaego’s life-fire was significantly brighter than Dany or Jorah. That is why the shadows were drawn to him. That is why there are no children in Asshai because any children born are sacrificed to work magic.

[Lord Wraith]

She must have provoked something that caused what happened to Rhaego.

 

MMD or Dany?

[LmL]

 

"Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him." Melisandre moved closer. "With another man, though . . . a man whose flames still burn hot and high . . . if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make . . ."

 

Rhaego’s life-fire was significantly brighter than Dany or Jorah. That is why the shadows were drawn to him. That is why there are no children in Asshai because any children born are sacrificed to work magic.

 

That's a cool idea, Mithras. Makes a certain amount of sense. 

[Orphalesion]

 

And again, just because Mirri lost a whole lot after being sacked by two Dothraki hordes doesn't mean it's the end of the world. She has every right to want to exact vengeance but her belief that life means nothing now that she has nothing is dumb. There are plenty of other characters that have lost more than her and they manage to carry on. Mirri doesn't have to play nice but she doesn't have to view Dany as an enemy either. She doesn't give Dany the benefit of the doubt.

 

Excuse me what? Daenerys at that point was nothing more than the (current) main squeeze of the leader of a band of murderers, rapists and pillagers. And Mirri's village was sacked because of Dany's wish to return to Westeros. Why should she give that person the benefit of the doubt only because Dany had decided on a whim to prevent Mirri from being raped even more than she already had been by making Mirri into her personal possession?

 

And Mirri lost her entire community, it was all either killed or marched away by the Dothraki to be slaves. She's a middle aged godswife alone in the middle of Essos, she can't be a priestess all alone in a heap of rubble. She has lost everything and all she has to look forward is service to that white haired child that saved her on a whim and might (for all Mirri knows) discard her on a similar whim.

 

Mirri has lost; her home, her community, her loved ones, her freedom, her purpose and her future, all because Daenerys wanted to conquer Westeros, true Daenerys did not understand at that point what war (especially the Dothraki version of it) entailed and once she learned that she started looking for other ways to accomplish her goals, but at that point Dany trusted Drogo and was at the very least okay with the abstract idea of what the Dothraki would be doing.

 

Of the characters you list (Arya, Gilly and Davos) none has lost as much as Mirri and all have at least some sort of drive that allows them to go on.

 

Arya is, perhaps, the closest match to Mirri in what she has lost; her home and her community. But Arya still has her freedom, a purpose (revenge for her family) and, and that is important, her youth. Mirri's was already apporacing the end of her life, it would be alost impossible for her to just start building a new one.

 

Gilly lost her family and home, but actively gained freedom, a future and a purpose (to protect and raise her child)

 

Davos; lost two of his sons, I don't even want to imagine the pain that entails, but he still has the rest of his family and most of his old life, including his purpose to serve Stannis (as stupid as that is)

 

Plus, she killed the Stallion that Mounts the World. She is right, now Drogo's spawn won't burn any cities.