Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[ShadowCat Rivers]

So, these people think that Mirri somehow caused:

 

Dany to bring Drogo to her for treatment.

Drogo to refuse to wear the poultice.

Drogo to drink milk of the poppy when it is contraindicated for festering wounds.

 

Drogo to put mud (which has to be largely "wet horseshit" in a Dothraki camp) on his wound.

Anaerobic batcteria to reproduce in his wound sealed from air with horseshit

Dany to choose to use blood magic after everyone, including Mirri, told her it was not a good idea, with Mirri specifically telling her that it would have a high cost and unsatisfactory results.

Drogo's blood rider to assault Dany and cause her premature labor

Jorah to carry Dany into the tent.

Damn, Bloodraven has nothing on Mirri's ability to be in control of multiple plot elements.

 

Exactly, and thank you for expressing it so clearly.

[Lady Sharya]

I really hate it when people choose to express their opinion via the phrase "there is nothing in the text to suggest" or "there is no evidence for..." That's totally unnecessary and just plain old not accurate.

Really? Well I can't be bothered to read the rest of a post that begins with attacking my choice of words before it even begins to address the meaning behind them.

[SeanF]

Jon Con's Red Beard

 

It's a brilliant piece of writing, because I sympathise so much with both of them.

 

Mirri was surely entitled to revenge after what had been done to her, her friends, and her neighbours.  And, Dany, however unintentionally, bears a part of the blame for that.

 

But, we also sympathise with Dany, because she was absolutely horrified by what she witnessed at the village, and did her best to stop it (but her best wasn't good enough).

[sweetsunray]

Come on Sweetsunray, it worked? It left him a vegetable. I mean, the spell worked in that it did exactly what MMD intended... "See what life is worth when all the rest is gone." MMD always intended a vegetable, and that's what she got. Drogo was not home anymore. How is that any better than death? It's not, especially in a Khalasar. Vegetable Drogo is as good as dead, from the perspective of Dany and the Khalasar.

 

Hindsight talk when accused of being able to manipulate cause and effect of a whole khalasar and your life forfeit anyway because of that complete irrational belief is not evidence as a confession to me.

 

Yup, it left him a sort of vegetable-horse or something. But his wounds were healed. While the "mud" of the savages caused the gangrene.

 

It's blood magic, true. It's dark magic. But it did its job, insofar that MMD warned Dany. She did say it would be better to just let him die. The Dothraki are poor healers, with barely much of a culture. They put mud on wounds, seal it off from air! Anything is better than that. And their opinion on healer skills are completely ridiculous. 

[LmL]

Fuck yes, thank you.
 
It makes me very sick how defensive people get about a woman who practically told another one "I'm so glad you had an abortion because you deserved it" on her face, after such abortion happened just because they don't like that one character.
 
Is that ok? Telling women "I'm glad you abort"? Is it sensitive? That doesn't trigger any feelings? Is allowed in this board? :dunno:
 
What happened to MMD was a tragedy. It's understandable, as you said, that she wanted revenge. Anyone of us would have, probably. But there is nothing heroic about her actions despite many have, in this board, called her such. Sick.

That's more or less how I see it. I don't understand the need to say it was all Dany's fault or none at all - clearly she had something to do with it, and clearly MMD was pleased Drogo and Rhaego died (I'm calling Drogo dead, sorry, but vegetable status is as good as dead IMO). George wrote a complex and nuanced story here - multiple factors at play. For those who want to blame Dany, should we consider she's started as a 13 year old slave, sold into a culture which is totally foreign? By the end of AGOT, she had done a lot better for herself, but Drogo was her only security, her only safety. It's at least somewhat understandable that she was desperate to save him.

Similarly, MMD's motives for revenge are clear, and clearly spoken by her. I'd want the same, in her position. Now, would I use black magic and shit? No, but that's pretty much a general rule for me in any situation. What MMD did was "evil," sure. Absolutely.

Again, this is a complex scenario that Martin created, where every character's actions are somewhat justifiable in their own mind. Even the blood riders who would have killed Dany and MMD might have been doing the right thing, by preventing the abomination ceremony from occurring. They were looking out for Drogo, as was their duty, and preventing the desecration of his soul (from their pov). Martina apes so much effort to write the story this way.... It doesn't behoove us to render black and white judgement on situations like this. Every person has to be analyzed for their own motivations and actions.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

That didn't happen. She said she knew blood magic, Dany said she really was a maegi, mmd said "only a maegi can save your khal now".

 

It certainly did happen:

Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heels and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night. "There is a spell." Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. "But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson.

 

Unless we call this too "reverse psychology manipulation" and attribute her with omniscience and omnipotence, in which case she would have used her amazing skills to manipulate the Dothraki to leave her alone, maybe, just maybe?

[sweetsunray]

Drogo seemed to handle pain well. He sent all the healers to heal his fighters before him, and his wounds seemed painful.

 

I pointed out that men respond differently to long-term aches and discomfort. Men can bite away strong, sudden pain. But itching and burning and aching is different... That's why Drogo can bite away the pain of a fresh wound, and a flap of skin hanging loose, but can't even stand 10 days of itchiness and burning sensation, and prefers bacteria infested soothing mud.

[LmL]

Hindsight talk when accused of being able to manipulate cause and effect of a whole khalasar and your life forfeit anyway because of that complete irrational belief is not evidence as a confession to me.
 
Yup, it left him a sort of vegetable-horse or something. But his wounds were healed. While the "mud" of the savages caused the gangrene.
 
It's blood magic, true. It's dark magic. But it did its job, insofar that MMD warned Dany. She did say it would be better to just let him die. The Dothraki are poor healers, with barely much of a culture. They put mud on wounds, seal it off from air! Anything is better than that. And their opinion on healer skills are completely ridiculous.

True enough, the Dothraki seem to be pretty primitive as far as healing goes, I don't think that's in dispute. The point of the OP, I thought, was to make clear that MMD intended Drogo to be a vegetable, and intended Rhaego to die, and I think those conclusions are well supported.

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

It's Dany's fault because she ordered her slave to do it.

Period.

[LmL]

Can I just say that anyone who wants to claim that MMD did everything she could to save Drogo in good faith after he raped and burned everyone she ever knew is attributing a state of grace to MMD that borders on sainthood. I find that a little hard to believe. Again, short of Jesus Christ himself, who has that much forgiveness for someone like Drogo, after what he did?

How could she NOT seek revenge, given the opportunity? Isn't that far more of a stretch than the idea that MMD's shadow magic was already affecting Dany outside the tent?

[sweetsunray]

True enough, the Dothraki seem to be pretty primitive as far as healing goes, I don't think that's in dispute. The point of the OP, I thought, was to make clear that MMD intended Drogo to be a vegetable, and intended Rhaego to die, and I think those conclusions are well supported.

 

I was responding to the post that claimed the Dothraki were so right about MMD. They were wrong. If they hadn't been such stupid healers inflicting gangrene on their patients, and not irrationally suspicious of MMD, then Drogo wouldn't have had the poultice replaced with mud and drink milk of the poppy.

[Lady Sharya]

As for GRRM's words on it - he can't outright say it wasn't MMDs fault. Dany counts MMD as one of the treasons of the HotU predictions throughout the books so far. Dany's wondering about all the other two treasons, never questioning the first (and most readers theorizing on the HotU prophecies count MMD as a treason as well). But it's a red herring. And it makes Dany kindof blind to other treasons that might occur (or she herself may commit) that she already dismissed as having occurred before with MMD.

This is a good point because Mirri being Dany's first betrayal doesn't really sit well. A red herring makes sense to overlook a real one.

[Nights Kings Queen]

It's Dany's fault because she ordered her slave to do it.
Period.

And yet Dany on a number of occasions dany had to be reminded that Mirri was a slave. Even by Mirri herself.
Dany didn't think of MMD as her slave. Period.
(But I can already see where you stand in this matter from your user name and avatar).

[LmL]

I was responding to the post that claimed the Dothraki were so right about MMD. They were wrong. If they hadn't been such stupid healers inflicting gangrene on their patients, and not irrationally suspicious of MMD, then Drogo wouldn't have had the poultice replaced with mud and drink milk of the poppy.

That's possible, but we can't be certain. Ordinarily, if MMDs motives weren't in question, yes of course she's the far better healer. But given that she had every reason to want Drogo dead... how can we assume the poultice wasn't malicious or poisoned? We can't.

[sweetsunray]

Can I just say that anyone who wants to claim that MMD did everything she could to save Drogo in good faith after he raped and burned everyone she ever knew is attributing a state of grace to MMD that borders on sainthood. I find that a little hard to believe. Again, short of Jesus Christ himself, who has that much forgiveness for someone like Drogo, after what he did?

How could she NOT seek revenge, given the opportunity? Isn't that far more of a stretch than the idea that MMD's shadow magic was already affecting Dany outside the tent?

 

She's a priestess of the Lhazareen - peaceful lamb people... kind of the Essos version of Jesus followers. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Really? How do you feel about a woman who wishes that an innocent child to be dead?

 

Depend on who are you talking?

 

Those who have never wished ANYONE dead, please, stone me now. Because it's human nature. I have definitely wished a lot of people suffer terrible fates.

 

In any way, that is not my point.

 

Was MMD justified in wishing revenge? No one denies it. She was not even obligated to see Dany as a "saviour" as she wanted to be. Had she been dreaming every night of her and her baby dead would have been natural and understandable.

 

Is ok. for us to feel good about Cersei's walk of shame? No one denies she got it coming after all of her actions. As readers, we feel she finally gets her comeuppance. But it's a cruel punishment. We, as readers, feel she's been punished for the things WE KNOW she has done. Even Cersei feels that way (as she sees Ned, Robert, Arya, etc). But that wasn't the motivation of the HS: the HS wanted to humiliate her and put her on her place. That's why it's hard to enjoy it. Because he did it for all the wrong reasons.

 

She is been punished, in text, for being a woman.

 

Dany didn't order Drogo to go and take slaves. If we can blame her for anything, is for the fact she didn't understand what an invasion to Westeros implied. That's what changes  her as a character: that's the moment she realises what slavery really means, and that's why she later start a campaign to try to abolish slavery. That is why she tries to save Eroeh and MMD. Because that's the only thing she can do about it to rectify it. She has no more power.

 

And then, she aborts. Whatever caused this, it happened to her. And MMD gloated on it.

 

What if Dany had been instead, being raped? Was ok. for MMD to say "I'm glad I had a part on it because I was also raped and you deserved it"?

 

What would be the position of this board had Dany had been raped instead of miscarrying? Would MMD's words would also feel powerful and earned?

 

A rape is an event committed in your body against your will

A miscarriage or an abortion is an event that happened in your body against your will.

 

MMD is placing herself in a way in which she puts her actions as causing such abortion. She puts herself in the position of being the one who committed a crime against another woman's body, something that someone did to her.

 

A rape is not the only terrible thing that can happen to a woman's body. Losing a child can be equally devastating. And it has been for Dany, as we've seen through three books. MMD celebrates it as much as many other posters celebrate her words. And she celebrates too the fact she cannot have more children anymore: she celebrates the mutilation of a woman's body because she assumes any child of her will cause harm.

 

A CRIME COMMITTED AGAINST THE BODY OF A WOMAN GETS CELEBRATED AND JUSTIFIED BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE SUCH WOMAN.

 

Maybe I should comment, for the Nth time, that one time my government ordered the sterilization of 300.000 Andean women and the people who, up to this day in 2015, keeps justifying this because "those women could have never been able to raise those children properly: they would have ended up being thieves/terrorists".

 

Both MMD and Dany are victims: they both were very much treated like slaves, and their bodies were objects of trade by others. MMD tried to get out of that victimhood through other woman's humiliation and mutilation.

 

Honestly, I dunno what you meant by your question. If you meant Dany, she hasn't yet killed any children and say "aaaah... I did this and you totally deserve it!!!". She gets blamed for all the things she feels she's right to do but she hasn't yet done: she hasn't gone and killed Arya or Sansa because "your father was an usurper!!". I can also go and say I want to kill a lot of people I dislike but they can jail me for.

[Nights Kings Queen]

She's a priestess of the Lhazareen - peaceful lamb people... kind of the Essos version of Jesus followers.

Yet in the end, she showed no peaceful traits.
A women who said the stuff MMD said, and did the stuff MMD claimed to do, cannot be described as "peaceful" in my opinion.

[LmL]

She's a priestess of the Lhazareen - peaceful lamb people... kind of the Essos version of Jesus followers.

Yeah.... I feel you... But not quite. Again, her speech to Dany afterwards was no Jesus or Ghandi rap. That's was a "see, know you know what it's like" and "I'm glad your child is dead, because he would have been a monster" speech. It doesn't fit with the unconditional forgiveness of your rapists and the murderers of your people.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

So now it depends... Only people who someone likes are capable to say whatever they want without any retribution because of what? Cat wished Jon to die, MMD did the same and taunt Dany with this death but in the text we have nothing to prove that she actually did something, I see no difference.

[Nights Kings Queen]

Depend on who are you talking?
 
Those who have never wished ANYONE dead, please, stone me now. Because it's human nature. I have definitely wished a lot of people suffer terrible fates.
 
In any way, that is not my point.
 
Was MMD justified in wishing revenge? No one denies it. She was not even obligated to see Dany as a "saviour" as she wanted to be. Had she been dreaming every night of her and her baby dead would have been natural and understandable.
 
Is ok. for us to feel good about Cersei's walk of shame? No one denies she got it coming after all of her actions. As readers, we feel she finally gets her comeuppance. But it's a cruel punishment. We, as readers, feel she's been punished for the things WE KNOW she has done. Even Cersei feels that way (as she sees Ned, Robert, Arya, etc). But that wasn't the motivation of the HS: the HS wanted to humiliate her and put her on her place. That's why it's hard to enjoy it. Because he did it for all the wrong reasons.
 
She is been punished, in text, for being a woman.
 
Dany didn't order Drogo to go and take slaves. If we can blame her for anything, is for the fact she didn't understand what an invasion to Westeros implied. That's what changes  her as a character: that's the moment she realises what slavery really means, and that's why she later start a campaign to try to abolish slavery. That is why she tries to save Eroeh and MMD. Because that's the only thing she can do about it to rectify it. She has no more power.
 
And then, she aborts. Whatever caused this, it happened to her. And MMD gloated on it.
 
What if Dany had been instead, being raped? Was ok. for MMD to say "I'm glad I had a part on it because I was also raped and you deserved it"?
 
What would be the position of this board had Dany had been raped instead of miscarrying? Would MMD's words would also feel powerful and earned?
 
A rape is an event committed in your body against your will
A miscarriage or an abortion is an event that happened in your body against your will.
 
MMD is placing herself in a way in which she puts her actions as causing such abortion. She puts herself in the position of being the one who committed a crime against another woman's body, something that someone did to her.
 
A rape is not the only terrible thing that can happen to a woman's body. Losing a child can be equally devastating. And it has been for Dany, as we've seen through three books. MMD celebrates it as much as many other posters celebrate her words. And she celebrates too the fact she cannot have more children anymore: she celebrates the mutilation of a woman's body because she assumes any child of her will cause harm.
 
A CRIME COMMITTED AGAINST THE BODY OF A WOMAN GETS CELEBRATED AND JUSTIFIED BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE SUCH WOMAN.
 
Maybe I should comment, for the Nth time, that one time my government ordered the sterilization of 300.000 Andean women and the people who, up to this day in 2015, keeps justifying this because "those women could have never been able to raise those children properly: they would have ended up being thieves/terrorists".
 
Both MMD and Dany are victims: they both were very much treated like slaves, and their bodies were objects of trade by others. MMD tried to get out of that victimhood through other woman's humiliation and mutilation.
 
Honestly, I dunno what you meant by your question. If you meant Dany, she hasn't yet killed any children and say "aaaah... I did this and you totally deserve it!!!". She gets blamed for all the things she feels she's right to do but she hasn't yet done: she hasn't gone and killed Arya or Sansa because "your father was an usurper!!". I can also go and say I want to kill a lot of people I dislike but they can jail me for.

:bowdown: